632 replies to this topic

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 September 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Nice try with the "I'm rubber your glue" come back, but seriously, read that. If he doesn't have problems with LRMs, why is he worried about games lasting 12 minutes while teams sit back and lob LRMs (only bads do that, total and utter bads)? Why does he bring up Caustic and Alpine? Why does he seem to think PUGs can't deal with LRMs?

I am not in his brain, but he was so friendly to tell you his thoughts. Other than that: Whatever mate. The topic is discussed on many frontlines and it doesn't matter what my or your opinion on that is, but what is logical and important for the game mechanic. I just give input and throughput and the ones crafting the mechanics can use it at their will. I provided a reasoning behind my arguments and thats it. If you like it or not, well thats personal taste, nothing more, nothing less.

You can yell at me all day, I hope you feel better now. Still, it does not change the logic behind the system.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Lootee, on 14 September 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

I would be all for making indirect fired LRMs less effective if it meant the magick JesusBox didn't prevent a whole class of weapon from being used on an enemy in plain sight.

Unless the indirect target is being lit up by TAG or has a Narc beacon attached to it, the indirect LRM spread should start off very wide. Maybe even as large as 30m. The longer the spotter targets the enemy mech and keeps it in LOS the tighter the spread should get until it becomes 'normal'.

Indirect fire is notoriously inaccurate in TT and spotters are supposed to be relaying corrections to the firing unit the whole time. This would be more in the spirit of the source material and removes the biggest gripe from the anti-LRM-no-skill-weapon-can't-see-the-target camp.

In exchange JesusBox should no longer prevent LRMs from locking onto a target that the launching unit has a clear LOS to. Block target sharing, damage info, loadout, increase lock-on time, negate Narc and Artemis, wutever. But get rid of the BS mechanic that prevents basic LRMs and streaks from being able to target a mech in plain sight.

If that's all they did to change ECM I'd be happy with it.

See, it's that simple.

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

You can yell at me all day, I hope you feel better now.

I don't feel better about crap, the only reason I'm still posting is I know Russ is reading. And I want to hammer into his brain that their implementation of ECM and handling of it since then has been one giant **** up.

Because it's indicative of EVERY mistake PGI has made.

And this whole committee thing is still bullcrap. Paul needs to get his head out of his own ass and see that ECM is dumb, Ghost Heat is dumb, perfect convergence is dumb, the new jump jets are dumb.

Everything they've done has slowly been killing this game.

[Ertur]

DocBach, on 13 September 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Quick question, if you could put ECM on every mech, would you?

No. On my TDK, what do I give up, speed or damage? On my Jenners, what do I give up, speed or damage? It's nice, sure. It's not insta-win god mode like the whiners here make it sound.

[DocBach]

Ertur, on 14 September 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

No. On my TDK, what do I give up, speed or damage? On my Jenners, what do I give up, speed or damage? It's nice, sure. It's not insta-win god mode like the whiners here make it sound.

I wonder why I see ECM on just about every (admittedly rare) COM-2D Commandos and the barely-larger-yet-smaller-than-the-Jenner SDR-5D Spider I come across?

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 14 September 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

I don't feel better about crap, the only reason I'm still posting is I know Russ is reading. And I want to hammer into his brain that their implementation of ECM and handling of it since then has been one giant **** up.

Because it's indicative of EVERY mistake PGI has made.

And this whole committee thing is still bullcrap. Paul needs to get his head out of his own ass and see that ECM is dumb, Ghost Heat is dumb, perfect convergence is dumb, the new jump jets are dumb.

Everything they've done has slowly been killing this game.

Which is why the forum is now full of suggestions to make it better. And people are discussing about it. From many viewpoints and angles. Why else do we have 30 pages of comments in here?

[Mcgral18]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Which is why the forum is now full of suggestions to make it better. And people are discussing about it. From many viewpoints and angles. Why else do we have 30 pages of comments in here?

Kneejerk comments.

[stjobe]

Ertur, on 14 September 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

No. On my TDK, what do I give up, speed or damage?

An XL210 still allows you to go 149.7 kph. I have Commandos that are slower than that, so I'd gladly "sacrifice" that little bit of speed for all the benefits of an ECM.

Ertur, on 14 September 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

It's nice, sure. It's not insta-win god mode like the whiners here make it sound.

Of course it's not "insta-win god mode", but it is extremely good for such a minor investment in weight and slots. I'd go so far as to say it's overpowered.

Again, the problem is that it was introduced as an anti-LRM piece of equipment, when ECM in BT didn't do squat against LRMs. It's implemented wrongly, and that's why there's so much problems and issues around it.

Edited by stjobe, 14 September 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[Grisolm Redd]

There is no denying that ECM encourages a certain playstyle, that while group oriented (good), is wildly out of balance (bad).

Part of the problem is the fact that outside its weight and slot cost, there is no reason NOT to take it if your mech can equip it. It removes the decision from the player. From the D-DC to the 2-D, the first thing you do is strip the weapons and equip ECM, then build around that weight/slot 'restriction'.

[Ertur]

stjobe, on 14 September 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

An XL210 still allows you to go 149.7 kph. I have Commandos that are slower than that, so I'd gladly "sacrifice" that little bit of speed for all the benefits of an ECM.


Of course it's not "insta-win god mode", but it is extremely good for such a minor investment in weight and slots. I'd go so far as to say it's overpowered.

Again, the problem is that it was introduced as an anti-LRM piece of equipment, when ECM in BT didn't do squat against LRMs. It's implemented wrongly, and that's why there's so much problems and issues around it.

IF it's so overpowered then why is it that for all of the ECM capable chassis that I have mastered, the non-ECM variants have the higher WLR and KDR's? My TDK has better stats than my 2D, my 5K spider has better stats than my 5D (and that one surprised me, I'll admit), my 2X raven has better stats than my 3L, my 2B Cicada has better stats than my 3C. This is a fact, the devs can confirm it.
It's nice, sure. It is not OP. It is not insta-win. It is not the biggest problem in the game right now. This last point is the most important. IT IS NOT THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE GAME RIGHT NOW. Frankly, I don't see that it is a problem at all. Even when I run an LRM mech, I have found ways to deal with it or ignore it. I usually don't boat just LRM's, either. If your issue is that you can't run 4 LRM launchers with nothing else, then that's just you having a bad build. I can't think of anything else that is dramatically affected aside from LRMs. Well, streaks maybe, but if you take streaks without BAP then bad build is bad build.
Why do we need to change the game to accommodate a few players' bad builds?

Oh and don't try to complain about information sharing in the solo pug queue, I'm sure I'd laugh myself to death.

edit to add: I am not going to slow down my TDK for ECM. Just no. Flat out, no. 22KPH slower? That's a silly trade. And it's no accident that the Spider and Commando ECM mechs are inherently slower than their non-ECM counterparts.

Edited by Ertur, 14 September 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ertur, on 14 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

IF it's so overpowered then why is it that for all of the ECM capable chassis that I have mastered, the non-ECM variants have the higher WLR and KDR's? My TDK has better stats than my 2D, my 5K spider has better stats than my 5D (and that one surprised me, I'll admit), my 2X raven has better stats than my 3L, my 2B Cicada has better stats than my 3C. This is a fact, the devs can confirm it.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you're playing them wrong (if not building them wrong).

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It's nice, sure. It is not OP. It is not insta-win. It is not the biggest problem in the game right now. This last point is the most important. IT IS NOT THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE GAME RIGHT NOW. Frankly, I don't see that it is a problem at all. Even when I run an LRM mech, I have found ways to deal with it or ignore it. I usually don't boat just LRM's, either. If your issue is that you can't run 4 LRM launchers with nothing else, then that's just you having a bad build. I can't think of anything else that is dramatically affected aside from LRMs. Well, streaks maybe, but if you take streaks without BAP then bad build is bad build.
Why do we need to change the game to accommodate a few players' bad builds?

If it were only that simple. BAP is mandatory for all Streak boats... so that's not a problem for the most part.

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edit to add: I am not going to slow down my TDK for ECM. Just no. Flat out, no. 22KPH slower? That's a silly trade. And it's no accident that the Spider and Commando ECM mechs are inherently slower than their non-ECM counterparts.

If you don't understand ECM or use it to benefit the team, then you are simply playing a different game from the rest of us. A Commando-2D is a far greater threat than a TDK (the TDK is a better offensive threat/nuisance)... it might not be the offensive aspect, but on the defensive aspect of things.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 September 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[Cimarb]

Ertur, on 14 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

IF it's so overpowered then why is it that for all of the ECM capable chassis that I have mastered, the non-ECM variants have the higher WLR and KDR's? My TDK has better stats than my 2D, my 5K spider has better stats than my 5D (and that one surprised me, I'll admit), my 2X raven has better stats than my 3L, my 2B Cicada has better stats than my 3C. This is a fact, the devs can confirm it.
It's nice, sure. It is not OP. It is not insta-win. It is not the biggest problem in the game right now. This last point is the most important. IT IS NOT THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE GAME RIGHT NOW. Frankly, I don't see that it is a problem at all. Even when I run an LRM mech, I have found ways to deal with it or ignore it. I usually don't boat just LRM's, either. If your issue is that you can't run 4 LRM launchers with nothing else, then that's just you having a bad build. I can't think of anything else that is dramatically affected aside from LRMs. Well, streaks maybe, but if you take streaks without BAP then bad build is bad build.
Why do we need to change the game to accommodate a few players' bad builds?

Oh and don't try to complain about information sharing in the solo pug queue, I'm sure I'd laugh myself to death.

You have completely missed the issue due to your severe bias against the topic in question.

You are an aberration regarding your stats, and it may also be due to your bias and/or playstyle.

The ECM weighs 1.5 tons and 2 crits, and provides you and every teammate within 180 meters with complete immunity to lock on and targeting to an unlimited range unless countered.

To counter in the most cost-effective manner, you must equip an item that weighs at least 1 ton and 1 crit (TAG) and maintain a clear line of sight to the targeted mech the entire time you want to retain the lock, out to a maximum distance of 750 meters.

The only other way to counter the ECM with a piece of equipment of similar size is the BAP, which only works to a range of 150 meters (120 for IS). This is totally useless at any range beyond that, and is negated if they have more than one ECM in range.

You can also counter it with a PPC/ERPPC, but must hit the ECM mech at least every 4 seconds or lose any locks on the target. If lock is lost for even a fraction of a second, reacquiring lock is nearly impossible before the missiles are wasted.

The last option is NARC, which is considerably heavier, requires a direct target hit, and is countered by any additional ECMs in range.

There is a reason that ECM is limited to very few mechs, and that is because it is blatantly overpowered for its size and weight. The fact that PGI has made this an official community project also speaks to how broken the IW system is.

That all being said, I run LRM boats quite often and have learned to do quite well even against ECM-covered mechs. That does not mean that the system is not borked, though, but simply that I have adapted to that imbalance for lack of any other option.

[Ertur]

ECM is doing what ECM does IRL. That's how it works. It prevents radar from working at long range. You can 'burn through' it up close (which is what BAP is doing). What is missing in the game is the ability to get a rough bearing to the ECM signal, but without range information it is useless for targeting. I mean, sure if they had that then you and a buddy could triangulate and figure out what grid square an ECM mech is in, but you'd probably already know where it was just from being familiar with the map.

Maybe what the game needs is the ability to have a toggle for IR locking instead of only radar locking. IR would be line of sight only. But IR locks should be affected by the ambient temp so that on Caustic or Tourmaline it would take twice as long while on Terra Mordor it would be nearly impossible.

Also, LOL at the ad hominems. I've been playing for over a year. I know how to use ECM. I know how to counter ECM. It's because of and not despite that knowledge that I know that this is not that big of a problem.
Hey let's ignore hit reg and rubberbanding and desyncs and all of the other issues that affect everyone to nerf something that isn't that much of a problem.

[Wolfways]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

BTW, nobody likes cheap campers, so good luck with buffing LRMs.

You mean idiots who despise anything but their own preferred playstyle.

Artillery guys in the military must love that they are considered cheap campers...

[Wolfways]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

Which is currently used again boats. Thats why we have the 3 AMS kitfox for, right? Because we counter Boats with Boats. Which - you already said is, is bad design.

Umm...no. The Kit Fox-C is a stock mech designed as a scout mech. The reason it has ECM and 3xAMS is it needs more protection than other light mechs because it's slower.
It has nothing to do with boats.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Wolfways, on 14 September 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

You mean idiots who despise anything but their own preferred playstyle.

Exactly, like LRM-biased campers. ;-)

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Artillery guys in the military must love that they are considered cheap campers...

So they are all alone? No frontline, no spotter, nothing? Interesting.

Wolfways, on 14 September 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

Umm...no. The Kit Fox-C is a stock mech designed as a scout mech. The reason it has ECM and 3xAMS is it needs more protection than other light mechs because it's slower.
It has nothing to do with boats.

Like the Adder... oh wait. It has much more armor protection, right? Sure thing.


Windmills everywhere. But well, I still search for... erm... arguments? You now, on topic and such. Something like that?

Edited by Túatha Dé Danann, 14 September 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Ertur, on 14 September 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

ECM is doing what ECM does IRL. That's how it works. It prevents radar from working at long range. You can 'burn through' it up close (which is what BAP is doing).

That's not even remotely close to how ECM works IRL.

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Hey let's ignore hit reg and rubberbanding and desyncs and all of the other issues that affect everyone to nerf something that isn't that much of a problem.

All those issues don't require player input, so yes, we can safely "ignore" them, because fixing those issues doesn't involve us in any way aside from testing the result.

[Wolfways]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

If the LRMs get that indirect buff, they change from a low-risk-medium-reward weapon they currently are to a low-risk-high-reward-weapon with one less counter. This needs to be outbalanced, so that other roles, like Brawlers, Snipers, Flankers etc. still have a reason to exists, without entirely being replaced by LRM-boats, because they have to highest ris-to-benefit-ratio. Do you agree? Yes? No? If not, please tell me why.

Indirect-fire is low risk, yes. But what exactly is the high reward (or medium reward even though i've never heard that before)?
That you missiles might get eaten up by AMS on the way to the target?
That the target knows when you fired and to take cover due to the warning?
That even if they do hit they spread the damage all over?
That they leave a huge trail through the sky broadcasting to all (especially the enemy lights) where the firer is?
That the enemy teams ECM completely negates your weapons?

LRM boats either sit back (as most seem to claim) and are easy prey for anyone who see's the missiles in the sky and flanks the boat, or they stay with their team reducing their range and being generally less valuable than a mech with direct-fire weapons.

LRM's are, imo, low risk-low reward. Actually, if you consider how bad they are compared to direct weapons they are high risk for your own team as they are more likely to lose.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Ertur, on 14 September 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

Maybe what the game needs is the ability to have a toggle for IR locking instead of only radar locking. IR would be line of sight only. But IR locks should be affected by the ambient temp so that on Caustic or Tourmaline it would take twice as long while on Terra Mordor it would be nearly impossible.

This is good. I like this idea. Either an IR targeting toggle or a dumbfire mode with more of a direct track and less of an arc.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Thank you for your constructive feedback.

Wolfways, on 14 September 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Indirect-fire is low risk, yes. But what exactly is the high reward (or medium reward even though i've never heard that before)?

LRM-60+ Boats can easily kill any enemy locked on within mere seconds without having to fear counter fire. Boating. Other mechs have the same benefit, but require LOS.

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That you missiles might get eaten up by AMS on the way to the target?

Against a real boat? Nope, 5/60+ is not "eaten away"

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That the target knows when you fired and to take cover due to the warning?

That is the re-balance of a target-tracking ability. You do not get any warning from SRMs, do you?

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That even if they do hit they spread the damage all over?

Which is also true for lasers, clan-acs, srms and any other weapon that is not pinpoint.

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That they leave a huge trail through the sky broadcasting to all (especially the enemy lights) where the firer is?

Which you cannot use if you have no LOS to fire back with direct fire weapons.

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That the enemy teams ECM completely negates your weapons?

Which is a problem, yes. And thus discussed here.

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LRM boats either sit back (as most seem to claim) and are easy prey for anyone who see's the missiles in the sky and flanks the boat, or they stay with their team reducing their range and being generally less valuable than a mech with direct-fire weapons.

Which is bad? You want buff them now or what? You remember the LURMAGEDDON we had after the speed increase for LRMs? Is that what you call diversity in gameplay or role warfare? No? Then why did everyone used it? And is still the most used weapon in (lower tier) PUG-matches?

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LRM's are, imo, low risk-low reward. Actually, if you consider how bad they are compared to direct weapons they are high risk for your own team as they are more likely to lose.

Really? Well, thats your opinion then.

[Wolfways]

Túatha Dé Danann, on 14 September 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

Exactly, like LRM-biased campers. ;-)

LRM players (and some who don't use LRM's) only complain about ECM, not about other playstyles or weapon choices. Imo the only people who don't want ECM changed to not block missile locks are those who are bad players and need their LRM umbrella or those who just hate LRM's because they don't use them and "reasons".
Most people complaining about "no-skill LRM's" don't even realize that the chance of getting hit by LRM's has less to do with the firer and more to do with their own skill. LRM's have been hugely nerfed in the transition from TT to MWO. How many people have complained about LRM's in TT for the past 30 years? Probably very few.
The majority of people posting here about OP LRM's don't even know what they are talking about, they just assume LRM's are OP because they haven't or can't learn to deal with them. If LRM's were actually OP why are there players who aren't bothered by them, or those (me) who believe LRM's (at least in direct-fire) need a big buff? (This is where people accuse me of wanting to protect my LRM boat...which I've never had )

No weapon system should be negated by a piece of equipment, ever.