77 replies to this topic

[Kell Commander]

So then can you actually give the IS UAC 5 some modules? You guys left the weapon out!

[Asmosis]

You know it'd be a whole lot simpler if they changed the ghost heat delay from 0.5 sec to 0.45 sec and stopped nerfing weapons that have short delays.

[Y E O N N E]

Carrie Harder, on 13 September 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Firing multiple AC/2 simultaneously (not staggered) also bypasses heat. It doesn't shake cockpits as much, or provide as much dakka dakka as staggered, but it does help increase pinpoint lethality and of course avoid extra heat from paranormal sources.

I'm not disagreeing that heat on AC/2s is dumb, in fact I think it's dumber than any other weapon on the list because it penalizes staggered fire even though the entire purpose of heat in the first place was to encourage staggered fire over alpha striking. However, I also want a gun that inflicts a more noticeable amount of damage, rather than being mostly a psychological weapon. Ideally, I'd want to see the weapon being used outside of the so-called "steering wheel underhive."

But that's the thing: AC/2s fire slow enough, even staggered, that there shouldn't be any ghost heat. I shouldn't need to chain-fire or group-fire to bypass it because it simply shouldn't exist with just two AC/2 given the current, existing mechanics of the game as advertised. They've got a line in their code that is allowing it to stack counters or something like that and it needs to be fixed.

As for psychological, nay. I don't want psychological, either. I want physical rattle (note, not blindness via explosions) that stacks with volume of fire and falls off with distance. I want those cross-hairs to be shaking so much you can't aim but with a prayer when inside the guns' optimum firing range. That's what AC/2s should be good at and, if they allow them to inflict high enough DPS and carry more ammo, they become a valid tool to keep something armed with bigger, slower, more front-loaded weapons hidden behind cover while faster allies move in to take it out. Alternatively, it would give squishier 'Mechs a chance against larger ones up close by substituting cockpit-shake for armor.

[Carrie Harder]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 September 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

But that's the thing: AC/2s fire slow enough, even staggered, that there shouldn't be any ghost heat. I shouldn't need to chain-fire or group-fire to bypass it because it simply shouldn't exist with just two AC/2 given the current, existing mechanics of the game as advertised. They've got a line in their code that is allowing it to stack counters or something like that and it needs to be fixed.

I don't disagree. However, I'd also like for a cooldown mod at the very least in addition to taking it off the heat list. The gun just feels so piddly right now.

Yeonne Greene, on 14 September 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

As for psychological, nay. I don't want psychological, either. I want physical rattle (note, not blindness via explosions) that stacks with volume of fire and falls off with distance. I want those cross-hairs to be shaking so much you can't aim but with a prayer when inside the guns' optimum firing range. That's what AC/2s should be good at and, if they allow them to inflict high enough DPS and carry more ammo, they become a valid tool to keep something armed with bigger, slower, more front-loaded weapons hidden behind cover while faster allies move in to take it out. Alternatively, it would give squishier 'Mechs a chance against larger ones up close by substituting cockpit-shake for armor.

When I said "psychological" effects earlier, cockpit shaking is what I was alluding to.


EDIT: I dug around in Weapons.XML and didn't find any specific "stacking" or w/e mechanics on the AC/2.

<Weapon id="1018" name="AutoCannon2" HardpointAliases="AutoCannon,Ballistic,LargeWeapon" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@AC2" descTag="@AC2_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\AutoCannon2.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="2" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="0.6" minheatpenaltylevel="4" impulse="0.0375" heat="1.0" cooldown="0.72" ammoType="AC2Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="720" maxRange="1440" tons="6" duration="0.0" lifetime="10.0" speed="2000" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0" />
	<EffectList>
	  <Effect name="Projectile" asset="objects/weapons/autocannon_shell.cgf" scale="1.0" mass="10" />
	  <Effect name="ProjectileMaterial" asset="mat_ac2" />
	  <Effect name="Muzzle" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_2.muzzle_flash" />
	  <Effect name="MuzzleFP" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_2.muzzle_flash_fp" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:Fire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac2_fire" float="0.0" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:PostFire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac2_tail" float="0.0" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:Reload" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac2_reload" float="0.5" />
	  <Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\ac_20.tif" />
	  <Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="direct" float="16" float2="16" />
	</EffectList>
	<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_AutoCannon_Destroyed" />
  </Weapon>

If there is some kind of "stacking" code, it might be a global thing instead of weapon-specific (the AC/2 in particular simply gets hit by it harder).

Edited by Carrie Harder, 14 September 2014 - 05:35 PM.

[Thorqemada]

Range Modules be outclassed by Cooldown Modules -> especially Short Range Weapon Modules as 30m in this game is nothing:

I suggest a change the way that all Range Modules give the same range increase of 80m (+80m falloff range if the weapon has one) as this gives all Range Modules a value that actually has an impact on the gameplay instead of being a cosmetic value.

[Bront]

Any chance we can get an answer to does the cLBX modules work for the cAC weapons as well since they're technically the same weapon?

Also, SSRMs, SRMs and LRMs should have a global module (Make it 6 million rather than 3). It's silly to have a module for LRM5s and that doesn't function on LRM10s.

Yeonne Greene, on 11 September 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

It doesn't need modules, it needs a different heat scale catch-point. Like, 4 or 5 instead of 3. You can fire two AC/2 faster by alternating triggers; this is faster than chain-fire. This incurs ghost heat, however, making it useless. This needs to be changed.

That doesn't fix the fact that a 12% cooldown reduction would trigger ghost heat with a single AC2.

Edited by Bront, 15 September 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[Thorqemada]

AC2 Cooldown is 0.72s so i dont know how a 12% reduction will affect 0.5s Ghost Heat?
The Cooldownwould still be >0.6s for the AC2 and should not affect Ghost Heat...or has GH changed?

[Y E O N N E]

Carrie Harder, on 14 September 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

I don't disagree. However, I'd also like for a cooldown mod at the very least in addition to taking it off the heat list. The gun just feels so piddly right now.

I would love modules on it, too. All I was meaning to say is that, with the way the game is set up, the suggestion for both a module and an increase in the catch-point to 4 could end up with a zero net-change in the AC/2 problems because the higher threshold got mitigated by a higher rate of fire. Instead, the AC/2 just needs ghost heat removed entirely; the Inner Sphere have no 'Mechs that can use more than 4 without making major sacrifices anyway.

Quote

When I said "psychological" effects earlier, cockpit shaking is what I was alluding to.

But it's only psychological without recoil. I want it to actually make it physically move the target so that his shots go wide on account of impulse. The way the game is currently set up, you can stick a piece of tape in the center of your monitor and use that to aim through cockpit rattle because all it does now is move the cross-hairs...and not by much in the AC/2's case because RoF is too low.

Quote

EDIT: I dug around in Weapons.XML and didn't find any specific "stacking" or w/e mechanics on the AC/2.

<Weapon id="1018" name="AutoCannon2" HardpointAliases="AutoCannon,Ballistic,LargeWeapon" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@AC2" descTag="@AC2_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\AutoCannon2.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="2" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="0.6" minheatpenaltylevel="4" impulse="0.0375" heat="1.0" cooldown="0.72" ammoType="AC2Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="720" maxRange="1440" tons="6" duration="0.0" lifetime="10.0" speed="2000" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0" />
	<EffectList>
	  <Effect name="Projectile" asset="objects/weapons/autocannon_shell.cgf" scale="1.0" mass="10" />
	  <Effect name="ProjectileMaterial" asset="mat_ac2" />
	  <Effect name="Muzzle" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_2.muzzle_flash" />
	  <Effect name="MuzzleFP" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_2.muzzle_flash_fp" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:Fire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac2_fire" float="0.0" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:PostFire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac2_tail" float="0.0" />
	  <Effect name="Sound:Reload" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac2_reload" float="0.5" />
	  <Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\ac_20.tif" />
	  <Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="direct" float="16" float2="16" />
	</EffectList>
	<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_AutoCannon_Destroyed" />
  </Weapon>

If there is some kind of "stacking" code, it might be a global thing instead of weapon-specific (the AC/2 in particular simply gets hit by it harder).

I am pretty sure it is a global thing because it effects all weapons (try it on the Nova with boated small pulse), it's just exacerbated by the AC/2 since it is a naturally fast-firing weapon to begin with. The only way you get exponential heat with any weapon is if the triggers are stacking. No stack would result in a flat-rate increase when firing over the trigger number. Instead, what we get is a penalty that increases with every shot of one weapon over the limit within the half-second buffer.

And you do see that cool-down number, yes? Even with a 17% reduction afforded by the combination of Fast Fire and a Level 5 module, the AC/2 shouldn't be generating ghost heat with even spaces between shots. It is physically impossible to get three shots out in half a second with even spacing. So why is chain-fire slowing it down and why are we getting ghost heat? Something isn't right. It's almost like the buffer isn't half a second, but more like six tenths to three-quarters of a second.

Bront, on 15 September 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

That doesn't fix the fact that a 12% cooldown reduction would trigger ghost heat with a single AC2.

I...don't think you understood what I wrote. I was acknowledging that.

[Bront]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 September 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

I...don't think you understood what I wrote. I was acknowledging that.

I wasn't clear in my point.

My point was that changing the number of AC2s that cause Ghost Heat doesn't make a proposed module function any better because of how ghost heat works, it would simply delay it's onset a bit.

I do see you addressing other issues around the AC2 though, and yes, the AC2 needs to be addressed in some way. Give it a bit more range, or fix the cooldown.

[DarthPeanut]

Been liking the added modules, using both range and cooldown on a few already. Glad to see that some of those weapons left out will be getting them.

Kell Commander, on 13 September 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

So then can you actually give the IS UAC 5 some modules? You guys left the weapon out!

Agreed, would like to see the Ultra get some love as well. Both range and cooldown.

[Y E O N N E]

Bront, on 16 September 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

I wasn't clear in my point.

My point was that changing the number of AC2s that cause Ghost Heat doesn't make a proposed module function any better because of how ghost heat works, it would simply delay it's onset a bit.

I do see you addressing other issues around the AC2 though, and yes, the AC2 needs to be addressed in some way. Give it a bit more range, or fix the cooldown.

That's exactly what I was getting at when I said to Carrie Harder that having modules and a trigger-number increase would be silly. The fire rate would again be fast enough to get exponential heat with two.

But like I said, the math says there shouldn't be any ghost heat at all with just two, even with the game the way it is now. It is not possible to fire three rounds evenly-spaced inside of half a second even adding modules into the equation with no other changes. What the game is doing is resetting the clock after every shot so, when it sees one round every 0.30-ish seconds with stagger fire, it says "golly jee, that's fast! Have some ghost heat!" even though that technically doesn't meet the condition for ghost heat as advertised: at least three rounds in less than 0.5 seconds.

Basically, their ghost heat algorithm needs revisiting so that it runs its own timer to see how many rounds it can fit inside 0.5 seconds at full-tilt rate of fire. It should take a sample check at regular intervals while the trigger is held instead of renewing the count at every shot.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 16 September 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[Bront]

Can't wait for the heat and damage modules. (Only other 2 variables they can change)

[Postumus]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 16 September 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Hey everyone,

The design team has shared with me that we may be looking at a slight delay to these features. We will be now looking to include them in the first patch of October on the 7th. Thanks for standing by.

Any word on any of the suggestions or feedback given? So far, I'm hearing:

-Modules are a form of C-Bill tax, since they have no downsides and are required for competitive play

-Despite being expensive and requiring a significant grind, range modules add a negligable benefit, especially for already short range weapons.

-People are using multiple modules for a single weapon (don't know if this is intended or not, but it encourages boating to maximize the benefit, and acts as even MORE of a tax)

-Not including a cooldown module for AC/2's penalizes people for using an already sub-par weapon, regardless of whether said module would incur heat penalties, which some people are saying wouldn't happen anyway (using a single 12% cooldown mod)

-Using 4 different modules for LRMs and 3 for SRMs is a serious pain in the butt, and serves no real purpose except as an extra CBill sink (Alternative would be a single, slightly more expensive module for each weapon type)

Would totally appreciate some feedback on this feedback.

Edited by Postumus, 16 September 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

No, no, it definitely would incur even more of a penalty on the AC/2 because it's not working properly to begin with.

I mean, yes give us the module, but please also fix the heat issues.

[Khobai]

Quote

Also, SSRMs, SRMs and LRMs should have a global module (Make it 6 million rather than 3). It's silly to have a module for LRM5s and that doesn't function on LRM10s.

Agreed. All weapons that share the same ammo type should also share the same module. All SRMs should share a module and all LRMs should share a module.

Also ballistic weapons should get less of a benefit from cooldown modules than energy/missile weapons.

And long-range weapons should get less of a benefit from range modules than short-range weapons.

[Mad Strike]

Great . I've just bought Ac5 cooldown module expecting more DPS and half hour later i read this........dammit !!! there goes 3m Cbs

[Asmosis]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 September 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

That's exactly what I was getting at when I said to Carrie Harder that having modules and a trigger-number increase would be silly. The fire rate would again be fast enough to get exponential heat with two.

But like I said, the math says there shouldn't be any ghost heat at all with just two, even with the game the way it is now. It is not possible to fire three rounds evenly-spaced inside of half a second even adding modules into the equation with no other changes. What the game is doing is resetting the clock after every shot so, when it sees one round every 0.30-ish seconds with stagger fire, it says "golly jee, that's fast! Have some ghost heat!" even though that technically doesn't meet the condition for ghost heat as advertised: at least three rounds in less than 0.5 seconds.

Basically, their ghost heat algorithm needs revisiting so that it runs its own timer to see how many rounds it can fit inside 0.5 seconds at full-tilt rate of fire. It should take a sample check at regular intervals while the trigger is held instead of renewing the count at every shot.

This is intentional though. The original purpose of ghost heat (for ac2's) was to prevent stagger firing like this since it was deemed to be "trollish" behavior to cause that much continuous cockpit shake.

Quite where that stance is now with clan AC's behaving the way they do I don't know.

Maybe they should remove ghost heat from ac2's entirely, but give them a "global" cooldown, so while you are on the cooldown for one ac2, you cannot fire any other ac2, but you can still fire all of them as a group. They seem to have the mechanics to do that apparently from their discussions around PPC/Gauss combo nerfs.

[Bront]

strikebrch, on 16 September 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Great . I've just bought Ac5 cooldown module expecting more DPS and half hour later i read this........dammit !!! there goes 3m Cbs

The first post is a typo he hasn't fixed, he meant AC2. They aren't taking away any modules (though, as stated before, they need to combine SRM and LRM modules)

[Y E O N N E]

Asmosis, on 17 September 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

This is intentional though. The original purpose of ghost heat (for ac2's) was to prevent stagger firing like this since it was deemed to be "trollish" behavior to cause that much continuous cockpit shake.

Quite where that stance is now with clan AC's behaving the way they do I don't know.

Maybe they should remove ghost heat from ac2's entirely, but give them a "global" cooldown, so while you are on the cooldown for one ac2, you cannot fire any other ac2, but you can still fire all of them as a group. They seem to have the mechanics to do that apparently from their discussions around PPC/Gauss combo nerfs.

The AC/2 is not and has never been anywhere near as effective at "trolling" with impulse and explosions as LRMs. I didn't see anything done to LRMs to curb that behavior in any meaningful way. Ergo, it was a silly decision to hit the already weak AC/2 with such a mechanic. The gun has no purpose except to offer a high rate of fire because that's all it was ever good at, and they took it away.

[Gorgo7]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 September 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

The AC/2 is not and has never been anywhere near as effective at "trolling" with impulse and explosions as LRMs. I didn't see anything done to LRMs to curb that behavior in any meaningful way. Ergo, it was a silly decision to hit the already weak AC/2 with such a mechanic. The gun has no purpose except to offer a high rate of fire because that's all it was ever good at, and they took it away.

Wow! Grab some cover!
The only shaking that is so nasty is the streams of LRM's from Clan machines or multiple launch platforms firing concentrated LRM5's at you.
Try standing in front of a jager with 5 AC2's!!! That is what is known as Dakka!
Oh, there was no recourse except to attempt to flee. Forget about return fire.
AC2's and Lrms are fine the way they are.