543 replies to this topic

[Why Run]

Ya'll confuse me, first it's IGP and PGI are not the same thing, so don't talk about how IGP is controlling PGI and what they do with the money they are separate entities. Now it's, IGP was controlling everything we did and we couldn't do what we wanted to do. Which is it? Furthermore, I'm most of all offended by the new Clan Pack, which they weren't designing, their words, but suddenly will be available at month end. SHOCKING. They move awfully quick when it comes to selling stuff, but they take 12 months to make a static map. How does this not piss each and every one of you off? How are we getting another dozen mechs and heros in the next month and a half, for MONEY, but they still can't get us core features or make substantive revisions to the mechanics, because that's too burdensome. Come on, do I look that stupid?

Edited by Why Run, 09 September 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 September 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Sorry to see you go, and to go so bitter.

PGI is a Game Development Studio. Not a Mechwarrior Studio, bro. To make money, they need to develop games. It sounds like they have had another backer for this for some time, so TBH, I don't see one really relating much to the other, but only time will tell. Hope if things go smoother over the next few months, you return for CW.

I know what you are saying here Bish, but shouldn't they at least Finish the first game before launching a new venture? Small Businesses need to build a reputation for good products. the DEVs haven't produced a full product yet.

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 09 September 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

I don't know about your one functioning arm so lets ignore that and look at it generally, according to you aiming is so easy that everyone should do it and do it exceptionally, yet we know this is not the case.

Everyone misses, everyone hits arms instead of torso's because we are human and the current and previous aiming mechanics are all about the human, something i know Roland will agree with me on, because i know he experienced it ( i don't know about you) but learning to lead targets to hit your desired panel rather than just hit the mech in general is definitely not point and click pixel work.......remember those days of shooting Clan Gauss and Light Gauss at obscene engine busting view distance Roland?
Was that point and click simply point and click?

I don't get defensive per se, i just have a different viewpoint, one that i would say is more rational than yours on this topic, because there is more to it than point and click, these aren't MW4 Lasers.

Honestly, yeah I do feel it is point and click. Saying something is too easy is not he same as saying it's a given. But a jumping mech moving at full speed, simply should have a heck of a lot of trouble nailing another moving mech, 1K out. Barring lovely hit reg issues, it's not that hard to hit even a light mech with reasonable accuracy.

On the other hand, I think people dismiss a degree of randomness out of hand, without being willing to give it a fair shot. For instance, a PPC in Btech had a MAX range of 540 meters. Not because the beam magically stopped, but because the computers could not give an accurate firing solution past that. Yet ours can fire (for reduced dmg) to 1000+ meters.

Reasonably, a shot past it's optimal range, SHOULD have a degree of randomness. Reasonably, a shot taken from a Jumping mech shaking like a 7.0 earthquake, should have a degree of randomness, and that randomness should take a tick to subside even after the shaking, as the computers and servos line up. Reasonably, when your computer boards are cooking from pegging your heat scale to the extreme for extended periods, they glitch, and think sliek HUD fuzz make sense. And reasonably, even with a steadycam gyro harness, a running person does not land shots with millimetric accuracy. Even on smooth terrain.

You dislike like it because you don't like a hint of random in your game. My PoV is this: In life, combat, shooting etc, there is ALWAYS random. (Mind you, I should say by "reasonably, in my experience with weaponry, heavy equipment and yes, in my opinion. )

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 09 September 2014 - 10:18 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Jody Von Jedi, on 09 September 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure in one of the NGNG podcasts with Paul, the whole 3PV was forced on them by IGP. He didn't say it outright, but he said the "investor" forced it on them. I can only imagine that was IGP.

The developer implements things, but the publisher often pulls the strings.

That is why I blame the poor execution of Mass Effect 3 on EA and not on Bioware. It felt like an incomplete game that EA forced out the door to boost some quarterly profit report. I bet if Bioware had it their way, ME3 would have been a much better product.

So, how much of what we have (concerning MWO) is IGP and how much is PGI, I don't know *shrug*. I am willing to bet a lot of it was IGP telling PGI what to do.

I think we will have a better idea how true that is over the next few months.

[NextGame]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 September 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Was nothing snide about it. What you choose to read into is your problem, I suppose. I acknowledged the part of your post I felt had validity. That got your pantie sin a bunch. Deal with it. You are dismissed.

It was incredibly snide, as are many of your comments to other posters in this particular thread. Hypocritical given your comments about the toxicity of the forum, and I think I recall a mention about it being a cancer or something in there.

You can't have it selectively, where it applies to everyone who doesn't share your point of view but not otherwise. Either people discourse in a reasonable and adult way (and yes, this cannot be a one sided thing of white knights vs everyone else, it requires effort from all quarters), or the community continues as is and has been for the past 2 years, full steam ahead. What's it to be?

Edited by NextGame, 09 September 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[GeminiWolf]

I love finding a post which states what I have been thinking. I'm one of those people that has a hard time expressing myself on this medium without it being torn a part and taken the wrong way. So when I find a post like this that I 100% agree with, it makes me feel as if my thoughts on things are expressed. Thanks Mr. Bishop

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 September 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

I know what you are saying here Bish, but shouldn't they at least Finish the first game before launching a new venture? Small Businesses need to build a reputation for good products. the DEVs haven't produced a full product yet.

Nope. They hired staff specifically for that. When someone comes to you, you either jump on it, or you lose, my man. Game development is dog eat dog. Even with this under development in secret for the last 9 months, only thing we really saw was no one knew what had happened to Bryan, lol. Reality is, while the cycle is slower than we like (and too slow for some to accept, apparently) they have accomplished more, and communicated BETTER during the last 9 months while working on two titles than they did for all of 2013.

As for the sales...they bought out IGP of any rights to MW/Btech. They spent to the money, to get the creative freedom, they apparently felt was lacking under the oversight of a Outside Publishers bookkeepers, who unlike the Devs in this game, have no interest in the IP, at all. Publishers are the number one source for pushing sales over actual content, always have been. It appears that PGI used that mandate against IGP and used the sales to buy their freedom. I actually kinda appreciate that.

Now if the SAME pattern of 2013 resurfaces and continues, then indeed, it is on PGIs heads, no excuses.

Also, this is a perpetual, evolving F2P game. It is only finished when the servers go dark.

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 September 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

The developer implements things, but the publisher often pulls the strings.

That is why I blame the poor execution of Mass Effect 3 on EA and not on Bioware. It felt like an incomplete game that EA forced out the door to boost some quarterly profit report. I bet if Bioware had it their way, ME3 would have been a much better product.

So, how much of what we have (concerning MWO) is IGP and how much is PGI, I don't know *shrug*. I am willing to bet a lot of it was IGP telling PGI what to do.

I think we will have a better idea how true that is over the next few months.

Ugh, always wondered if that is what happened with KOTR2....so much potential, mechanically 10x better than KOTR..... but the game itself was an unfinished mess.

[KingCobra]

Joseph Mallan said ( know what you are saying here Bish, but shouldn't they at least Finish the first game before launching a new venture? Small Businesses need to build a reputation for good products. the DEVs haven't produced a full product yet. )
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It really does not matter one way or the other IF MWO does not do a 360 and become closer to its roots in Battletech 3025 or MechWarrior 2-4 it will never have the player base or fan base the older games had. Especially without A huge social platform like the MSN gamming zone was to rebuild the community as a whole and leagues to support competitive and varied types of gameplay.

PGI will not admit MechWarrior was about a universe to role-play in a battlefield to fight with your pals and friends in a fun competitive way that hooked so many on the IP for so long.PGI thinks I can build stompy robots and do 12v12 Solaris style matches and build a community.

Well guess what PGI it just don't work that way for this IP it never did.

http://www.netbattletech.com/

Edited by KingCobra, 09 September 2014 - 10:12 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

KingCobra, on 09 September 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Joseph Mallan said ( I know what you are saying here Bish, but shouldn't they at least Finish the first game before launching a new venture? Small Businesses need to build a reputation for good products. the DEVs haven't produced a full product yet. )
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It really does not matter one way or the other IF MWO does not do a 360 and become closer to its roots in Battletech 3025 or MechWarrior 2-4 it will never have the player base or fan base the older games had. Especially without A huge social platform like the MSN gamming zone was to rebuild the community as a whole and leagues to support competitive and varied types of gameplay.

PGI will not admit MechWarrior was about a universe to role-play in a battlefield to fight with your pals and friends in a fun competitive way that hooked so many on the IP for so long.PGI thinks I can build stompy robots and do 12v12 Solaris style matches and build a community.

Well guess what PGI it just don't work that way for this IP it never did.

http://www.netbattletech.com/

You left out the "I" when you copied my quote. As you had it It sounded like I was reprimanding Bishop. That one letter makes a big difference.

[Bishop Steiner]

NextGame, on 09 September 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

It was incredibly snide, as are many of your comments to other posters in this particular thread. Hypocritical given your comments about the toxicity of the forum, and I think I recall a mention about it being a cancer or something in there.

You can't have it both ways, nor selectively. Either people discourse in a reasonable and adult way, or the community continues as is and has been for the past 2 years, full steam ahead. What's it to be?

The top 3/4 of your post said nothing terribly useful. The bottom part had some grains of truth, and I addressed those, and the misconceptions in it also. If that was "incredibly snide" I might recommend avoiding Online Forums, as you are apparently too sensitive.

As for my "multiple other snide replies" those are between me and certain posters, with whom I have quite a bit of history.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hope you are right Bishop. I confess to being quite OLD school in my thinking.

[WarHippy]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 September 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

I know what you are saying here Bish, but shouldn't they at least Finish the first game before launching a new venture? Small Businesses need to build a reputation for good products. the DEVs haven't produced a full product yet.

Well for me I think they should have held off on the new project until Q1 of next year assuming they finished with CW here. Had they finally pushed out CW and then announced in January that they were also starting this new project I would have been leery about it but also fine with it, however their timing on it here is really scummy if you ask me. I also have a hard time buying into the finger pointing at IGP as their current scape goat for why things have been the way they have been. They have a lot of bridge building to do for me to really give them the benefit of the doubt at this point.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 September 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Hope you are right Bishop. I confess to being quite OLD school in my thinking.

yeah, I seen the pics..the thinking might be old school....the rest I don't want pissed off at me in a dark alley.. (I think you might be scarier without your Atlas!)

WarHippy, on 09 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Well for me I think they should have held off on the new project until Q1 of next year assuming they finished with CW here. Had they finally pushed out CW and then announced in January that they were also starting this new project I would have been leery about it but also fine with it, however their timing on it here is really scummy if you ask me. I also have a hard time buying into the finger pointing at IGP as their current scape goat for why things have been the way they have been. They have a lot of bridge building to do for me to really give them the benefit of the doubt at this point.

Since the project was apparently pitches at Q4 last year, or Q1 this year, I would dare say, that "waiting til Q1" of next year would have cost them the gig. Since They hired new staff specifically for that (and one must assume with funding provided for that project, listening to russ describe int last night), in the end, it really has no impact on MWO, except a possible second revenue stream to keep PGI solvent, and thus MWO running.

[Jacmac]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

That is known as being a cancer. Cancer left alone, festers, and eventually kills a community and a game as surely as anything. To prevent that from happening to our community we need to try to support the efforts of Niko and the Mods, not fight them. If we try to minimize the unfounded negativity, and focus on constructive input, of both the good and the bad (as we perceive it), the general attitudes of the Forums, the Game and Community can change very rapidly, to a positive and welcoming experience for players, new and old. MWO has a good community, for the most part. With a few angry bad apples. But by and large, even those critical of the direction, or some decisions, are mostly positive contributions to the health of the Community.

If players can't say what they want to say on a forum, then they go somewhere else and say it (e.g. reddit). All you do by clamping down is drive the comments/posts to an alternative location that can't be clamped down. If that makes the forum owners and the majority of players on said forum happy, so be it. But you're not doing away with the 'cancer', you're just pushing it somewhere else.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 September 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

yeah, I seen the pics..the thinking might be old school....the rest I don't want pissed off at me in a dark alley.. (I think you might be scarier without your Atlas!)

Wouldn't see me coming in a dark alley Bro...

Thats my Niece with my Daughter's Axe.

[NextGame]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 September 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

The top 3/4 of your post said nothing terribly useful. The bottom part had some grains of truth, and I addressed those, and the misconceptions in it also. If that was "incredibly snide" I might recommend avoiding Online Forums, as you are apparently too sensitive.

As for my "multiple other snide replies" those are between me and certain posters, with whom I have quite a bit of history.

I think that you should consider that you are displaying exactly the opposite behaviour that you appear to want to promote.

Why do you get a free pass to fight with people you perceive to have a history with on a forum, while in your books people are not allowed to take issue with a developer that they may perceive themselves to have history with in the very same space?

It's the right place for this kind of stuff, or its the wrong place for all of it.

So again, which is it?

edit: amended something because I'm trying to be reasonable with *my* wording, as it is easier to use the dramatic option when writing on a forum, and years of forum commentary have led to this form of prose being the default.

Edited by NextGame, 09 September 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jacmac, on 09 September 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

If players can't say what they want to say on a forum, then they go somewhere else and say it (e.g. reddit). All you do by clamping down is drive the comments/posts to an alternative location that can't be clamped down. If that makes the forum owners and the majority of players on said forum happy, so be it. But you're not doing away with the 'cancer', you're just pushing it somewhere else.

That is true.


Players perhaps should learn to say what they want in a more respectful manner? And not try to force their opinions and perceptions on others? One actually does not have ANY right to free speech on a forum. And even in countries where the right in public is "guaranteed" there are consequences for abuse of it. If people consistently show they are only interested in sabotaging your business, one is totally in their rights to take action.

But at the end of the day, when outright lies, misrepresentation, and toxic vitriol are drowning out EVERYTHING, then the forums serve no purpose for ANYONE. And the Devs are hard pressed to strain through all the crap to find the 1-2 nuggets of wisdom buried under all the excrement.

Whether PGI succeeds or fails will be based on how they deliver product, not because of how much rage certain forum anarchists can inspire in those too lazy to look up the facts for themselves. I've read the reddits and other cesspools of idiocy. The reek of anger and desperation from certain members is truly sad. But if they insist on being odious, better there, where it doesn't stink up the whole house, then letting people take a crap in your kitchen.

Joseph Mallan, on 09 September 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Wouldn't see me coming in a dark alley Bro...

Thats my Niece with my Daughter's Axe.

never bring an axe to a gunfight.......

[Galenthor Kerensky]

Torgun, on 09 September 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

The funny thing is you don't even see how fall and dec 21st is not the same thing at all. Unless fall in Canada usually has snowstorms.

we had our first snowfall at least in my area of Canada yesterday... it was only enough to put a slight white coat on vehicles, and other wise melted as it hit the ground, but it counts...

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 September 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

never bring an axe to a gunfight.......

Words to survive by!

[Roland]

NextGame is right, you need to walk the walk if you're gonna talk the talk, Bishop.