67 replies to this topic

[RockmachinE]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:53 AM, said:

I agree. I do think it COULD be very good though. Phil mentioned that after CW is implemented one of the next things the team will look into is NPC opponents. At least, I think I heard that. If only NPC opponents could be part of CW. How awesome would that be? Any group of any size could go against NPC opponents to play out different lore based battle scenarios. Now THAT offers the potential of a rich gaming experience accessible to all levels of players. Probably just a pipe dream.

I would hate ai opponents. It's a MMO, that's why I play it. And I know it comes down to sentiment ultimately, but I've always hated PVE, that's for people who can't think and who want a mechanical game with mechanical predictable opponents. I want all my opponents to be human, hell even human controlled turrets (after you lose your mech) would be cool. especially don't mix bots and people, never do that.

Anything but NPC and AI combat. If I want that I'll play anything but an MMO and that's not why I'm here.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 12 September 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[Felix7007]

Every point you listed is exactly what we want from CW. Your post is counter-intuitive. Or maybe not intuitive at all.

Also, I do not expect CW to be like, Whoever won the last match on a planet owns it. Planets will not be won by one match or YES, what you are saying is true.

I believe that there will be a series of matches needing to be won to take over a planet.


Chromehounds for instance:

To take over a territory or "Planet", you had to win enough multiplayer matches on the 3-4 maps that make up the territory to take it over. I am hoping CW is like this.

A planet has 3-4 maps on it in which you must compete to take over. Once all are taken over by a single faction, they own it.

Edited by Felix7007, 12 September 2014 - 05:44 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

So, you want this game to be an exclusive club for hardcore fans? Do you personally have the financial resources to keep the PGI development team employed? You can't have it both ways. If you want this game to survive you need LOTS of players. You need a steady flow of new players to replace those dropping off. Why would PGI put huge development funds into a feature of the game that supports only a tiny fraction of the community? It is a business after all.

uh...not what was said. The game is totally open for Casuals, with all the usual options plus whatever is added. CW Is indeed being geared for hardcore fans.

[EgoSlayer]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure he mentioned that several times. Even if he didn't, how are you going to defend your planet? In a one v. one match? Think it through

Easy - a solo and a group queue for each planet under siege, just like the queues we have now. No reason it has to be groups only.

[Riverboat Sam]

Hi Guys;

Looks like CW will definitely NOT suck. Great post yesterday that answers all these questions and more. No need for further conjecture on this post.

Check out the straight poop: http://mwomercs.com/...arfare-phase-2/

[Russ Bullock]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

Listened to the town hall on the NGNG podcast and am more than a little disturbed by what I heard about the Community Warfare model everyone thinks will be the holy grail for this game. The key points I heard are:

1. You must form a pre-made group to participate (no random matchmaking).
2. Results of matches are binding, meaning if you win you get the planet and if you loose you're kicked off of it.
3. You have to defend your planets from challengers. What happens if you don't respond to challenges? I assume you would loose by default. How else could they handle that?
4. Finally, you have to play pure Clan or pure IS teams.

I've seen other games try a similar mode - persistent results campaign modes where you have to defend against all comers. NO ONE ever played that mode. The reasons are obvious if you think about it for a few minutes.

Put simply, you have to form a dedicated team of 4, 8 or more players that are consistently available to answer challenges to your ownership of a planet. If you don't answer, you loose your territory. If you can't get your whole team together to answer a challenge, and have to supplement your team with less competent players, then you loose your challenge and loose your territory just the same.

Who will be successful in this game mode? Only the absolute top tier elite players who dedicate a significant portion of their free time to this game every single week. Who will never have a chance and therefore be excluded from this game mode by default? All PUG's. All new players. All casual players.

It looks to me like Community Warfare will be an oddity played by the top 0.05% of the community, while the remaining 99.95% continue to drop in from time to time for a quick match in the PUG queue.

Looks like for all the moaning and groaning about this feature, and all the focus PGI is putting on it, it will be a huge fail.

Thoughts?

Some misinformatin here

1) you dont have to be in a premade you can participate as a solo player or small group even
2) yes results are binding but its not like its just onen battle it might days worth before its decided and then nothing says you cant try to attack it ones it flipped to try and take it back - there will be opportunities for this.
3) Yes but again its not just one battle, if you dont show up all weekend well yah your going to lose
4) Isnt that a good thing? dont we want to simulate that whole conflict, isnt that the point?

Thanks for your post and I do see a lot of healthy discussion with most people very excited but lets try and get all the right information out there - and of course it does continue to evolve somewhat as we approach and get real test data

[SI The Joker]

Russ Bullock, on 12 September 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Some misinformatin here

1) you dont have to be in a premade you can participate as a solo player or small group even
2) yes results are binding but its not like its just onen battle it might days worth before its decided and then nothing says you cant try to attack it ones it flipped to try and take it back - there will be opportunities for this.
3) Yes but again its not just one battle, if you dont show up all weekend well yah your going to lose
4) Isnt that a good thing? dont we want to simulate that whole conflict, isnt that the point?

Thanks for your post and I do see a lot of healthy discussion with most people very excited but lets try and get all the right information out there - and of course it does continue to evolve somewhat as we approach and get real test data

I actually asked the question about single players and such in the main feedback thread. So what happens if an attacked unit does not respond and the defense is then filled up with solo players? Is this to say that in this space that these unorganized players Read: Solo Players - would then have to continually face off against organized 12-man teams?

[Thunder Lips Express]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure he mentioned that several times. Even if he didn't, how are you going to defend your planet? In a one v. one match? Think it through

i think holding the planet is for the merc corps who want their own planet, and you can pug by joining davion/steiner/whomever and go defend or attack planets that they need attacked or defended right?

[Sjorpha]

My main concern is this: The way it is described it looks like most attacks will be initiated by 12-man premades, probably on teamspeak, and most/many defending teams will be whoever was around to respond at the time. Essentially pitting an attacking 12-man premade against the equivalent of a random PUG team... anyone else see a problem with that?

Other than that it looks great, but as a solo player I'm not about to repeatedly throw myself as cannon fodder for 12-man groups. In game voice chat and strong defensive positions would help a little, but for a semblance of balance i think the system also needs to create an environment where attacking and defending teams are both open to solo players and smaller groups.

It's not just about the exact system either. It's also that since initiating an attack requires an active strategic initiative, attacking teams will we more likely to be better prepared teams regardless of what the exact rules are. And this needs to be brought into account when balancing regardless of the exact rules for attacking/defending.

Edited by Sjorpha, 12 September 2014 - 09:07 AM.

[Mycrus]

CW has been strung out so long that no matter what will come out it will be a "fail" in someone's eyes...

[NoClass]

No it won't be a major fail. It will be at most 60 percent of an effort like everything else in MechWarrior:Almost.

Mech Warfare: hit this pillar.
Information Warefare: ecm, tag, bap and UAV. Almost.
Role Warfare: well, there's a skill tree but nothing encouraging roles except weight classes. Almost.
UI2.0/Mechlab: Looks good but cumbersome to use. Almost.
Diverse game modes: 3 flavors of deathmatch. Almost.
Game balance: finally achieved between IS, then clans arrived. Almost.
Maps: bugged and plagued with invisible walls, asymmetry and uncompelling aesthetic choices and texturing. Almost.
Community Warfare: probably going to come up way short of every outline. Almost.

Edited by VigilanceHawkwind, 12 September 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[Wolfways]

I don't think CW will be the huge game-changing miracle that some seem to think. I also won't believe anything said about it until it's in the game.

Also, people keep saying things like "How will I/my team defend our planet?". It's faction-based. i.e. it's not you and your team. If you aren't there to defend a planet I'm sure there will be others in your faction who are.

[Rebas Kradd]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

It looks to me like Community Warfare will be an oddity played by the top 0.05% of the community

Maybe now people will finally understand why PGI didn't rush to finish it first.

But you don't have to be in a group to participate- only to attack. If you want to defend, you can do it as a pug. Hopefully, raising the response timer from 2 minutes to 10 will allow more organized groups in to defend.

[Johnny Z]

Mycrus, on 12 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

CW has been strung out so long that no matter what will come out it will be a "fail" in someone's eyes...

The way they are doing it, by phase 3 i cant see how anyone could consider it a fail really. Although i may end up eating my words. Have to wait and see i guess.

Oh and by the way anyone trolling the upcoming faction wars, if your wrong i hope your prepared to eat your words to

I better start copying and pasting right a way in case i need to give anyone a hand

Edited by Johnny Z, 12 September 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[Karazine]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

So, you want this game to be an exclusive club for hardcore fans? Do you personally have the financial resources to keep the PGI development team employed? You can't have it both ways. If you want this game to survive you need LOTS of players. You need a steady flow of new players to replace those dropping off. Why would PGI put huge development funds into a feature of the game that supports only a tiny fraction of the community? It is a business after all.

Are you sure about the number of people that would play the CW. I don't see it. But then again, us FOUNDERS have been waiting for over ...... add any number you want....... years for this. Why would you even care about CW if your a pug and won't be dropping with us? What are you mad about?

[Karazine]

Sjorpha, on 12 September 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

My main concern is this: The way it is described it looks like most attacks will be initiated by 12-man premades, probably on teamspeak, and most/many defending teams will be whoever was around to respond at the time. Essentially pitting an attacking 12-man premade against the equivalent of a random PUG team... anyone else see a problem with that?

Other than that it looks great, but as a solo player I'm not about to repeatedly throw myself as cannon fodder for 12-man groups. In game voice chat and strong defensive positions would help a little, but for a semblance of balance i think the system also needs to create an environment where attacking and defending teams are both open to solo players and smaller groups.

It's not just about the exact system either. It's also that since initiating an attack requires an active strategic initiative, attacking teams will we more likely to be better prepared teams regardless of what the exact rules are. And this needs to be brought into account when balancing regardless of the exact rules for attacking/defending.

THEN IT WOULD NOT BE COMMUNITY WARFARE. IT WOULD BE PUG WARFARE. WHY WOULD ALL OF US TEAM GO TO THE TROUBLE TO FORM, BEFORE THE END OF CLOSED BETA, JUST TO HAVE CRYING PUGS TELL US WE SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO TEAM UP. GET A GRIP.

[Quxudica]

Karazine, on 21 September 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:

THEN IT WOULD NOT BE COMMUNITY WARFARE. IT WOULD BE PUG WARFARE. WHY WOULD ALL OF US TEAM GO TO THE TROUBLE TO FORM, BEFORE THE END OF CLOSED BETA, JUST TO HAVE CRYING PUGS TELL US WE SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO TEAM UP. GET A GRIP.

PuG's are a part of the community, doesn't really matter how much you rage about it. Producing resource intensive content that only caters to a tiny portion of the player base isn't good for the game or the business. More over CW has been, since Closed Beta and before, touted as the central axis of MWO upon which the entire game experience is supposed to spin - locking that off from most players is just not going to work out well.

Problem is MWO completely lacks community building features in game. There is no way to find or join a clan in game, there's bare minimum communication methods no group builder for people that aren't friends,, no way for players to discuss pre-launch etc.

I honestly think the only solution is a priority system combined with a ranking system. The highest priority targets require premade groups of a certain rank, medium priority battles are open to smaller groups and solo queue, the lowest priority groups are locked to solo queue only and potentially low rank players.

They will also have to make synch-dropping an actionable offense to protect the integrity of the system.

[Astrocanis]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

So, you want this game to be an exclusive club for hardcore fans? Do you personally have the financial resources to keep the PGI development team employed? You can't have it both ways. If you want this game to survive you need LOTS of players. You need a steady flow of new players to replace those dropping off. Why would PGI put huge development funds into a feature of the game that supports only a tiny fraction of the community? It is a business after all.

My general experience (which only really consists of ~attempting~ to join in a two-man) is that group play effing sucks. No fun. Unless getting rolled by large groups is fun.

I'm going to pug. I'd rather put up with noobs without a clue than subject myself to that misery.

If CW is like the group queue is now, it's a big pass for me.

[Hoax415]

Enlil09, on 10 September 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

1. You must form a pre-made group to participate (no random matchmaking).

I keep seeing this opinion. Its written out that the only reason you need to do anything other than solo is to initiate an attack mission. If you want to solo you just play as a defender. If you hate joining a unit you'll still be able to form a pick up group of 12 and attack.

At least at the launch of CW there is no plan for the game to "match" say groups of 4 with each other so they can attack without forming a group of 12. If this community is so afraid of playing with others that something like that is needed. Well lets worry about that if CW ever actually releases right?

inb4 "time commitments" "units are too hardcore" "I hate playing with others"

CW is not replacing the solo queue, the game you play now will exist alongside so if your more suited to playing solo queue pug matches you are welcome to play them. You can't have your cake and eat it too. CW is by design a more tryhard'ish serious version of the game. If that makes you uncomfortable nobody is forcing it on you.

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2. Results of matches are binding, meaning if you win you get the planet and if you loose you're kicked off of it.

Ummm yes? But the results are not from 1 match. They are from DAYS of results. So far Russ has only given a three day figure. So we can guess that right now that's the number they think is appropriate. We don't know how many hours per day a planet will be attackable yet but its safe to guess that we're talking as many matches as can be run in at least 3 hours if not 6, 12, 24 hours on the planet and the score from all of them determines which faction wins.

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3. You have to defend your planets from challengers. What happens if you don't respond to challenges? I assume you would loose by default. How else could they handle that?

Again this post went 3 pages without anyone telling him the correct answer? Why?

Go read the posts in the comstar focus group board dude.

A player unit is the official defender of each planet. When the planet is attacked an alarm goes out and that unit gets 2 minutes to respond themselves by having a 12-man and defending. If they don't respond in 2 minutes then the defense goes "public". This is where solo players, small groups, 12-mans from the faction or allied factions but not the official defending unit come in. They are given the right to defend the planet.

So far they have not mentioned any system where an attacker can score "points" without actually fighting and winning a battle.

Quote

4. Finally, you have to play pure Clan or pure IS teams.

Well OP finally got one right. Yes you have to play pure. You're not locked to a faction for life so you can switch -rules on that unknown- but at any one time you are either Clan and using only clan mechs or IS and using only IS mechs.

Seriously though there are 2 CW feature update threads that a lot of you need to go read or something. We're still super in the dark but not about the complete basics this OP is talking about.

Edited by Hoax415, 21 September 2014 - 09:40 PM.

[jaxjace]

Pretty sure he said random pugs will fill out defenders if the full group cannot be mustered. you done lose it automatically lol come on now.