632 replies to this topic

[Cimarb]

Ertur, on 13 September 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

I don't understand the "ECM is too OP" argument. I've run LRMs, I've run direct fire/brawlers. ECM doesn't matter at all unless you have LRMs or streaks. With streaks, I always carry BAP; byebye ECM. I saw one suggestion here, "Hey BAP should counter ECM." It does already.
LRM boats can counter ECM with TAG or NARC. PPCs disable ECM. There's lots of ways to deal with ECM. It does not need any nerfs.

The issue is it takes EIGHT pieces of equipment, all of which weigh nearly as much, or more, than the ECM.

Even if you have TAG, you have to actively keep it on the ECM mech the entire time, exposing yourself (and your CT) the whole time.

Even if you have BAP, it only works out to 120 meters, while ECM extends to 180 meters, so a good ECM pilot will make sure to stay in that 120-180 meter range, or just go in and out of it often enough to break your lock, which is extended in time even when within the range where BAP works.

PPCs only disable ECM for 4 seconds, so you have to hit the ECM mech every cooldown to keep it down. Any break in that and the LRM mech will immediately lose lock and miss the ECM mech, since there is not enough time to reacquire a lock.

In this discussion, the only weapon systems in it are LRMs and Streaks, since they are the systems totally shut down by ECM.

DocBach, on 13 September 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Quick question, if you could put ECM on every mech, would you?

I would, yes. In its current version, anyone that did NOT equip it would be severely hindering their success for roughly the cost of a single double heat sink.

[Wolfways]

DocBach, on 13 September 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Quick question, if you could put ECM on every mech, would you?

I hate ECM but the only Kit Fox i run is the Kit Fox-C because to do otherwise would be screwing over my team. The only Raven i had was the 3L. The only Atlas i used was the D-DC.

[Mystere]

DocBach, on 13 September 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Quick question, if you could put ECM on every mech, would you?

I most probably would not. And that is because there is a high probability that most of my team will be using that "crutch" anyway -- which ECM will become if every mech can take one.

I'm a very special snowflake in my own very special way.

Edited by Mystere, 13 September 2014 - 08:02 PM.

[El Bandito]

Stalker with ECM...my wet dream.

But it is not happening since even PGI knows it is an overpowered piece of equipment.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 September 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[Cimarb]

Mystere, on 13 September 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

I probably would not. And that is because there is a high probability that most of my team will be using that "crutch" anyway -- which ECM will become if every mech can take one.

Good point. As a clause to the original question, it should be "if you were the only one that could equip ECM, but you could do it on any mech, would you?"

[Nyden]

I haven't had time to read everything here so I may be repeating, but...

I don't think we can entirely get rid of the umbrella at this point; in the end too many people are used to it. Also we need to recognize the reason ECM was made so powerful in the first place, to combat the effectiveness of LRM's, especially with the mechs and technology available when it was released. If we entirely get rid of the umbrella we'd also have to significantly change LRM's and I just don't think something like that is going to be feasible. It would take too long to program and alot of more casual, less forum dwelling players would be pretty annoyed with a game mechanic change that severe.

That being said, I hate the umbrella.

I'm of the opinion that I should be able to target something I can see. Perhaps you could get a lock by holding your reticule over a mech. There could even be a delay, say 2 seconds. If you move the reticule off for over 1 second, you lose the lock. You can still spot for LRM's but they still have the ecm penalty to lock time, but you don't. This way LRM's and streaks could be direct fired at targets under the umbrella so that LRM boats wouldn't be required to carry TAG and streak user's wouldn't be required to carry BAP.

Tho, ecm would still be pretty powerful, it might not be far enough..

[Mcgral18]

I've read through the entire thread...I feel it can be summarized with:


Very much off topic, bads whining about Lurmageddon, and people who think the Magic Jesus Box is balanced at 1.5 tons, with features that aren't even part of Angel ECM or Stealth armour, that doesn't generate 10 heat.


It's like being in a PUG match...

Edited by Mcgral18, 13 September 2014 - 09:06 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 13 September 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

I've read through the entire thread...I feel it can be summarized with:


Very much off topic, bads whining about Lurmageddon, and people who think the Magic Jesus Box is balanced at 1.5 tons, with features that aren't even part of Angel ECM or Stealth armour, that doesn't generate 10 heat.


It's like being in a PUG match...:Bads, Bads everywhere:

It is the game within the game...

[Cimarb]

Mcgral18, on 13 September 2014 - 08:51 PM, said:

I've read through the entire thread...I feel it can be summarized with:


Very much off topic, bads whining about Lurmageddon, and people who think the Magic Jesus Box is balanced at 1.5 tons, with features that aren't even part of Angel ECM or Stealth armour, that doesn't generate 10 heat.


It's like being in a PUG match...

That is funny, because I found myself doing the very same motion as the gecko when I scrolled down to your post...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Russ Bullock, on 13 September 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

I don't understand what this has to do withy statement. I was simply saying I can now do something like this, a week earlier I could not.

Because if you or Paul had a lick of sense we wouldn't be in this position. ECM would be more like Tabletop. We would have a real information warfare pillar. And LRMs would have been changed to be more like Living Legends in the first place.

Now we are going to spend 4 months fixing something so broken you are scared to add more of it to the game instead of you guys taking care of business in the first place.

You guys tip toe around major issues in this game then add convoluted mechanics like ECM and Ghost Heat. Its why everyone says development is glacial. This is a game based on battletech. I'm fine with you taking liberties. But ECM is nowhere near what it was intended and its messed up.

ECM counters TAG, NARC and Artemis so your never have the NARC issues we have now on Caustic. This is dumb. I'd have it fixed in about a day.

[kapusta11]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 September 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

Because if you or Paul had a lick of sense we wouldn't be in this position. ECM would be more like Tabletop. We would have a real information warfare pillar. And LRMs would have been changed to be more like Living Legends in the first place.

Now we are going to spend 4 months fixing something so broken you are scared to add more of it to the game instead of you guys taking care of business in the first place.

You guys tip toe around major issues in this game then add convoluted mechanics like ECM and Ghost Heat. Its why everyone says development is glacial. This is a game based on battletech. I'm fine with you taking liberties. But ECM is nowhere near what it was intended and its messed up.

ECM counters TAG, NARC and Artemis so your never have the NARC issues we have now on Caustic. This is dumb. I'd have it fixed in about a day.

LRMs are nowhere near what they were intended to be either.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

kapusta11, on 14 September 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

LRMs are nowhere near what they were intended to be either.

Duh? I said that in the post you quoted. First paragraph.

Thank you.

By the way. That is the issue. So many players unable to deal with LRMs due to lack of awareness or laziness. They have blinders on like the guy who replied to me. It's aad.

[kapusta11]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 September 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

Duh? I said that in the post you quoted. First paragraph.

Thank you.

By the way. That is the issue. So many players unable to deal with LRMs due to lack of awareness or laziness. They have blinders on like the guy who replied to me. It's aad.

Not everyone played MWLL, or TT and understand the issue and as far as it goes still don't, otherwise the thread would be called something like "LRM: A Dialogue" or "Just follow the TT already"

P.S. So many players unable to deal with ECM due to lack of awareness or laziness.

P.P.S. You should really fix that hostile attitude of yours.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

So the counter to LRM-boats are even more LRM-boats? Sounds legit.

Edit: As I said it, I say it again:
Low risk - low reward. Sitting back behind a rock and waiting for someone else to expose himself has a name: Camping. So in all honesty, it should be able to be countered as easy as it is to camp. And ECM does that. With a cheap part of equipment you counter camping. Zero skill of acting vs. zero skill of usage.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 14 September 2014 - 04:38 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

kapusta11, on 14 September 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Not everyone played MWLL, or TT and understand the issue and as far as it goes still don't, otherwise the thread would be called something like "LRM: A Dialogue" or "Just follow the TT already"

P.S. So many players unable to deal with ECM due to lack of awareness or laziness.

P.P.S. You should really fix that hostile attitude of yours.

LRMs and ECM are intertwined. If you change one the other needs changed. Its a disaster right now

If you can't be bothered to understand the MW games before this one and have a passing knowledge of TT you should not post in threads like this.

Also for your PS. I never die to LRMs unless I make a stupid mistake and I beat ECM all the time. But it doesn't mean I can't see the whole system is broken and it started with ECM being used as a way for PGI not to address and fix LRMs properly

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

LRMs and ECM are intertwined. If you change one the other needs changed. Its a disaster right now

Correct.

So if you want to nerf ECM, you have to make LRM boating to be something more risky - like exposing yourself. But thats not the case for LRMs, because they are supposed to be indirect fire weapons. So they will always stay at the low risk tier. This means, that:
- Either the rewards should be low (which is not the case, as they are quite high if you have a lock and hit)
- It should be countered quite easily (Which is the case right now)

There are - again - 7 counters to ECM. If a LRM boat is not able to use ANY of them, then the pilot simply sucks.
I rarely die on LRMs, I have no problems with them. The only map that gets bothersome is Alpine Peaks - but even there you can approach the enemy with a brawler from time to time. Nevertheless, the game-mechanic goes hand in hand with all aspects of the game, including other roles (frontline, medium-range-dakka, scouting, flanking etc - you know the drill) so if you change on part of the game, you also change the other parts of it.

So what is your take on that matter?

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 14 September 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Lol Roles? This game doesn't have roles. The maps are tiny and we have no real objectives.

[DocBach]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Correct.

So if you want to nerf ECM, you have to make LRM boating to be something more risky - like exposing yourself. But thats not the case for LRMs, because they are supposed to be indirect fire weapons. So they will always stay at the low risk tier. This means, that:
- Either the rewards should be low (which is not the case, as they are quite high if you have a lock and hit)
- It should be countered quite easily (Which is the case right now)

There are - again - 7 counters to ECM. If a LRM boat is not able to use ANY of them, then the pilot simply sucks.
I rarely die on LRMs, I have no problems with them. The only map that gets bothersome is Alpine Peaks - but even there you can approach the enemy with a brawler from time to time. Nevertheless, the game-mechanic goes hand in hand with all aspects of the game, including other roles (frontline, medium-range-dakka, scouting, flanking etc - you know the drill) so if you change on part of the game, you also change the other parts of it.

So what is your take on that matter?

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3720589

[stjobe]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

There are - again - 7 counters to ECM. If a LRM boat is not able to use ANY of them, then the pilot simply sucks.

So which one of these seven counters do you suggest for a CPLT-A1 pilot?

Unless you can be honest enough to admit that there's currently no good answer to that question, you have no place saying people suck.

And for the record, yes LRMs need changing too (since they're apparently OP in PUGs, UP in teams, but mostly because they're hard-countered by ECM without having extra equipment not necessarily available), along with ECM and the rest of the EW tools. But this offer from Paul only extends to ECM to begin with.

Edited by stjobe, 14 September 2014 - 05:13 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

You know, you do not HAVE to mount LRMs in every mech. What about SRMs? Yes, you are a frontline mech now... and?

But yes, if you want to play an LRM-boat, you can also put in NARC into your A1 - still enough missile slots left - in fact, 5 of them. You waste tonnage? Well, take a Stalker then? Its like "Meh, my Locust cannot mount a Railgun, change that!"

So it is again the combination of your loadout and your skills. If you think, you can only compete with an LRM-boat, you have to adapt to the current mechanic. As we discuss changing the mechanic, we should think about what makes sense. We have about 50 proposals for changing ECM right now, the number is still climbing. There is also some sort of agreement through most of those post, making the ECM more diverse and less of a one-trick-pony. This is good - I like that.

But back to your A1: As it can only mount missiles and nothing else, it is a pure specialist. A specialist requires support from its teammates to be effective, as it does not have any backup-abilities on its own. Still, there are ways to get a lock for even that mech:
- Adv. Sensor Range + BAP
- UAV
- NARC

As that mech is the epitome of "waiting for others to do the job" it should suffer several drawbacks. On the other hand, why not just Taking a C1 or a C4? Or mounting ... again - SRMs. Right now, if you need TAG for being effective, you take obviously a mech that can mount a TAG. After the ECM changes, you might not need it anymore, so your A1 get even more valid. But as I already said, you can always spot for yourself - you still have 3 counters left in your A1.

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 14 September 2014 - 05:28 AM.