314 replies to this topic

[DontGetCrabs]

Since we are going totally real here with all the physics and such. Why don't we just take out everything in the game that doesn't really make since? Oh yea then it would be boring as hell. Hell freak'n yes we need huge core melt down explosions. They are cool, they add another element to the game, and would be awesome to watch. Who gives a rats *** if it doesn't make since? Last time I checked missiles that only go 650 meters didn't make any since or being able to actually see a laser beam with out some sort of smoke, dust, or night vision goggles.

[Lightfoot]

Adrienne Vorton, on 24 June 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

lol now we put enough evidence into this thread (scientific) that makes clear there is no nuclear boom if a fusion breaches..but hey, most ppl don´t read anyway

this will go on for ever i think...

All they have proved is that Tokamak can't explode. Tokamak can't even power itself.

If they think that a fusion reactor strong enough to drive a mech wouldn't explode if the fusion bottle was suddenly breached they are dreaming. Seriously, fusion is a very energetic event and you are trapping that within the core containment. If that containment is breached a serious kinetic event will occur releasing alot of trapped energy. I would imagine there would be a huge flash and an explosive release of hot plasma. Maybe not a mushroom cloud, but something very like what happened in the intros of MechWarrior 3 and MWO.

It's amusing that people point to the prototype Tokamak fusion plant and say with such conviction that all fusion reactors can't explode. What you mean is that Tokamak can't explode.

Edited by Lightfoot, 24 June 2012 - 01:58 AM.

[Adrienne Vorton]

you appearently didn´t read my other postings, lightfoot...but it´s okay

DontGetCrabs, on 24 June 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Since we are going totally real here with all the physics and such. Why don't we just take out everything in the game that doesn't really make since?

Adrienne Vorton, on 24 June 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

yea thats another story, i could live with ---say--- some electric flashing manteling the engine/ torso when the core breaches, some nice effect (like it appeared in mw4 BEFORE the boom for example)
but i dont think a nuclear blast is even necessary, aside from the technical part

[Teralitha]

DontGetCrabs, on 24 June 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Since we are going totally real here with all the physics and such. Why don't we just take out everything in the game that doesn't really make since? Oh yea then it would be boring as hell. Hell freak'n yes we need huge core melt down explosions. They are cool, they add another element to the game, and would be awesome to watch. Who gives a rats *** if it doesn't make since? Last time I checked missiles that only go 650 meters didn't make any since or being able to actually see a laser beam with out some sort of smoke, dust, or night vision goggles.

LOL love this guy....

[Aegic]

DontGetCrabs, on 24 June 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Last time I checked missiles that only go 650 meters didn't make any since or being able to actually see a laser beam with out some sort of smoke, dust, or night vision goggles.

Not saying I disagree with you, just that your argument is invalid here. If you look, I have been totally for explosions in this thread.

[Lightfoot]

Adrienne Vorton, on 24 June 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

you appearently didn´t read my other postings, lightfoot...but it´s okay

sorry, should have used "they". edited.

[GHQCommander]

I think they should try it at some point.

I would like them to blow big time when the pilot really pushes their heat levels a lot and does not shutdown even when at max heat plus under fire. Mechs would not just have a small explosion or fall like a Scottish drunk teenage girl only to be salvaged

[Xune]

read in Sana how the reactors work, nuff said

[The Boneshaman]

Razorin Faust, on 23 June 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Beside on the point of nobody willing to pilot a giant bomb.

in most PVP games I die anyways. So if they do go boom like in MW4 than I will be willing to go suicide bombing. Even if I did vote no.
Besides its not like IM really dying or anything.

[Aegic]

Xune, on 24 June 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

read in Sana how the reactors work, nuff said

Cool it says there is a small chance they will explode tearing a mech apart if the reactor takes too much damage too fast for the safeties to react. Even though at the same time it says it is an urban legend.

This means it happens, but is very rare.

About half way down the page. http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Technology

Quote

Fusion reactors do on very rare occasions die in a spectacular manner, but the majority of those times isn't due to an exploding reactor.
What normally happens is that the reactor core is breached allowing a large quantity of relatively cold air into the vacuum of the reactor chamber which puts out the fusion reaction instantly... but in so doing, the intruding air in the reactor chamber soaks up all the heat and comes blasting back out in a white-hot blinding gout of flame. Considering that it takes massive damage to breach a reactor core so quickly that the safety fields can't drop down before something intrudes into the chamber... the visual end effect is that the 'Mech has very nearly been blasted in half, followed very quickly by a blinding fireball. This is a spectacular way to decommission a fusion reactor - a rampaging super-hot oxygen flash fire - but it is not a nuclear blast.

In the last instance it will happen that a MechWarrior will figure out that they can overcharge the engine, causing the plasma ball to heat up to an amazingly high temperature - far beyond their normal operating range - and than kill the magnetic field quickly, causing the extremely overheated plasma to hit the reactor walls which causes the reactor lining to explosively evaporate. The result of this is that the reactor is over pressurized, which causes a respectable explosion - but again, not a nuclear explosion.

Edited by Aegic, 24 June 2012 - 02:13 AM.

[Foxmoan]

Horizon, on 22 June 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Did no one play Mech Assault in this thread?

Get out.

Lol but seriously, in cannon BT rules mechs just don't do that. This is all something the games decided looked cool and nothing more. Sadly this is still a game as well so it might happen, but im keeping faith that the devs will keep there word on keeping things as close to BT as possible and just not do it.

Here, ill just copy-paste some handy dandy info on mech reactors here from the wiki:
Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged, and they are absolutely no risk of being a fusion bomb. There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devestating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". The Thermal Expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.
Such dramatic failures are rare, though. It is difficult to sustain the fusion reaction and very easy to shutdown. Safety systems or damage to containment coils will almost always shut down the engine before such an explosion occurs. The massive shielding of the engine (in the case of standard fusion engines, this is a tungsten carbide shell that accounts for over 2/3 of the weight of the engine) usually buys the safety systems the milliseconds needed to shutdown the engine when severe damaged is inflicted.

If you like, read the full page here: http://www.sarna.net...i/Fusion_Engine

Edited by Foxmoan, 24 June 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[CheeseThief]

Voted yes, although only on if you took enough damage to breach the core and they were at extremely high heat.

Shut down or not the reactor is going to be extremely hot, so if there is coolant pouring into the breach and vaporising, then there should be a rather large bang. Not much damage to mechs next to it, but at the very least a large bang and a lot of dust kicked up.

[Arnie1808]

So really they may blow but it will look pretty with a funky light show (70's Disco style would be fun) but won't harm you because it doesn't go nuclear.

Edited by Arnie1808, 24 June 2012 - 02:26 AM.

[bikerbass77]

The way it should work is whether the fusion plant gets overloaded or not. If it does not then there is no fusion explosion and there would be more salvage for the winner of the fight, such as a repairable mech. If it does go then depending on how bad it is salvage could be a few weapon systems or nothing at all.

This would be in keeping with the way the Mechwarrior series.

[SHOCKWAVE393]

BDThumper, on 22 June 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Remember that a reactor in melt down merely builds up heat in an uncontrollable fashion but does not result in a nuclear detonation. Radiation is not affected or effected by temperature, the elemental compounds may be but the radioactive particles; alpha, beta (now considered a ray instead of a particle) and fast or thermal neutrons, or radioactive rays; gamma, beta, positron, or x-ray, are not.

A nuclear detonation requires a modicum of knowledge of not only radioactive materials but also electronics and chemical explosives to construct. The possibility of this happening in the environment is not probable even in a combat environment. The worst that happens is the reactor goes into melt down and changes the material around it into a gaseous radioactive state, which is released into the environment and the reactor core melts into the ground.

It would be rare for a nuclear reactor to achieve the heat needed to burn to the core of the earth. This is due to the heat dispersion into the atmosphere and the ability of the core to disassociate from itself.

Fission is even less likely to result in any type of explosion/detonation. A huge amount of pressure is needed to maintain fission and as soon as the pressure vessel is ruptured the hydrogen is released and the fission reactor runs out of energy to burn and the pressure in which to convert it.

You can trust me..I'm a doctor, well not the kind that helps people, but a radiation health physicist.

When did they change the classification of the alpha and beta particles? I just finish with my chemistry studies this quarter and didn't hear anything mentioned about the change. By "ray" do mean a point particle? because that would require it to be massless such as light,which is pure energy.
Its gunna suck if I have to research it all over again, not to mention the effects of alpha radioactive decay especially with the lanthanides =(

Edited by SHOCKWAVE393, 24 June 2012 - 02:44 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Lightfoot, on 24 June 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Actually MechWarrior 3 had full core breach explosions if a 'mech critically overheated. It was excluded from multiplayer because of Flamer 'mechs exploiting it, but if you give an AI Bot a config that could overheat alot like a Supernova they occasionally went up in a little mushroom cloud about 30 meters in diameter. Left a big crater too!

My bad then, never had it happen to me.

Still hoping PGI will go for the "canon" version of a fusion reactor that doesn't go "nukular", even if conventional heat explosions of mechs would still be in the game. Strongly against mushroom cloud nonsense, even sarna wiki says it just doesn't happen. Expanding gases blowing the heated chassis apart yes, but without the mushroom, the fallout and all that jazz. It's a conventional explosion.

I only hope not every mech destroyed would end up in a heat explosion... there was a satisfying feeling to see a gutted mech stand still for a second, flames slowly rising from the fuselage, only to keel over slowly in MW3. Mechs going BOOOOM every time in MW4 got old fast, I'm all for variety.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 24 June 2012 - 02:54 AM.

[Forren]

ITT:


Also, MechWarrior 3's intro had a mech's reactor go critical and explode, and MechWarrior 4, and MechWarrior 5 (Reboot)/MWO original trailer..

I agree with the Hard-Scifi guys for the common CT criticals, but I would love to see a random chance thing where your mech's reactor goes critical and explodes like the Soft-Scifi (or Rule of Cool, take your pick) guys want. It is obviously supported in the lore and rules, like I just described, despite whatever your misgivings about the particular author that overused the phenomenon may be.

And no, just getting this out there, I have not played MechAssault. The main game I have played is TT BT (Technically we were playing MechWarrior: The BattleTech Role Playing Game) with my friends and we have always used the rule that your mech could potentially explode (for us every adjacent hex was in range of damage) if the dice favored that outcome at the time.

[MizarPanzer]

I couple of things:

Even for a conventional fission reactor that we use in nuclear powerplants, a 'meltdown' (i.e. Cherynobyl) is not equivalent of an actual nuclear explosion (i.e. Hiroshima).

For a fusion reactor, a breach of the reactor will simply result in the reaction to stop. There will be a release of heat and light but nothing as dramatic as an actual nuclear weapon.

[Alex Wolfe]

Jazeera, on 24 June 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

ITT:


Also, MechWarrior 3's intro had a mech's reactor go critical and explode, and MechWarrior 4, and MechWarrior 5 (Reboot)/MWO original trailer..

I agree with the Hard-Scifi guys for the common CT criticals, but I would love to see a random chance thing where your mech's reactor goes critical and explodes like the Soft-Scifi (or Rule of Cool, take your pick) guys want. It is obviously supported in the lore and rules, like I just described, despite whatever your misgivings about the particular author that overused the phenomenon may be.

And no, just getting this out there, I have not played MechAssault. The main game I have played is TT BT (Technically we were playing MechWarrior: The BattleTech Role Playing Game) with my friends and we have always used the rule that your mech could potentially explode (for us every adjacent hex was in range of damage) if the dice favored that outcome at the time.

In your rush to use a meme, you've missed the point.

What isn't supported by rules is what this thread is asking: "go nuclear when the reactor goes down". Key word "nuclear", not merely "explode". Both mech canon and conventional knowledge lend no support here, so while a "huge mech explosion" may be in the cards, I guess it's a "no on mushrooms". Is "nuclear fallout that renders a patch of land uninhabitable"... critical... to your "fun"?

Well it's cool, but all those explosions (supported by rules) are still conventional heat explosions, and those in trailers may as well be conventional explosions rather than mini-nukes (hard to tell from just looking). Sure, let's have those once in a blue moon (so that they cannot be exploited). Why not.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 24 June 2012 - 03:46 AM.

[Reoh]

Just what we need, a nuclear-martyr perk in MWO.

NO THANKS!

Edited by Reoh, 24 June 2012 - 04:00 AM.