632 replies to this topic

[IanSane]

Wolfways, on 12 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

This is an example of how people cannot agree on things. Some people refuse to accept that an "easy mode weapon" is only easy if the target is a bad player that let's themselves be killed by it.
Along with the flamer and maybe small laser, LRM's are one of the least effective weapons in the game.

Lets see...Caustic anyone? PLENTY of LRM cover there....I love how the first thing an LRM boater comes up with is if a player dies to LRMs he is bad. Granted a good player can MITIGATE SOME of the LRM hits but no one will ever avoid them entirely.

LRMs are one of the least effective weapons in the game.....seriously? In a group match sure because why? Because people in group matches make sure they bring counters and lots of it. Go play a pub match where folks are randomly put in to matches without regard to build. Tell me how ineffective LRMs are there.

[IceGryphon]

TrentTheWanderer, on 12 September 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

I think he's stilled shadowbanned from Reddit for the Transverse fiasco.

Sorry Shadowbanned just made this pop into my head.

[Ergath Macfirtree]

To weigh in briefly I'd agree that ghost heat is a far greater problem than ECM. I say this because ECM, BAP, TAG etc belong in the game and everyone agrees broadly what they should do (OK, very broadly) because they're canon and also based on real devices. Ghost heat is just a painfully artificial fudge to get around the fact that MWO mechs can carry loadouts that would have made the Technical Readout 3025 spontaneously combust. That whole area needs looking at afresh IMO.

On topic: Information Warfare should be a specialist role that encourages tactical play - not just a buff that you can slap on any mech. I've "liked" some of the ideas already discussed in this thread and won't attempt to restate the parts I agreed with other than to say that I like the idea of a "realistic" approach with no hard counters.

Oh, and Homeless Bill gets my vote.

[Richard Warts]

The only thing that needs to be done with ECM is to remove it's stacking ability. If you have lock on a mech with ECM because you carry a BAP then that lock should remain regardless of how many additional ECM mechs join to aide him but that's it. If you beef up the NARC and other info systems any further then it'll be LRMocalypes all over again. This would cause another exodus of players. As it stands right now the game is in a pretty good spot balance wise. Some minor tweaks may need to be made for CW once we have IS v Clan but from a lot of the suggestions I've read on this thread I've noticed a pretty large bias here. That bias seems to be coming from those who favor LRMs.

[Sprouticus]

Play council:

Bad idea for a permanent one, but a good idea to deal with a specific issue. (ECM, Ghost heat, FLD). Just make sure the same person cant be on more than one and it fixes potential issues.


ECM:

I will say that my thought on this is simply:

Whatever we decide as a group, GIVE PGI OPTIONS. coming up with 1 perfect andswrr only to be told it cannot be done for technical reason will upset a lot of people. Give them several options from most desireable optionto least (but still good).


Also, give them the chance to do stuff in phases. Changes like this may take a LOT of effort.

example:

phase 1: Make ECM self only or reduce the range (fairly easy to code)
Phase 2: Modify the sensor structure and how LRM IDF works (probably take a lot more time to code)
phase 3: End state with LRM's ECM, BAP, sensor structures, etc all balanced and perfect (take most time)


My suggestion for the pile:

1) ECM self only
2) Modify LRM IDF to be TAG/NARC/C3 only, but buff DF dmg
3) get rid of all hard counters for sensors. Soft counters (like decreased/increased range) only.

[IanSane]

Sprouticus, on 12 September 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Play council:

Bad idea for a permanent one, but a good idea to deal with a specific issue. (ECM, Ghost heat, FLD). Just make sure the same person cant be on more than one and it fixes potential issues.


ECM:

I will say that my thought on this is simply:

Whatever we decide as a group, GIVE PGI OPTIONS. coming up with 1 perfect andswrr only to be told it cannot be done for technical reason will upset a lot of people. Give them several options from most desireable optionto least (but still good).


Also, give them the chance to do stuff in phases. Changes like this may take a LOT of effort.

example:

phase 1: Make ECM self only or reduce the range (fairly easy to code)
Phase 2: Modify the sensor structure and how LRM IDF works (probably take a lot more time to code)
phase 3: End state with LRM's ECM, BAP, sensor structures, etc all balanced and perfect (take most time)


My suggestion for the pile:

1) ECM self only
2) Modify LRM IDF to be TAG/NARC/C3 only, but buff DF dmg
3) get rid of all hard counters for sensors. Soft counters (like decreased/increased range) only.

and what about the other 40 mechs in the game that don't get ecm? Sorry but it sucks to be you?

[Agelmar]

ECM is fine. It works.

I don't understand the issue. ECM helps counter LRMs. LRMs are OP! Nerf ECM.

Huh?

[Wolfways]

IanSane, on 12 September 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

Lets see...Caustic anyone? PLENTY of LRM cover there....I love how the first thing an LRM boater comes up with is if a player dies to LRMs he is bad. Granted a good player can MITIGATE SOME of the LRM hits but no one will ever avoid them entirely.

LRMs are one of the least effective weapons in the game.....seriously? In a group match sure because why? Because people in group matches make sure they bring counters and lots of it. Go play a pub match where folks are randomly put in to matches without regard to build. Tell me how ineffective LRMs are there.

lol LRM boater... I have one LRM mech (CPLT-C1 with stock weapons) but I'm usually in my Kit Fox-C or Nova Prime, and i only play in the solo queue.
The chance of hitting a target before he retreats into cover is affected by projectile speed. the lower the speed the less chance of hitting. Also, LRM's give the player a warning that the missiles have been fired.
If you die regularly to LRM's it's more your fault that how easy the weapon is to use.

I know how effective LRM boats are. I watch them die every match taking their team down with them.

Before the introduction of clans made LRM's viable (worth carrying because of their low weight, although how many TBR's do you see with LRM's?) LRM's were entirely avoidable. Now, i take some damage....but it's better to be tickled by a few missiles than blasted by PPC's/Gauss.
Oh, and other than on my Kit Fox i never use any LRM countermeasures, equipment or modules. The only thing you need is the ability to use terrain.

[TrentTheWanderer]

@Agelmar It isn't a one-dimensional issue with LRMs on one side and ECM on the other.

Still, the entire thing seems like one giant distraction. ECM isn't the biggest problem with MWO right now, broken or unnecessary systems like Ghost Heat and 3PV, totaled together with a low standard of quality for balance, especially with new content like the Clan release, are the biggest problems.

[IceGryphon]

Tabu 73, on 12 September 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

The only thing that needs to be done with ECM is to remove it's stacking ability. If you have lock on a mech with ECM because you carry a BAP then that lock should remain regardless of how many additional ECM mechs join to aide him but that's it. If you beef up the NARC and other info systems any further then it'll be LRMocalypes all over again. This would cause another exodus of players. As it stands right now the game is in a pretty good spot balance wise. Some minor tweaks may need to be made for CW once we have IS v Clan but from a lot of the suggestions I've read on this thread I've noticed a pretty large bias here. That bias seems to be coming from those who favor LRMs.

hmmm, Bap breaking all 2+ ECM's is pretty harsh.
I say increase Bap Range by small 10m Increments till we find a balance.
Still like the 1v1 Counter system.
It's better then when there was no counter and mechs would disappear off the map.

Allowing Narc to break Multiple would be really good.
It's hard to freaking hit with NARC as is, once they have 2 ECM in 180 radius it's useless.
Even then with narc lock time takes 3~5 seconds to lock them up.

[IanSane]

Wolfways, on 12 September 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

lol LRM boater... I have one LRM mech (CPLT-C1 with stock weapons) but I'm usually in my Kit Fox-C or Nova Prime, and i only play in the solo queue.
The chance of hitting a target before he retreats into cover is affected by projectile speed. the lower the speed the less chance of hitting. Also, LRM's give the player a warning that the missiles have been fired.
If you die regularly to LRM's it's more your fault that how easy the weapon is to use.

I know how effective LRM boats are. I watch them die every match taking their team down with them.

Before the introduction of clans made LRM's viable (worth carrying because of their low weight, although how many TBR's do you see with LRM's?) LRM's were entirely avoidable. Now, i take some damage....but it's better to be tickled by a few missiles than blasted by PPC's/Gauss.
Oh, and other than on my Kit Fox i never use any LRM countermeasures, equipment or modules. The only thing you need is the ability to use terrain.

Someone who writes a 2000 word essay on how LRM boats are hard done by kinda loses all credibility when they say they don't LRM boat lol.

[Agelmar]

TrentTheWanderer, on 12 September 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

@Agelmar It isn't a one-dimensional issue with LRMs on one side and ECM on the other.

Still, the entire thing seems like one giant distraction. ECM isn't the biggest problem with MWO right now, broken or unnecessary systems like Ghost Heat and 3PV, totaled together with a low standard of quality for balance, especially with new content like the Clan release, are the biggest problems.

I know it isn't one dimensional. I guess my biggest issue is people can't help but compare weapon systems to TT or previous MW games.

I don't care about TT. I don't care about how it worked in MW4. I care about a fun and balanced MWO and ECM and LRMs aren't anywhere on my list of issues.

With radar derp and cover I only take significant damage from LRMs when I'm doing something stupid. I have no issues with people using ECM or my team NOT having ECM.

CW being implemented and actually fun/worthwhile is THE most important thing for MWO's success. It has been since I shelled out Founder's money and it will continue to be so.

[IceGryphon]

IanSane, on 12 September 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Someone who writes a 2000 word essay on how LRM boats are hard done by kinda loses all credibility when they say they don't LRM boat lol.

As someone who boats myself, I have seen horrible boating.
You need to keep moving because people move behind buildings and terrain end up firing into nothing.
Basically keep shooting and run!

[Wolfways]

IanSane, on 12 September 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

Someone who writes a 2000 word essay on how LRM boats are hard done by kinda loses all credibility when they say they don't LRM boat lol.

I never mentioned boats. In fact i said that the cooldown on launchers should be increased thereby reducing "missile spam".
I actually wrote all that some time ago and other than the occasional minor change i just copy-paste it. I have been involved in other topics too.
Maybe if you were a forum regular you would know that i join in on forum discussions quite a lot...until recently anyway. It's getting boring going over the same topics for three years...

I don't boat anything because i only use stock weapons loadouts (IS) or completely stock (clan) mechs.

[Tank]

Wolfways, on 12 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

This is an example of how people cannot agree on things. Some people refuse to accept that an "easy mode weapon" is only easy if the target is a bad player that let's themselves be killed by it.
Along with the flamer and maybe small laser, LRM's are one of the least effective weapons in the game.

Please tell me how you deal with 6 opposing LRM boats against you, under ECM and taken a defensive posture while defended by meta mech. Pretty bulletproof scenario if you ask me and heck off a dreadful experience.

This scenario is why I no longer play skirmish mode and try to avoid assault mode. Resource gathering is the only one that allows avoid described above scenario by maneuvering forces on the field and force opposition to take action (tactical gameplay!).

But then again most people play Skirmish and Assault, because they like it stale and simple, I understand that most of players want maximum gratification with minimum effort.

And if MWO is heading to E-Sports road, we just can't have that. I still remember that awful team tournament few month ago where people where raining airstrikes and artillery - that's anything but sports.

[DocBach]

DocBach, on 12 September 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Can anybody find the original archived ECM poll that had the options

ECM makes the game much less fun
ECM makes the game less fun
ECM does not affect the game
ECM makes the game more fun
ECM makes the game much more fun

?

There were at least a thousand of responses, and the voting for "ECM makes the game much less fun" had more votes than "ECM makes the game more fun, makes the game much more fun" combined?

Found it:
http://mwomercs.com/...ture-aftermath/

[beerandasmoke]

Deadmeat313, on 12 September 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

I absolutely support this proposal.

Really the main pillar of MWO is face to face Mech combat. Right now, if you meet an enemy Mech in an open brawl then one or both of you is likely to receive a rain of LRMs delivered by some guys over the hill. This has influenced map design - requiring LOTS of tall structures to hide behind, and making an "Open Plains" style map sheer folly. This makes me sad.

I'd like to see LRMs fire on a shallower arc, and be "fire and forget" so you don't need to steer them in on target.

On Topic: ECM

I'd like to see ECM toned down and BAP toned up. Allow locks on ECM masked targets - but give no ID and no target info. Crucially - ECM would become a counter (OMG an electronic countermeasure!) to BAP.
BAP should be given a limited fitting slot like ECM has now. Mechs that carry it can light up all enemy Mechs within its operating range - on a 360 degree arc - showing them on the team minimap, but NOT allowing indirect fire.

Indirect fire should be allowed only by TAG.

D313

They would have to buff LRM speed up substantially but im on board with this. What were getting with the LRM spam is the same thing World of Tanks deals with. Guys sitting in the back spamming "support" weapons while not risking themselves at all. Getting killed by arty in Wot or some guy 900 meters in the back in a stalker boating LRMs is basically the same thing. WOT finally had to deal with the issue by nerfing the beejezzus out of arty to the point where its a complete crapshoot. MWO can avoid this by just making them directfire weapons.

[The Dancing Joker]

Russ' tweet made it sound like this was an important topic. If you want rules for ECM there are many fine books to read with optional rules, cross references, etc.

ECM is fine as it is, it is extremely inconvenient to a Lermer... but defeatable. *lick* there I gave my lick for MWO.

[Wolfways]

If we're nominating players for a council i choose (in no particular order):

Livewyr
Joseph Mallan
Bishop Steiner
Homeless Bill

[beerandasmoke]

Homeless Bill