40 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Now I do not think LRMs are overpowered, I think they are much too weak actually, but the normal counter attack weapons which are Gauss Rifles and PPCs have been removed for being overpowered vs brawling weapons and mech armor values. (I say PGI replaced the Gauss Rifle with an apocryphal Sniper Rifle that is too weak to be a mech sniper rifle since players will only use the Sniper Gauss in pairs due to it's complexity and weak 15 damage per 15 tons).

PPCs are of course sub-400 meter weapons now due to their speed being cut in half. No way do they hit a moving target at 600-800 meters. This leaves LRMs unchallenged as long range weapons. ....oops!

So now I find I can take any fast mech, fill to maximum LRMs, maximum ammo and be successful and rich, like 300k CBills per match is a high average, with just that. Speed is good defense. And I see more and more players doing this.

The solution is to use the one Battle Tech provides in PPCs and Gauss Rifles that work normally. You see Mechs get really a small number of weapon types, but each is there as a counter balance to another weapon. This creates a game with many tactical options that are enhanced by the map's terrain. The counter to LRM's is fully functional Gauss Rifles and PPC's because they can block/kill LRM focused mechs at range, skill is the factor of course.

So balance in MechWarrior is not just defeating some meta or balancing DPS, it's making sure that the counter balance to each weapon works correctly and is available to any player and not just high level specialists. It's more like Scissors, Paper, Stone. If I bring Stone and you bring Scissors you will feel over-powered and countered, but you are not. Next time you just bring Paper.

Edited by Lightfoot, 10 September 2014 - 04:49 AM.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 10 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

Now I do not think LRMs are overpowered, I think they are much too weak actually, but the normal counter attack weapons which are Gauss Rifles and PPCs have been removed for being overpowered vs brawling weapons and mech armor values. (I say PGI replaced the Gauss Rifle with an apocryphal Sniper Rifle that is too weak to be a mech sniper rifle since players will only use the Sniper Gauss in pairs due to it's complexity and weak 15 damage per 15 tons).

PPCs are of course sub-400 meter weapons now due to their speed being cut in half. No way do they hit a moving target at 600-800 meters. This leaves LRMs unchallenged as long range weapons. ....oops!

So now I find I can take any fast mech, fill to maximum LRMs, maximum ammo and be successful and rich, like 300 CBills per match is a high average, with just that. Speed is good defense. And I see more and more players doing this.

The solution is to use the one Battle Tech provides in PPCs and Gauss Rifles that work normally. You see Mechs get really a small number of weapon types, but each is there as a counter balance to another weapon. This creates a game with many tactical options that are enhanced by the map's terrain. The counter to LRM's is fully functional Gauss Rifles and PPC's because they can block/kill LRM focused mechs at range, skill is the factor of course.

So balance in MechWarrior is not just defeating some meta or balancing DPS, it's making sure that the counter balance to each weapon works correctly and is available to any player and not just high level specialists. It's more like Scissors, Paper, Stone. If I bring Stone and you bring Scissors you will feel over-powered and countered, but you are not. Next time you just bring Paper.

LRMs are unchallenged long range weapons? Oh, that must be the reason why my LRM boat is getting harassed by C/ERLLasers from 1000 meters out by mechs under ECM umbrella.

1. Only 300 C-Bills per match with any fast mech with LRMs? What? If you mean 300K C-Bills per match, then unless you have premium, I call BS.

2. LRM stands for Long Range Missiles. Even then, it is only optimal to use below 600 meters, distance in which the C/ERPPC, C/Gauss, C/ERLLaser, C/UAC5/AC5, CLPL, CERML, IS LLaser are also good for. Not to mention the Clans have Targetting Computer to speed up their CERPPC and CGauss.

3. Gauss Rifles are still very good even when used alone. Go ahead, ask around. I personally use it with lasers on my DS and it felt good. I have also seen plenty of rampaging Timbies with single CGauss paired with energy weapons.

4. This is very important: Even if you feel there are no counter weapons against LRMs, there are counter LRM equipments and modules for everyone, regardless of mechs, to use. (with the small exception of X5) No other weapon is countered as much by such methods as LRMs.


5. LRMs are due for a rework, yes. But it must be accompanied by ECM, NARC, TAG rework as well. (damn it must be the hundredth time I say this)

Edited by El Bandito, 10 September 2014 - 05:10 AM.

[Fut]

Lightfoot, on 10 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

Now I do not think LRMs are overpowered, I think they are much too weak actually, but the normal counter attack weapons which are Gauss Rifles and PPCs have been removed.....

Say what?
I've never found it a good idea to play the long game against Long Range Missiles. Sure you can hit them with direct damage weapons, but you're still playing "their" game. The absolute best way to defeat Mechs using LRMs is to get right up in their face. The min-range on LRMs are their greatest weakness.

Just the other day I was in a match with a friend of mine. We were pinned down early from the LRMs coming at us, once somebody got LOS on one of them, I was able to see a tonne of Missile Racks and only a couple Medium Lasers - So I threw my CDA-2A into high gear and charged. I was able to take out two CPLT Missile Boats, and one of those LRM-Atlases that pop up from time to time.

Don't even get me started on all the LRM Counter Equipment that exists in game...

[Lightfoot]

Yes, I activated my carefully saved premium time, unfortunately.

El Bandito, on 10 September 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

1. Only 300 C-Bills per match with any fast mech with LRMs? What? If you mean 300K C-Bills per match, then unless you have premium, I call BS.

2. LRM stands for Long Range Missiles. Even then, it is only optimal below 600 meters, distance in which the C/ERPPC, C/Gauss, C/ERLLaser, C/UAC5/AC5 are also good for. Not to mention the Clans have Targetting Computer to speed up their CERPPC and CGauss.

3. Gauss Rifles are still very good. Go ahead, ask around. Those who use it will tell you that it is still good. I personally use it with Lasers on my DS.


LRMs are due for a rework, yes. But it must be accompanied by ECM, NARC, TAG rework as well. (damn it must be the hundredth time I say this)

1.) Yes, unfortunately I activated my banked premium time from the past two years, but the 300k per match is what I am averaging or close too it.

2.) LRMs are still very weak and do not compete with direct fire. You want them nerfed to protect failed PPCs and a Gauss that is so fouled that only one player per team might bring them? That's not going to deliver a playable MechWarrior game. Stompy arcade robots, but not MechWarrior.

3.) Gauss Rifles are too complex for just 15 damage for 15 tons. Players bring AC's instead. PPCs never hit anything moving beyond 400 meters. Same with ACs and Lasers which are set up as Brawler weapons in MWO. laser durations and Ballistic velocity, except the AC2 which no one uses anymore, too nerfed as well.

Anyway, LRMs are very weak damage and accuracy now, but when they are completely unchallenged as they are now it doesn't matter what damage they do.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 10 September 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Anyway, LRMs are very weak damage and accuracy now, but when they are completely unchallenged as they are now it doesn't matter what damage they do.

Read my edited post--added a few more points. I still get hit by C/ERLLs from distance where I cannot hope to even reach with LRMs, much less accurately hit. More so when the enemy is under ECM--something DF weapons do not have to worry about.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 September 2014 - 05:15 AM.

[Ngamok]

I understand where you are coming from. But anyone who is a decent shot can kill any LRM boats 1 on 1 before the LRM boat can do serious damage in return. Is there an issue where having 3-4 guys all boating are doing it? Maybe. But any good ECM pretty much negates most of it especially if you kill the scout spotting for it or make sure you can shoot down any UAV.

Last night I was in my 4x C-SRM6 Summoner (Last missile slot is an LRM20 in the shoulder) and lots of people who play the brawl game will just run at those guys and they just fall over. I enjoyed pumping my SRMs into any LRM boats and watching them shoot me back with a few medium lasers.

[Lightfoot]

@Fut

For LRMs you need to be fast as well. Clan LRMs have no minimum range and the ramp-up is workable. Sure if direct fire gets into brawling range you are countered if you can't extend the range, but that's why you have the high speed.

The point of this post is just to emphasize it's the counter-balance of the weapons that makes MechWarrior work. Right now MWO is so focused on brawling as the only option and FLD weapons are to be removed from their defined roles as long range defense/attack. So is there going to be no long range combat at all in MWO like we have now (except for the weak LRMs).

Every time I have been on Alpine for the past two weeks the combat is at 300 meters, occasionally as much as 500 meters. Prior to that you had mechs battling across the valleys with PPCs and ERLs and LRMs. So if gameplay is just brawling mechs on Alpine now, isn't that the definition of an Arcade MechWarrior vs. the Simulation MechWarrior we had a few weeks ago?

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 10 September 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

@Fut

For LRMs you need to be fast as well. Clan LRMs have no minimum range and the ramp-up is workable. Sure if direct fire gets into brawling range you are countered if you can't extend the range, but that's why you have the high speed.

The point of this post is just to emphasize it's the counter-balance of the weapons that makes MechWarrior work. Right now MWO is so focused on brawling as the only option and FLD weapons are to be removed from their defined roles as long range defense/attack. So is there going to be no long range combat at all in MWO like we have now (except for the weak LRMs).

Every time I have been on Alpine for the past two weeks the combat is at 300 meters, occasionally as much as 500 meters. Prior to that you had mechs battling across the valleys with PPCs and ERLs and LRMs. So if gameplay is just brawling mechs on Alpine now, isn't that the definition of an Arcade MechWarrior vs. the Simulation MechWarrior we had a few weeks ago?

I can't believe you are against more brawling. I for one, am sick of the snipe meta we had for the last 2 years. We gave FLD weapons such as Gauss and ER/PPC speed at long range, and it was not a good experience.

Alpine is exceptional since most people contest the hill--culminating to a sub 400 meter fight. Sometimes the northern team camp the radio tower and then there will be plenty of sniping.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 September 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[Livewyr]

Need a counter weapon against LRMs? This is not exactly difficult.

Take *any* long range weapon (AC5s, ER/PPCs, Gauss Rifles, ERLLs) and stand next to cover. Boom...you win the weapons exchange.

(In case you are wondering how it works: Shoot the LRM mech, even if he has launched his flights at you, then step behind the cover and wait for the impacts on the cover. Repeat.)

LRMs are the most useless things in long range direct engagements.

Edited by Livewyr, 10 September 2014 - 05:34 AM.

[Lightfoot]

El Bandito, on 10 September 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

I can't believe you are against more brawling. I for one, am sick of the snipe meta we had for the last 2 years. We gave FLD weapons such as Gauss and ER/PPC power at long range, and it was not a good experience.

Alpine is exceptional since most people contest the hill. Sometimes the northern team camp the radio tower and then there will be plenty of sniping.

The thing is, MechWarrior is a tactically enabled game. On some maps brawling is OP, on others it is weak and out-gunned by long range. In MWO we don't know the map in advance yet so there is a lot of uneeded frustration, but brawling can't be the exception that always works or you get a very arcade-like version of MechWarrior. But hey, this week LRMs are unchallenged on any map just about if you have speed too so Battle Tech balance is proven right again. Battle Tech balance is the Scissors, Paper, Stone counter-balancing.

[Lightfoot]

Livewyr, on 10 September 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

Need a counter weapon against LRMs? This is not exactly difficult.

Take *any* long range weapon (AC5s, ER/PPCs, Gauss Rifles, ERLLs) and stand next to cover. Boom...you win the weapons exchange.

(In case you are wondering how it works: Shoot the LRM mech, even if he has launched his flights at you, then step behind the cover and wait for the impacts on the cover. Repeat.)

LRMs are the most useless things in long range direct engagements.

That's not what happens now. Three weeks ago you would be correct because PPCs speed could still hit things at range. Now you just look for the 2xGauss Jag and blow up it's Gauss Rifles which explode easily and your only threat is gone. Then you just keep some range and watch for high threat targets. And I am doing this with an LRM40 Thor with TAG to keep things interesting, so not a boaty LRM mech by any means. And I do TAG most of my targets, so say 500-700 meter range.

Edited by Lightfoot, 10 September 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[Radbane]

I like Ballistics and Lasers, but there Is no Counter Module ... ever

[Mercules]

Lightfoot, on 10 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

PPCs are of course sub-400 meter weapons now due to their speed being cut in half. No way do they hit a moving target at 600-800 meters.

[Cyberiad]

The problem with LRMs is that every mech has a C3 master and slave for free. Mechs are not supposed to be able to share targets without C3 equipment which costs tonnage and space. ECM is not supposed to make LRMs useless either, they are supposed to decrease the detection range of the mech. IS LRMs are also not supposed to have a minimum range, they are just supposed to be extremely inaccurate at short ranges.

[Lightfoot]

Mercules, on 10 September 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Yes, it's true. PPCs don't hit moving targets past 400 meters at 850 mps. That would be extremely lucky or rare.

Edited by Lightfoot, 10 September 2014 - 06:06 AM.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 10 September 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

That's not what happens now. Three weeks ago you would be correct because PPCs speed could still hit things at range. Now you just look for the 2xGauss Jag and blow up it's Gauss Rifles which explode easily and your only threat is gone. Then you just keep some range and watch for high threat targets. And I am doing this with an LRM40 Thor with TAG to keep things interesting, so not a boaty LRM mech by any means.

Hey, anything works in pugs. A team has no right to complain about LRMs, if they did not bring any AMS.

That said, AMS Awareness Thursday is tomorrow. Gonna bust out my 5S again.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 September 2014 - 06:06 AM.

[Mercules]

Lightfoot, on 10 September 2014 - 06:02 AM, said:

Yes, it's true. PPCs don't hit moving targets past 400 meters at 850 mps. That would be extremely lucky or rare. Now get some more air in that head gurl.

While I consider it lucky when I hit spiders/commandos/jenners and other light speedsters out past 400m... Hitting most of the Assault/Heavies out there(majority of missile boats) with a PPC consistently isn't that hard even at 800m. Since I tend to be IN those smaller faster mechs or a fast medium I can agree they have a harder time hitting me while I'm moving. Then again I don't move at constant speeds or in straight lines like many people do.

[NextGame]

My solution is to stand behind a wall, or wall like object, and try not to get caught out in the open. The simplest solutions are often the best.

Edited by NextGame, 10 September 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[Lightfoot]

El Bandito, on 10 September 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Hey, anything works in pugs. A team has no right to complain about LRMs, if they did not bring any AMS.

That said, AMS Awareness Thursday is tomorrow. Gonna bust out my 5S again.

You just bring more ammo and drain their AMS. Nobody brings alot of AMS ammo.

Cya all later. My LRMs are calling.



.

Edited by Lightfoot, 10 September 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Lightfoot, on 10 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

PPCs are of course sub-400 meter weapons now due to their speed being cut in half. No way do they hit a moving target at 600-800 meters. This leaves LRMs unchallenged as long range weapons. ....oops!

I would not blanket everyone with this statement, just because you can't does not mean its impossible. I have no problem hitting heavies and assaults with PPCs at max range still. Granted max range is not what it used to be and trying to hit anything going over 80 kph is tough but not that hard or impossible by any means.

Mercules seems to support my statement....