48 replies to this topic

[CycKath]

Given the choice I would definitely favor lore heroes (Lore if All) even if it results increased costs, as lot of the more recent TT customs offer quite good variations compared to the standard variants, missing out of those is worse than if they don't come with DHS or an XL engine as stock.

[DAYLEET]

Lore or not you are required to upgrade your mech if he has not been upgraded. I do feel they should at least come with DHS. It IS a turn off to buy a hero with cash and then have to spend as much, cbills wise, on gear.

[EvilCow]

I would prioritize lore with the occasional invented hero not being a problem.

May I suggest some tweaks to the less lucky heroes? see Huggin for example, it simply does not work except in a very specific situation.

[Black Ivan]

So when will there be a heat system overhaut to bring double heat sinks to real 2.0 effectiveness and increase heatdissipation to make energy weapons comparable effectiv as ballistic weapons and missiles? Then I would by this Mech.

[NextGame]

Personally I don't mind, It's just cbills to upgrade them anyway. I'd like to see a continuation of a mixture of lore heros and PGI creations. If there was some kind of sticker on the sale picture to say "this is a lore hero" then great, but not really a big deal.

Edited by NextGame, 10 September 2014 - 01:35 AM.

[Shlkt]

For the most part I think players want the stock loadouts to remain lore-based but they feel cheated on the value since hero mechs are priced only by their "hero status" and not by the value of the components. In other words, a 50 ton hero costs the same MC whether it's got DHS + XL or a standard engine and no upgrades... and that doesn't seem fair.

To placate them you could either include a C-Bill package (which was previously suggested) to cover the cost of essential upgrades, or you could totally revamp hero mech pricing to be based on the value of underlying components and upgrades.

[General Taskeen]

Mcgral18, on 09 September 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Blame the lore, since both of these heroes are taken directly from it.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vindicator

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Griffin

I blame PGI for not adding a stock mode option from Day 1 where Lore Mechs bought out of the box can be used as is. Where Stock Mechs like that are on more equal footing against other Stock Mechs. Also, the really bad heat system, that rests on PGI.

[Mcgral18]

Black Ivan, on 10 September 2014 - 01:32 AM, said:

So when will there be a heat system overhaut to bring double heat sinks to real 2.0 effectiveness and increase heatdissipation to make energy weapons comparable effectiv as ballistic weapons and missiles? Then I would by this Mech.

With as mastered mech, if you have 17 or fewer DHS, you have true net 0.2 dissipation per DHS (with a 250 rated engine). At 18+, the buffed 0.2*1.15 can't keep up with the gimped 0.14, which causes you to get less than 0.2 dissipation per heatsink.


Would you like me to maths?

Edited by Mcgral18, 10 September 2014 - 07:51 AM.

[Jacon Ceronia]

Perhaps a middle ground, then? Lore for sure, but with slight upgrades where relevant. That, or reducing the price on low tech Heros?

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 09 September 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Blame the lore, since both of these heroes are taken directly from it.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vindicator

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Griffin

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battlemaster-I'm in Star League Era Vintage!

[SirLankyIII]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Those pointing out that this is lore based are 100% correct and honestly we felt the "value" for the customers was mostly in being true to lore in these situations. This is not the first person that has responded like this recently so it seems we have made an improper judgement on what the community wants. On the next hero mechs we will look for options on upgrading them rather than making them true to lore.

Stop me now if you feel the other way. Thanks for this input.

I quite like the lore hero mechs, and I'm sure the stock mech monday players like having the ability to of field "tier 1" lore based mechs (assuming that's in the rules). That said maybe it might be worth offering hero mechs with tier 1 tech at a reduce price compared to those with tier 2 tech. Something like 5 mc per tonne less for each upgrade the hero mech doesn't have, that way 100 tonne hero with no upgrades is 5500 mc vs 7500 mc for one with all 4 upgrades (you could arguably leave Artemis out since most of the cost is on the actual launchers). A differing price point might remove some of that sting of having to drop a chunk of c-bills on a hero mech that starts out vastly inferior to similarly priced mechs.

[Ted Wayz]

Please explain some of these comments as translated by me.

I want lore mechs even if it makes the Hero mechs for center mech types are less powerful than other Hero mechs. But please charge me the same price per ton as the Hero mechs that come kitted out with XL and DHS.

or

I don't mind paying c-bills to kit out a Lore mech to make it playable in general play. Even though it would cost less if it came kitted out to revert it through downgrades into a Lore mech. (Hint, hint: The hard points are all that matter)

Don't get me wrong, I spend mucho time in the mech lab. But at the same time I like value for my $$$. Kind of glad Russ and the majority of the players see the point.

[Enileph]

I don't think nero mech need to be extra powerful. I do agree that a good paintjob and some uniqueness is a good thing.

THAT HAVING SAID, I don't think adding DHS and Endo FOR FREE is even ANYTHING CLOSE TO P2W at all. It does save the buyer some cbills, yes, but that is about it. It might be a bit away from the lore, but it is basically the same mech with the upgrades that is only natural for any/most mech in a MWO game.

Any half way decent pilot would put DHS on the hero mech anyways, and quite likely Endo also. I mean, if you a lore junkie then you can pay to rip them out, but I CAN DEFINITELY BE SURE THAT 99% people buying a hero mech would have added the upgrades like DHS anyways. So why not save them a few cbills? This would make a few of us more likely to buy the hero mech, rather than waiting for them to be on sale at a good discount only.

If you are those weird ones that would run with SHS cause for "lore reasons" then, I hope you play on team matches between friends only. I took pity on ANY UNFORtUNATE pugs that has to be teamed with you, running on a mech that is not decently upgraded.

Give us the free upgrades for free!!! It cost almost nothing for PGI to do so, earns them most likely a few more MC with mech being sold at full price more ofter (hence income) and makes hero mech buyer happy. I think it is a win-win situation.

As for the weaker heros, a little upgrade in terms of either an extra mech module slot or maybe an extra hardpoint or so. An extra AMS or just a cheap energy hardpoint (or other types depending on the hero and the style) makes for a much more playable mech without being too powerful.

Example would be to give the haggen double missile hardpoints or an energy hardpoint for tag, for example, that would make the mech reasonable to use without being too over the top (now 3L can do the same thing, with ECM even if there is no JJ).

Edited by Enileph, 11 September 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Those pointing out that this is lore based are 100% correct and honestly we felt the "value" for the customers was mostly in being true to lore in these situations. This is not the first person that has responded like this recently so it seems we have made an improper judgement on what the community wants. On the next hero mechs we will look for options on upgrading them rather than making them true to lore.

Stop me now if you feel the other way. Thanks for this input.

A mix of Some true to Lore and some fresh ideas is the best choice. both sides get some of what they want.

[Bront]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Those pointing out that this is lore based are 100% correct and honestly we felt the "value" for the customers was mostly in being true to lore in these situations. This is not the first person that has responded like this recently so it seems we have made an improper judgement on what the community wants. On the next hero mechs we will look for options on upgrading them rather than making them true to lore.

Stop me now if you feel the other way. Thanks for this input.

You might be able to do both. The simple fix is to simply update all heroes with DHS (a required tech at this point), and simply sell it as an upgraded version of the lore mech. Sparky for example, if it had DHS but was otherwise identical would be fine (it should fit). Just that simple change would make most hero mechs that much more bearable, given DHS is, by many, including myself, simply a 1.5 million tax on getting a new IS mech, since there are only 2-3 mechs that can work well enough without DHS (the 5K Spider and 1V Locust).

I'm all for lore mechs, and the need to upgrade doesn't bother me much, but it would be nice to not have to worry about DHS in the mech, since I'll never go back (Unlike FF/Endo, which could potentially change, or an XL engine)

Edited by Bront, 11 September 2014 - 08:40 AM.

[Trevor Belmont]

I prefer to keep mechs as the were in lore. Let people upgrade them if they feel the need to do so.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Those pointing out that this is lore based are 100% correct and honestly we felt the "value" for the customers was mostly in being true to lore in these situations. This is not the first person that has responded like this recently so it seems we have made an improper judgement on what the community wants. On the next hero mechs we will look for options on upgrading them rather than making them true to lore.

Stop me now if you feel the other way. Thanks for this input.

I actually really appreciate lore based mechs. I bought Sparky the second it came out and have no regrets. Yeah you gotta customize it but the hardpoints are great on it.

[Garandos]

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Those pointing out that this is lore based are 100% correct and honestly we felt the "value" for the customers was mostly in being true to lore in these situations. This is not the first person that has responded like this recently so it seems we have made an improper judgement on what the community wants. On the next hero mechs we will look for options on upgrading them rather than making them true to lore.

Stop me now if you feel the other way. Thanks for this input.

Well, seems this time we are in agreement, i think lore friendly is the cooler way to go.

Yet i understand the other side, maybe a smart move would be to offer two variants, only different in equipment, a "lore version" which sticks true to the background, for those wo want that, and a "upgraded" variant, which simply gets the DHS/Endo/Ferro and leaves everything else untouched?

Grid Iron had a "special" variant too (and damn am im pissed that i missed that one -.-)
So why not keep going that way "Collectors Edition" with lore stats, "Powergamer" Version, with improved gear.

I think changing the items which are in the mech, is not that much of work or?

[DocBach]

Mcgral18, on 09 September 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Blame the lore, since both of these heroes are taken directly from it.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vindicator

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Griffin

Russ Bullock, on 09 September 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Those pointing out that this is lore based are 100% correct and honestly we felt the "value" for the customers was mostly in being true to lore in these situations. This is not the first person that has responded like this recently so it seems we have made an improper judgement on what the community wants. On the next hero mechs we will look for options on upgrading them rather than making them true to lore.

Stop me now if you feel the other way. Thanks for this input.

Lore doesn't mean MC price shouldn't be adjusted for 'Mechs that require 4,000,000 c-bills in upgrades to be viable in standard game play, though.

(Unless of course stock mode is included in CW and these stock "custom" hero's provide the c-bill/xp bonus in that game mode)

Edited by DocBach, 11 September 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[SpiralFace]

@Russ,

What about considering a LIGHT MC reduction to account for the lack of upgrades at a LATER date.

League of Ledgends runs off a similar Idea. Newly released champions are very much priced at a "Premium" but as time wares on, their Premium price is dropped to be more in line with other champions of similar ability.

I think there is an argument for both cases, but if I had to choose one I would rather see the lore respected as opposed to anything else. (Lets be real everyone, you buy the hero's for the cbill bonus, the unique paint job, and the unique hardpoints.)

This allows your initial hero rollouts to be priced for the "first time users" crowd, but over time, they will be rolled back into something that is more "MC to C-bill" appropriate for the kind of equipment they come with. (Keeping in mind that they will always be at more of a premium because of there bonus'.)

If anything, this will allow newer players a "lower cost" option for hero mechs knowing full well that they will have to sink in a further 5-7 mil into the frames to customize them into a top tier chassis. All while keeping the higher tier price for the early adopters.