104 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

you do realize chainfire does not mean "stand in the open wait for one laser to fire, then let the other begin"?

When I do use my chainfire trigger, it's tap tap, or tap tap tap.... firing 1, 2 or 3 lasers essentially simultaneously, but with total control.

If you are leaving pauses in between shots, then I'm not sure I see a difference than just having a smaller group you fire at once.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 12 September 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

If you are leaving pauses in between shots, then I'm not sure I see a difference than just having a smaller group you fire at once.

because I can control exactly how much fire I use, and it frees up other triggers for larger groups.

[AssaultPig]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

I have over 15000 matches. I am relatively certain I have some idea how rare scenarios are, and I find myself in the one described with some regularity, unless i have a nice cool running ballistic to use instead. But then I also regularly multitask, firing LRMs at one target while fighting the one in front of me with lasers. And after 15k matches, I also know pretty well what component is about to pop on a mech looking at the wireframe. Though the IS buff on the HBK has thrown me off my game in regards their AC. Blasted thing used to pop the moment you hit IS, now it usually lasts until the torso is gone. Heh, got reminded of that last night.

of all the shots fired in a match, what fraction would you say are fired at a mech which is near death?

[Bishop Steiner]

AssaultPig, on 12 September 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

of all the shots fired in a match, what fraction would you say are fired at a mech which is near death?

percentage wise? Any number would be pulled out of my butt.

But out of the 12 enemy mechs, I regularly put the finishing touches on about 3 of them, and usually contribute in taking down 3-4 more. and of those 6-7 mechs per match, less than 1 has the good grace to simply eat an alpha (or multiple thereof) and die.

Inevitably, they need 1-3 more shots of various calibers to coax into the next life, and 3 out of 4 instances, I have to immediately start focusing on his friends.

[Tombstoner]

strikebrch, on 11 September 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

it depends on tap. I have my Dire Wolf's 3 Large pulse Lasers on chainfire allways because it allows me to deliver the exact ammount of damage i want from them and helps me save heat.

Some times i just keep firing one laser at the tine because in specific situations creates stress on enemy players by having continuous damages regardless of damage output which will end in two outcomes: he will twist his torso for minutes XD or rush in rage alpha firing everyone.

it also lets me correct my targeting and alpha the reminain for full effect.

[AssaultPig]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

percentage wise? Any number would be pulled out of my butt.

But out of the 12 enemy mechs, I regularly put the finishing touches on about 3 of them, and usually contribute in taking down 3-4 more. and of those 6-7 mechs per match, less than 1 has the good grace to simply eat an alpha (or multiple thereof) and die.

Inevitably, they need 1-3 more shots of various calibers to coax into the next life, and 3 out of 4 instances, I have to immediately start focusing on his friends.

the large majority of damage done in a match is going to be to mechs not immediately in danger of dying, which is kind of my point. There is maybe a rare circumstance where firing only one or two of your 4-6 medium lasers is optimal based on a mech's remaining health, but unless you're deliberately waiting until enemies are nearly dead to engage them these situations are going to represent a small portion of when you fire your weapons.

on some mechs, having a spare chainfire bind is no big deal. I have one on my 7xSPla firestarter because it's occasionally fun to run in circles around a clueless assault mech wubbing away. But it's not beneficial at all to play that way, it's just amusing. The number of situations where chain firing can actually said to be better than alpha striking lasers is really small, and the number of times the difference winds up actually being meaningful is smaller yet.

Edited by AssaultPig, 12 September 2014 - 08:57 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

AssaultPig, on 12 September 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

the large majority of damage done in a match is going to be to mechs not immediately in danger of dying, which is kind of my point. There is maybe a rare circumstance where firing only one or two of your 4-6 medium lasers is optimal based on a mech's remaining health, but unless you're deliberately waiting until enemies are nearly dead to engage them these situations are going to represent a small portion of when you fire your weapons.

on some mechs, having a spare chainfire bind is no big deal. I have one on my 7xSPla firestarter because it's occasionally fun to run in circles around a clueless assault mech wubbing away. But it's not beneficial at all to play that way, it's just amusing. The number of situations where chain firing can actually said to be better than alpha striking lasers is really small, and the number of times the difference winds up actually being meaningful is smaller yet.

[Elizander]

Constant pressure can cause inexperienced opponents to duck, twist or run away in the later stages of the fight. When everyone still has full armor though you are better off doing an Alpha.

[Kmieciu]

Elizander, on 12 September 2014 - 09:45 PM, said:

Constant pressure can cause inexperienced opponents to duck, twist or run away in the later stages of the fight. When everyone still has full armor though you are better off doing an Alpha.

Inexperienced players might not ever notice they are being damaged by 1 medium laser. There is no cockpit shake, no explosions, no smoke effects. Chain firing LRM5 or UACs is often useful. You can even keep that Dire Wolf occupied with your Commando by chain firing SRM2s.

Let's get back to the OP:

Lefty Lucy, on 11 September 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

I'm really tired of seeing mechs with 6 medium lasers having them all in a single chainfired group. When you fire your lasers like this, all you're doing is spreading damage ineffectually, instead of targeting the specific opponents that get you a kill or disable on an enemy mech.

You want a money shot, not laser bukakke.

If you've got 6 ML, divide them into groups. Divide them in torso/arm groups in order not to waste shots when firing up/down. Or even make a separate group for ridge humping (Stalker, Thunderbolt) or side-peeking.

But do not put your medium lasers on chainfire. Dealing 5 damage during 1 second is simply not worth the exposure. Your current target might be almost dead, but he might suddenly torso twist when he sees the damage indicator and most of your beam will miss. If you only need 5 damage to kill someone, it would take 1 second using a medium laser, or 0.16 seconds when using 6. The second option won't give him the time to torso twist.

During my 4000+ drops I have seen enemies close to death being focused on by a whole lance, and lasting good 15+ seconds. Remember all those time you shouted to your mic "why won't this guy die already"? There is no such thing as "one laser blast away from death" in MWO. Not with my European ping (120-130). That's why PPFLD was the only way to play for a long long time. High speed projectile weapons are dependable, lasers are not.

And while you are chain firing your ML to finish off my lance mate, I'm charging my Gauss rifles aiming at your weak spots. You might not know it, but you are closer to death than him :-)

Edited by Kmieciu, 13 September 2014 - 02:06 AM.

[Kilo 40]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

lulz!

[Mercules]

AssaultPig, on 12 September 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

of all the shots fired in a match, what fraction would you say are fired at a mech which is near death?

Why would it matter what the fraction is? It only matters when you find yourself in that situation.

Is mech dead/disarmed? No
Will 2 lasers finish it off? Probably
Can I rapidly tap a button 3 times so that three lasers go off and fire nearly simultaneously? Yes
Will that save me weapons and heat in case I need to fire on another target or help me not go into overheat? Yes

We are not holding in the chain fire trigger and waiting, waiting, waiting... We are tap-tap-tap faster than you can say that and firing exactly how many lasers we want instead of having to fire 3, 5, or 6.

AssaultPig, on 12 September 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

the large majority of damage done in a match is going to be to mechs not immediately in danger of dying, which is kind of my point. There is maybe a rare circumstance where firing only one or two of your 4-6 medium lasers is optimal based on a mech's remaining health, but unless you're deliberately waiting until enemies are nearly dead to engage them these situations are going to represent a small portion of when you fire your weapons.

Um... duh? What's your point?

AssaultPig, on 12 September 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

The number of situations where chain firing can actually said to be better than alpha striking lasers is really small, and the number of times the difference winds up actually being meaningful is smaller yet.

Is few more than none? I think that has been our point all along. Saying, "NEVER DO THIS!" Or "DON'T DO THIS." is rediculous. Saying, "You can do this, but you probably only want to do this when...." is practical and intelligent.

[AssaultPig]

a previous poster implied that situations where firing less than an alpha would be useful were not rare, so I asked how often those situations actually happen. And seems to turn out yes, they are indeed pretty rare.

in practice we can't always play perfectly; it does not make sense to plan your game around being able to aim perfectly and to always know the ideal number of lasers to fire to destroy a component. Players should err on the side of doing a bit of extra damage and/or their aim not being perfect.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

you quoted me initially; if you'd like to stop having a conversation, feel free to do so any time

[FDJustin]

I'm surprised this thread is still going... We're all(most all of us) very close to the same page, and I bet if you watched any individual play you'd find them chain firing and link firing in very similar situations to each other... With some variance made for skill level, preference, doctrine, and weapon loadout.

Anything said is only true a certain amount of time, no matter how smart or skilled the source.

[William Knight]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 September 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

better thing to PSA...do NOT, under any circumstance alpha your Nova-Prime trial mech...and hit override.

Even if you did just draw Terra Frikkin Therma for the 5th time in a row.

Everyone should do this once.

[Roland]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 September 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

ah Roland, you tact is delightful as ever.

I forgot that you are indeed the authority on al things MW/Battletech.

So by all means, next time you have an opponent with a cherry red internal CT, alpha strike him and shut down, so his teammate can kill you while defenseless. Or wait that extra 5-10 seconds for your heat to drop enough NOT to overheat and hope your opponent doesn't kill YOU in the meantime.

Or, you can have a second fire group with lasers on chain, which a GOOD player can then tapout near instantly 1-2-3 beams as needed to finish the job, NOW, without overheating.

Anyone who clings to either chainfire or alphas as the answer to everything, is the BAD.

Your black and white world is so cute.

As I pointed out, there is a place for a separate group of chainfired weapons, where you don't need an alpha strike to kill a mech... but that's really not the case we're talking about here.

Lucy's post is about people who run around and chainfire their lasers ALWAYS. Even when they aren't near the top of their heat bar.

Those players are doing so because they DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE GAME WORKS. Lucy's post is meant to try and explain why doing that is BAD. And it most definitely is bad. And when people say things like, "Hurr, I do it because I don't need to rely on alpha strikes! Alpha strikes are for noobs!" Those people are demonstrating that they don't really grasp how the game works either.

In the vast, vast, vast majority of cases, chainfiring your weapons is BAD. It's making you less effective at killing mechs. Some people are under the mistaken impression that chainfiring their lasers is somehow saving them heat, or making them run cooler, but this is CLEARLY NOT THE CASE, and believing such a thing illustrates a failure to understand what is happening.

There are a very few select cases where it's advantageous to not fire a full alpha strike.. but those cases are few and far between.

[Bishop Steiner]

AssaultPig, on 13 September 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

a previous poster implied that situations where firing less than an alpha would be useful were not rare, so I asked how often those situations actually happen. And seems to turn out yes, they are indeed pretty rare.

in practice we can't always play perfectly; it does not make sense to plan your game around being able to aim perfectly and to always know the ideal number of lasers to fire to destroy a component. Players should err on the side of doing a bit of extra damage and/or their aim not being perfect.



you quoted me initially; if you'd like to stop having a conversation, feel free to do so any time

geez, don't get prickly, man, seemed a fun way to say "hey dude, I play this game too, have for a long time, pretty sure you ain't the only one who knows how.".

Smile, realx, have some fun with these forums.

[Mercules]

Roland, on 13 September 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

Lucy's post is about people who run around and chainfire their lasers ALWAYS. Even when they aren't near the top of their heat bar.

Then Lucy should learn not to make blanket statements or statements that don't leave room for exceptions. Lucy would then get a lot less pushback and more agreement if Lucy stated something to the effect, "Chainfiring lasers, except in certain situations, is probably a bad idea." instead of:

Lefty Lucy, on 11 September 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

I'm really tired of seeing mechs with 6 medium lasers having them all in a single chainfired group. When you fire your lasers like this, all you're doing is spreading damage ineffectually, instead of targeting the specific opponents that get you a kill or disable on an enemy mech.

You want a money shot, not laser bukakke.

Saying, "If you chainfire you are bad." when you know good players will use chainfire effectively, even if it is rare and only in given circumstances, is opening yourself up to having your very general statement criticized.

Sometimes it's not what you are saying, but how you are saying it. Lefty Lucy is wrong. The statement in the OP is patently wrong. The main reason it is wrong is because she is laying down a rule that doesn't apply universally. There are exceptions. Since the statement didn't leave room for those exceptions then Lefty Lucy should be smart enough to expect them to be pointed out and then smart enough after they were to go, yes you are correct, in those situations it might be better I was talking about the people who do it when not in that situation. Instead we get you "Laying Down the Law of Roland".

See, this is what is interesting. Both you and Lucy seem to think that because we go, "Well, there are times when it is useful." you can say, "You are wrong." and then add in, "Because most of the time that won't be true." like we don't get that. No duh.... MOST of the time it won't be true. However, when it is true then your black and white statement isn't true while our more grey statement is true in all cases.

You started out insulting us with an Ad Hominem attack:

Roland, on 12 September 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

When I saw this post from Lucy I knew we were gonna see a bunch of bads arguing against it.

From that point on your argument just got weaker and weaker as you made huge blanket statements about how bad chain firing is ignoring the fact that the majority of the posters were pointing out specific scenarios or circumstances where your point just wasn't true. Lucy's next post made the same error.

Chainfiring is not good in the majority of situations. In some it is. Lucy's observations also lack awareness of the other pilot's situation so really Lucy should maybe be a bit more object, a little less critical, and stop jumping to the conclusion(one you yourself makes) that anyone who chainfires probably doesn't understand the game.

Edited by Mercules, 13 September 2014 - 06:43 PM.

[Tzukasa]

All I have to say is that the top end competitive players I've seen do 1k+ dmg in a laser boat, None of them used chainfire.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tzukasa, on 13 September 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

All I have to say is that the top end competitive players I've seen do 1k+ dmg in a laser boat, None of them used chainfire.

can't say that has a lick to do with our bone of contention with this topic

[Ultimax]

Mercules, on 13 September 2014 - 06:42 PM, said:

Then Lucy should learn not to make blanket statements or statements that don't leave room for exceptions.

Sometimes it's not what you are saying, but how you are saying it. Lefty Lucy is wrong.

You have misread the statement you quoted, I'll highlight the important part.

Lefty Lucy, on 11 September 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

I'm really tired of seeing mechs with 6 medium lasers having them all in a single chainfired group.

Pay close attention to the bold, especially underlined, portions.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 September 2014 - 09:12 PM.