272 replies to this topic

[JeremyCrow]

Stop thinking World of Tanks and start thinking Eve Online. Seasons and resets kill the immersion and the meta game. Let the factions create unofficial alliances and politics and make the rewards worthwhile. If a faction is too powerful, balance it somehow. Let the players decide the course of CW.
Bring the feel of Michael Stackpole's books to this game.
Mechwarrior is not a sport and should be be seen as such.

[SmokinDave73]

Sadist Cain, on 11 September 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Riding a dropship into battle is the only thing that would drag myself and others back in...

We want what we came for...

This for sure, I really hope dropship mode becomes an option can not wait to be able to select 4 mechs and take them into a battle that means more then just 5-10 minutes deathmatch over nothing rinse and repeat. This would make non comp play fun again.

[Trevor Belmont]

I'm not a fan of respawn, nor being forced to bring 1 of each weight class. I'd rather pay some repair and rearm penalties, have to sit out 5 minutes, then drop in the same mech if the same match was still going on.

Edited by Trevor Belmont, 12 September 2014 - 03:47 AM.

[Chemie]

so what stops a team from selecting all 12 assault mechs to bring into first spawn?

[CyclonerM]

JeremyCrow, on 12 September 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

Stop thinking World of Tanks and start thinking Eve Online. Seasons and resets kill the immersion and the meta game. Let the factions create unofficial alliances and politics and make the rewards worthwhile. If a faction is too powerful, balance it somehow. Let the players decide the course of CW.
Bring the feel of Michael Stackpole's books to this game.
Mechwarrior is not a sport and should be be seen as such.

Give a medal to this guy!

[Naduk]

loving the drop ship ideas
but i have a suggestion

i think it would make more sense to assume that everybody has a preference to one weight class
if you did this it would mean very little change for things like the match maker as it only needs to find players with rank and class
surely it would make enforcing the 3's rule easier as it would a players pick a weight class deck and ready up (not really much different to now, pick mech and launch)
then you could have a drop deck per weight class so for larger organized units players can quickly select the weight they have been assigned and be ready

this would have the added benefit of allowing players to choose builds that might be appropriate for different stages of a map or have a few in case of hot/cold maps ect

during the selection of your 4 mechs for a drop deck you would not be able to select the same mech more than once
unless you own that mech multiple times, this will stop or reduce people bringing 4x atlas DDC to the field and we see a little variety, the exception to this would be trial mechs, que those up multiple times is a must

lastly this would stop teams from spawning 12 lights or 12 assaults at a time and causing all sorts of trouble

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Faction Switching - Making use of all of your 'Mech Inventory
... investigating the ability for units and players to switch factions at the end of a season.
IF the seasons are short, I would prefer units able to switch in steps ... for example:
- an IS House-aligned unit could switch to Merc (or, I guess Lone Wolf? are Lone Wolf Units a thing?)
- a Merc Unit could switch to any IS House they have positive loyalty with or Generic Clanner
- a Generic Clanner Unit could switch to any Clan they have positive loyalty (honor?) with
- a Clan-aligned unit could switch to Generic Clanner

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea that faction loyalty (honor?) points for a unit (if those will be a thing) would restrict which factions that unit could align with. Also, it would help slow down the "arms race" if one faction got too out of control.

... Seasons would last for [3] months (still to be determined)
Three months seems very quick.

Inter-Faction Combat
Yes, please!

Respawns
So, finally, the community benefits from a goof by Paul!

... I personally am not a fan of respawning but it just made sense for this type of game mode. Russ HATES respawns and when he saw the first design he was like "WOAH!!".
Me, too ... promotes careless play.

... Drop Ship mode would be very cool.
OMG, OMG, OMG ... GIMME, GIMME, GIMME!

... It's a scary undertaking but it's something that we are all passionate about in creating a very cool gaming experience for you the community.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU ...

OK, yeah, I'm not a fan of respawns, but dropship mode, where everyone gets to bring one of each weight class to the fight, seems like it would be epic ... like it could add serious tactical (dare I say strategic) depth to the game that it is sorely missing.

... I cannot 100% guarantee Drop Ship mode at this moment, but everyone on board is going to try to make it happen. I will update you all on the final discovery in the next CW update.
Seriously, thank you for the new-found openness and all the information. I don't think I've been this excited about MW:O since I bought my Founders Pack.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 12 September 2014 - 04:58 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

I have been waiting so long for dropship mode. Or rather I have been waiting so long for a game mode that was based on objective play. So far we have three versions of Skirmish with Conquest being the one where objectives have a little say, but even here it's just easier to just kill the enemies, because there is no respawn. That's why I've been waiting for dropship mode and currently have trouble typing because my hands are in the air with excitement.

But then I remembered that this was attack / defend. Does that mean that the defenders only win if they kill all the attackers or if the timer runs out? I hope not because then once again, it's just be a Skrimish variant with respawns. To be truly different and appeal to us who is missing objective play, then objectives should be the primary way to win. Killing all enemies could still be a secondary option if the match turns into a stalemate, but it should be paced so that the most likely victory condition is based on the objectives. You would be able to attract a whole new crowd if you pull it off.

People DO care about capping in conquest but mostly just to make sure they don't lose that way and then it's back to skirmish. Should the remaining enemy be a light that can't be caught or found, sure then they turn back to capping. Lets not repeat that.

Also another incentive for creating a game mode with objective play is that it creates much more room for role warfare, when there is a need for mechs doing other things than just dealing damage.

But if you do end up doing this right, then I might not want to play anything else. Also a thing to consider, maybe allowing this game mode in public matches.

Edited by Savage Wolf, 12 September 2014 - 04:34 AM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I can't play lately and it's making me so negative about MW:O again, thank you, hopefully CW P2 will make me want to use the 100 days of banked premium time I've had for over a year.

Thank you.

[Lex Peregrine]

I would like to re-post a sugestion I wrote in the other thread:

I would like to offer a sugestion for the respawn mode, make use of the decks.

If each player has to pick one mech of each class, let each player use all his mechs before the match ends, 3 respawns is more than enough I belive, and you could even introduce here an advantage for IS that would allow you to keep using 12vs12 (if you must), just give one less respawn for the clan faction and that will address the cannon idea that IS numbers were bigger. So at match end, the IS team possibly used 12x4=48 mechs while the Clan team possibly used 12x3=36 mechs.

How it should work, respawn should not be right after death, it should be per lance, in order to respawn the entire lance has to be killed, only then will 4 new mechs show up in the map. And it would kick ass if we actually saw the dropship fly in, drop the mechs somehow, and fly out, complete with defensive droship grade weapons, so any campers would get their buts kicked as the dropship lets the mechs out.

Personally I dont really like the barrier idea, game should end when one of the teams looses all mechs, or perhaps some sort of capture the flag similar to conquest where every capture point initially belongs to the defenders (except attacker drop zone that is not capturable), and lance leaders get a chance to decide where their droship delivers the lance, with valid options being the owned capturable zones plus the attacker's drop zone (for attackers only). And game ends when one team is wiped out, or attackers successfully capture every zone and defenders have nowhere else to respawn (and last mech is destroyed so no chance of recapturing). This would add a great strategic element, choose where to drop a fresh new lance.

[WintermuteOmega]

Just to be clear, as i understand it, the Dropship-Mode doesn't actually involve Dropships in any shape or form as of the concept of 4 Drop-Slots.

Having said that, HAVING a Dropship (as part of the FAction-Coffer), having them maybe even in the Maps (as staring points on much bigger maps, with something to conquer in the Middle of the map) would be HUGE

[CyclonerM]

Indeed. A planetary assault should involve protecting your drop zone and your Dropship, take key objectives on the planet or defeat most of the planet's defenders and force them to retreat offworld, chasing them and trying to take down their own dropships.

Edited by CyclonerM, 12 September 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[Kyone Akashi]

What I see sounds good.

Of course one possible issue with dropship mode might be players feeling "forced" to play a 'mech class they do not want, but if Dropship Mode is optional, this should not be a problem as these pilots would have the option of simply not queueing for it.

A bigger problem might be to make sure that the match does not turn lopsided and un-fun just because one side had a good start or the other had 1-2 bad/drunk/loner players. Towards the second half of the match, there is a big risk of players dropping out of the match entirely by having used up all their "respawns". This might eventually result in battles where some few good (or even just shy/defensive) players are left with several lives still in their pocket fighting a hopeless battle against a numerically superior foe.

This needs to be avoided. I would suggest "gating" respawns so that killed pilots only rejoin combat in small groups (2-4) rather than solo, thus at least delaying individual players from wasting all their "lives". Clever pilots would likely organise a staging/assembly area to group up by themselves, but I fear the game needs such a feature built-in and enforced to ensure a fun experience even with players who are not used to playing in teams.


In regards to the fears regarding players always selecting their Assault first, thus leading to matches with, say, 12 Atlases vs 12 Atlases, I would assume that the game uses current matchmaker deployment rules by enforcing a mixed (3 of each) weight class distribution.

However, what I think would be more fun would be for the game to use canon lance classifications and randomly assign players based on how the armies work in the Battletech background:

Light Lance configurations

• 4 Light
  
• 3 Light, 1 Medium
  
• 2 Light, 2 Medium
  
• 2 Light, 1 Medium, 1 Heavy

Medium Lance configurations

• 1 Light, 2 Medium, 1 Heavy
  
• 3 Medium, 1 Light
  
• 4 Medium
  
• 3 Medium, 1 Heavy
  
• 2 Medium, 2 Heavy

Heavy Lance configurations

• 1 Medium, 3 Heavy
  
• 4 Heavy
  
• 1 Medium, 2 Heavy, 1 Assault
  
• 3 Heavy, 1 Assault

Assault Lance configurations

• 1 Medium, 1 Heavy, 2 Assault
  
• 2 Heavy, 2 Assault
  
• 1 Heavy, 3 Assault
  
• 4 Assault

The individual lance variations within a category are considered roughly equivalent, and I believe it would add immersion to the game to include such a detail. Pre-grouped players would have a chance to set-up their lance to conform to the above system in order to create a valid drop selection, but the game would automatically balance this by granting the other team an equivalent lance.

Just a thought!

[Lusankya]

I like the idea of having seasons as long as there are stated goals for each faction at the start of each season. Then at the end of the season the factions players closest to reaching those objectives get some kind of reward.

[Kraven Kor]

Thank you for the fast answers.

I think most opponents of "respawns" will be OK with "reinforcements" if done in an immersive way, as has been discussed many times.

[RabbidFerret]

Kyone Akashi, on 12 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

What I see sounds good.

Of course one possible issue with dropship mode might be players feeling "forced" to play a 'mech class they do not want, but if Dropship Mode is optional, this should not be a problem as these pilots would have the option of simply not queueing for it.

A bigger problem might be to make sure that the match does not turn lopsided and un-fun just because one side had a good start or the other had 1-2 bad/drunk/loner players. Towards the second half of the match, there is a big risk of players dropping out of the match entirely by having used up all their "respawns". This might eventually result in battles where some few good (or even just shy/defensive) players are left with several lives still in their pocket fighting a hopeless battle against a numerically superior foe.

This needs to be avoided. I would suggest "gating" respawns so that killed pilots only rejoin combat in small groups (2-4) rather than solo, thus at least delaying individual players from wasting all their "lives". Clever pilots would likely organise a staging/assembly area to group up by themselves, but I fear the game needs such a feature built-in and enforced to ensure a fun experience even with players who are not used to playing in teams.


In regards to the fears regarding players always selecting their Assault first, thus leading to matches with, say, 12 Atlases vs 12 Atlases, I would assume that the game uses current matchmaker deployment rules by enforcing a mixed (3 of each) weight class distribution.

However, what I think would be more fun would be for the game to use canon lance classifications and randomly assign players based on how the armies work in the Battletech background:

Its been a long time since I've played MWO but I felt compelled to login and quote this post. CW has the potential to bring a lot of fans back if it's done right (or put the final nail in the coffin if executed poorly).

Kyone does an excellent job of highlighting some glaring problems: A few teammates being left with multiple lives while others are out and the 12-assault drop problem.

An old boss (and excellent designer) once said to me "Anyone can spot a problem. They might not know the right solution, but you need to respect their ability to know when something is wrong."


Interested to see how this plays out....

[Zyllos]

I think a respawn is needed in some type of match in this game. But the current single respawn with the same mech is not what I had in mind or like.

Tonnage and respawns need to be variable in some way.

This is why I like the idea of allowing players to pick any mechs, up to 4 but at least 1, that is equal to or lower than the tonnage allowed for each player. Then the respawns are controlled by the player and their tonnage. This also allows for variables to be modified by some mechanic so fights are slightly different.

An example is this particular planet allows for 100t per player and 4 respawns (up to 4 selectable mechs). Thus a single player can take an Atlas, or 4 Commandos, or 2 Jenners and 1 Cicada.

Another match might allow 110t per player and only 2 respawns (up to 2 selectable mechs). Thus a single player can take 2 Dragons, or a Centurion and Cataphract, or even 2 Commandos if they don't care about taking anything heavier though it would be to their benefit.

This allows for a match to be extremely variable by allowing drops to be focused on all high tonnage but with limited or no respawns going up against an extremely light company but with many respawns. This is what I think of respawn for a game like this. Nobody is forced to take certain mechs they don't want and it still allows for certain styles of drops but feel balanced. Want a drop with all Atlases? Go ahead, but expect to have to fight many mechs worth of respawns (maybe).

EDIT: This also allows for variability between sides. One side might get more tonnage but less mechs while the other side might get less tonnage but more mechs. Just a simple two variables, tonnage and selectable mechs, adds SO much to this game.

Edited by Zyllos, 12 September 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

I am, though, concerned (?) about organized 12-man attacking groups mopping the floor with disorganized thrown-together defenders, if I am reading this all right. And maybe that has already been addressed, if so I apologize.

Going to be hard to "do right" it would appear; Good Luck! We're all counting on you.

[OznerpaG]

Lex Peregrine, on 12 September 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

I would like to offer a suggestion for the respawn mode, make use of the decks.

How it should work, respawn should not be right after death, it should be per lance, in order to respawn the entire lance has to be killed, only then will 4 new mechs show up in the map. And it would kick ass if we actually saw the dropship fly in, drop the mechs somehow, and fly out, complete with defensive droship grade weapons, so any campers would get their buts kicked as the dropship lets the mechs out.

i was thinking this myself, respawns are only in groups of 4 so if you'r the first to die in your lance you have to wait for the other 3 to die before you drop in

another way of doing something similar is no respawns, but the matchmaker has a group of 4 new players/mechs ready to spawn when a lance (or 4 mechs on a team) dies. they can even spectate the match until they are ready to be dropped in so they get an idea of the situation.

this could work well with units that have more than 12 players - say a unit has 16 players ready to launch, the first 12 would play until 4 die, then the 4 waiting players would drop in and the first 4 that died would have to wait until another 4 teammates die to get their respawn


and finally there is a way to include 'bidding' into MWO - but it would work better if it was for both IS and Clan units

basically a unit could bid to attack/defend a planet where they would go in as a unit with X number of players and/or mechs, and they would bid on the amount of enemy respawns or amount of players the matchmaker will keep dropping in until the battle is considered over.

so if the unit First Guards Flankers (FGF) which has 12 players ready to drop bids to defend a planet and they bid themselves in with no respawns for themselves, they might bid to play against 24 attackers and the matchmaker would keep dropping new players in groups of 4 until either FGF are all dead or FGF has killed all 24 attackers. if FGF wins they keep the planet and get a reward, and if they lose they lose the planet and lose reputation/loyalty points. this would work great as a Unit vs PUGS and the unit would likely be co-ordinated and have chat going, while the PUGS would be...PUGS and be easier to kill off if they don't stay together

and say another unit bids to defend against 28 attackers, then FGF would lose the bid and not defend that world

would have to be fleshed out more of course, but sounds fun

Edited by JagdFlanker, 12 September 2014 - 06:50 AM.

[Cimarb]

That Guy, on 11 September 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

regarding the IS map reseting every few months at the end of the "season". I do not believe that the IS map should be reset. the purpose of CW it to have long lasting and permanent border changes, and this corresponds with the 1 to 1 time ratio that MWO wants to have. It somewhat removes the pressure that factions would feel after loosing territory, and cheapen any victory that a faction gains, as it will all simply be reversed in a month or two with out any player initiative.

from an administrative point its good to have breaks in the action for allowing players to swich sides, have stats, rewards and other such stuff, but if at all possible i think that these regular map resets should be avoided. also try using a different word instead of "season", like "operation", "phase", "front", campaign", or something else that is more in universe.

Also, about the drop ship mech selection. i think it may be better if each player joins the match as a class. so instead of one of each class, they have to bring 4 of one class. granted, you have not explained how the match making will happen in these fights (and how ridgedly 3333 is enforced), so depending on that model will determine the best way to choose a mech. from what it seems, it will be more like the private matches as opposed to a random match where you choose the mech in the waiting area, and not choose mech then get launched.

Two great points here, and I want to elaborate on them...
1) IF we are going to have some sort of reset, where we can change factions and such, have it be lore-based through using the "Wave", just like the Clan invasion actually was. For instance, we are currently in the pre-wave. Once the "season" starts, that would be Wave 1, and only the planets that changed hands during that wave of the Clan invasion in lore would be available for conflict. When the "season" ends, the planetary changes are locked in, everyone can choose to switch factions or not, and then the next "season" begins with Wave 2 planets in contest now. You can then follow lore, give the whiners their faction-changing, AND keep the timeline moving forward instead of some stutter-step broken record.
2) Dropship/Respawn. The vast majority of players prefer a certain weight class (or two). For instance, I am a Heavy+ pilot and prefer to only drop in Heavy and Assault mechs. I have a lot of friends that are Medium pilots, Light pilots, Heavy or Assault pilots like me, but the vast majority of people prefer 1-2 weight classes. While they (and I) may drop in all weight classes over the course of a night/weekend, it is primarily because of the daily XP bonus or 3/3/3/3 restriction in a large group. Because of that, I really think it would be better to have each person on the team pick one (or maybe two at most) weight class to drop with. This would allow the MM to work just like it does now, and prevent the "drop light and respawn heavy" issue that many people have brought up. Please at least consider.

Russ Bullock, on 11 September 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

We'll first off the length of the season is not determined yet, essentially it will be a determined length that captures the right amount of tension and excitement in watching the IS map being taken over. So I really don't think it's going to take away from immersion as you fear, but that for that thought - we will be keeping an eye on this.

Otherwise it seems just the right trade off to allow players to perhaps flip from clan to IS to not only get a chance to play their other mechs but perhaps to also try to cause a different outcome in the next season.

Also in talking with Jordan Weisman this is how they did it in the past product BT 3025 that everyone remembers so fondly.

Thank you very much for answering, but I really think this would be a bad way to do it. I cannot speak for everyone else, but I want a timeline that moves forward, not constantly being reset. Please, please see point 1 above and consider it. Lore really DOES matter to most of us. I have no problem with eSports, but it should be handled through a Solaris-type system, not Community Warfare. BTW, can I haz Solaris?...

CyclonerM, on 12 September 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

Please no respawns

It really kills immersion. Instead, to make battles last longer, i would rather go back to base to repair and rearm..

Same for the season. Russ, please consider objectives: conquering Terra for the Clans, conquering the homeworlds for the IS.

The invasion should feel like something that changes the face of the Inner Sphere forever, not like a football season :\

If a faction gets too strong, altering the power of balance, then the other factions might decide to turn against it. A touch of player politics would make it much more interesting

Again, we want to have a goal, and feel like every "season" is moving that goal forward, or fighting to push it backward (depending on your faction viewpoint). Please keep the timeline moving forward, not constantly in a time warp...

Chemie, on 12 September 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

so what stops a team from selecting all 12 assault mechs to bring into first spawn?

This is related to my second point above. Let us drop as a certain weight class, not 1 of each.