1306 replies to this topic

[Roadbeer]

Creovex, on 16 September 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Genius!

Who are you?

[Creovex]

Roadbeer, on 16 September 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Who are you?

Same person I was yesterday, maybe even the same person I will be tomorrow.

Bottome line... someone who knows this game DOES NOT need a player council but rather a recruitment/solid marketing department.

Biased player input will not make this game great, more players overall will. Welcome to the fundementals of F2P success


Player council = "I am drowning... and you are describing the water!"

[Creovex]

Don't mistake my dislike of the idea of the player council as a slight against PGI..... I respect what they are trying to do but think this is not the correct method to accomplish it. Find me a good player council and I will find you 5 that hurt the game they were meant to help.

Bravo to Russ for the wilingness.

[DaZur]

Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!

[KharnZor]

Roadbeer, on 16 September 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Who are you?

...come on man.

[Roadbeer]

KharnZor, on 16 September 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

...come on man.

Nah man, if someone is going to like and pile on an ad hominem, and I have to play all nice with an arm tied behind my back...

meh, carry on.

[MischiefSC]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 September 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

Generally the group; youre talking about here is called the developer

No, that's work a developer normally has to do with paid time that we'd rather see spent elsewhere.

It is work that could be offloaded to volunteers, because this community is chocked full of nerds with way too much time and a willingness to do work most people get paid to do and do it for hours and hours for free.

In most businesses they are called 'interns'. Here, we call them 'councils' or 'task forces'. Unpaid interns are unpaid interns though. This is the work you give them.

[Peiper]

Roland, on 16 September 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

The problem with your idea peiper, is that it doesn't allow for any refinement or combination of different ideas.. You would just have a big list of ideas that are likely to all be incomplete, where the best option would be a combination of elements from many of them.

That being said, I'm probably just gonna skip most of this junk at this point and post up a writeup on sensors I've been thinking about for a while.

I see your point, Roland. Here's another option: Create the 'idea' thread and let people 'like' the ideas they do most. Take the ideas with the most 'likes' - say the top five - and ask them to get together to form the council. They propose one or more revised plans to the public to vote on via a poll, and as ideas are further eliminated, and survivors refined, we may come up with a final solution that people can vote yes or no on. We're still voting on people's IDEAS, rather than their number of posts, popularity or notoriety.

MischiefSC, on 16 September 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Because people see a vague idea they like but that's not actually a mechanic that can implemented. 'Make ECM more like TT' would probably get a ton of upvotes. What does that even look like?

It looks like this:
http://mwomercs.com/...warfare-scouts/

MischiefSC, on 16 September 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

It will also have like 10 or 12 posts that would be similar, in varying degrees of detail.

Someone needs to pile them all into one idea (becaues they are the same idea in different words) and turn it into game mechanics.

If you'll note by my proposal, I take into account how the game would change because ECM has changed. All reasonable proposals have to address that. You can't change such an important game mechanic and not have the effects ripple throughout the game.

Perhaps, in order to reduce the number of ideas, a template could be made like:

1. How do you think ECM should be changed.
2. How would this affect the game.
3. What are the consequences of this change?
4. What else needs to change in response to ECM being changed?
A. List changes to existing equipment.
B. List new equipment.
5. How would these changes affect the game?
6. Write a statement explaining your reasoning for the change.
7. Notes, acknowledgements, revisions.

With such a template, every Tom, ****, and Harry won't post ideas like:

Just get rid of it!
Leave it alone!
I think ECM should make your mech glow green!

If they didn't answer all the above questions (should those questions be chosen), then nix the post. Better than another 50+ pages of posturing!!

Someone else suggested a new forum section just for this. Let's synthesize that idea with the above ideas. If so, here's what I would do. Create the idea thread as above. Let people vote. Top five or maybe even ten ideas would be selected and those ideas would get their own thread. Each idea could be then debated by the community, allowing the person to revise their idea according to player feedback and realizations. This way, each idea remains unique, but in a sense, each idea will be open to the public for scrutiny. The mods could pin all relevant threads, too, so each of the popular ideas don't get lost. Once there's been a week of revision time, those 5-10 ideas go up for another vote. Some are eliminated, leaving final ideas, which could then be debated on yet again, revised, whatever. Ideas then go up for a final round of elimination. Finally, the one last remaining idea - which will probably be quite brilliant - could be given a yes/no vote by the community.

Edited by Peiper, 16 September 2014 - 09:58 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Roadbeer, on 16 September 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

Nah man, if someone is going to like and pile on an ad hominem, and I have to play all nice with an arm tied behind my back...

meh, carry on.

So Ive noticed. WE have to forget the past, WE have to be nice but others dont.

[wanderer]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 September 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Didnt people freak out on #savemwo JUST because it had the Goon taint though?

Ppl need to get over that as well

If you're going to freak out because (Insert group here) ends up with someone on the council, you shouldn't be in the running.

If, say you'd toss an unholy fit because you happen to be from, say Kong and someone from Hard gets elected into the same council? Just withdraw now. Goons Ruin Everything ™ and you really believe this and, say Anders ended up on the top of the votes? Drop it now.

Anyone who can't hold down their lunch at the thought of even one person they don't being one person they have to work on this...isn't worth having there to do the job in the first place.

[N0MAD]

Peiper, on 16 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

I see your point, Roland. Here's another option: Create the 'idea' thread and let people 'like' the ideas they do most. Take the ideas with the most 'likes' - say the top five - and ask them to get together to form the council. They propose one or more revised plans to the public to vote on via a poll, and as ideas are further eliminated, and survivors refined, we may come up with a final solution that people can vote yes or no on. We're still voting on people's IDEAS, rather than their number of posts, popularity or notoriety.



It looks like this:
http://mwomercs.com/...warfare-scouts/



If you'll note by my proposal, I take into account how the game would change because ECM has changed. All reasonable proposals have to address that. You can't change such an important game mechanic and not have the effects ripple throughout the game.

Perhaps, in order to reduce the number of ideas, a template could be made like:

1. How do you think ECM should be changed.
2. How would this affect the game.
3. What are the consequences of this change?
4. What else needs to change in response to ECM being changed?
A. List changes to existing equipment.
B. List new equipment.
5. How would these changes affect the game?
6. Write a statement explaining your reasoning for the change.
7. Notes, acknowledgements, revisions.

With such a template, every Tom, ****, and Harry won't post ideas like:

Just get rid of it!
Leave it alone!
I think ECM should make your mech glow green!

If they didn't answer all the above questions (should those questions be chosen), then nix the post. Better than another 50+ pages of posturing!!

Someone else suggested a new forum section just for this. Let's synthesize that idea with the above ideas. If so, here's what I would do. Create the idea thread as above. Let people vote. Top five or maybe even ten ideas would be selected and those ideas would get their own thread. Each idea could be then debated by the community, allowing the person to revise their idea according to player feedback and realizations. This way, each idea remains unique, but in a sense, each idea will be open to the public for scrutiny. The mods could pin all relevant threads, too, so each of the popular ideas don't get lost. Once there's been a week of revision time, those 5-10 ideas go up for another vote. Some are eliminated, leaving final ideas, which could then be debated on yet again, revised, whatever. Ideas then go up for a final round of elimination. Finally, the one last remaining idea - which will probably be quite brilliant - could be given a yes/no vote by the community.

So how do you propose the Community vote or even know there is a vote considering the Majority of the population doesn't visit the forums? Or are you also of the opinion that only the SMALL percentage of the player base who visits the forum get to vote for the entire pop?
All of you Keep saying let the community vote on some forum post, but keep ignoring the fact that the forum is only inhabited by a Minority group

[Roadbeer]

wanderer, on 16 September 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

If you're going to freak out because (Insert group here) ends up with someone on the council, you shouldn't be in the running.

If, say you'd toss an unholy fit because you happen to be from, say Kong and someone from Hard gets elected into the same council? Just withdraw now. Goons Ruin Everything ™ and you really believe this and, say Anders ended up on the top of the votes? Drop it now.

Anyone who can't hold down their lunch at the thought of even one person they don't being one person they have to work on this...isn't worth having there to do the job in the first place.

I am Roadbeer, and I approve of this message.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

wanderer, on 16 September 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

If you're going to freak out because (Insert group here) ends up with someone on the council, you shouldn't be in the running.

If, say you'd toss an unholy fit because you happen to be from, say Kong and someone from Hard gets elected into the same council? Just withdraw now. Goons Ruin Everything ™ and you really believe this and, say Anders ended up on the top of the votes? Drop it now.

Anyone who can't hold down their lunch at the thought of even one person they don't being one person they have to work on this...isn't worth having there to do the job in the first place.

Hey the same **** happened in EVE when goons were running the CSM so copying that here wouldnt be the best idea you htink lol

[Roadbeer]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 September 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Hey the same **** happened in EVE when goons were running the CSM so copying that here wouldnt be the best idea you htink lol

Goons aren't the problem.

Needing more Sharkcat videos... now that's a problem.

[Mirkk Defwode]

I'm going to repeat what I had in another post.

---------------------------
I'm just going to say 'No'

I'm by far not a fan of the concept of a player integrated leadership system as with all politics it leads to people having their own agenda to push rather than being able to properly represent the community. As it's a volunteer position and then direct influence in the title it can be as much a detriment as a boon. You're going to see some folks that are part of the vocal minority rise up and win only to have some shoddy ideas get pushed as the "priority of the community" rather than actual issues.

Being able to reasonably present suggestions and have the community manager respond, or organize the ones they think are valid into a public forum and let us comment on that priority list or even links back to suggestion threads for issues would be a far better method of allowing player interaction. In all honesty that should be part of the community managers job, even it isn't publicly displayed to be looking at these forums and collating the feedback that is ever present, albeit sometimes vulgar/rude/profrain/hostile/offensive as it is into real functional feedback. Constructive feedback organized into coherent thoughts being presented should warrant reasonable conversations over the concerns of the community.

I feel everyone in the community should have an equal voice and their availability to come on here at say it as they will. I don't think some sort of representative group adequately represents everyone's interests in the end.
--------------------------------------
I'm against the idea of a council in general. If you want to see this work done have a volunteer collate the best threads and allow that to be pinned by a moderator and maintained for the current issues and the singular threads discussing those issues until an agreement is met. Keep things civil and leave it at that, if there is no activity for a while then a community manager should gather up the relevant data and pass it along.

Edited by Mirkk Defwode, 16 September 2014 - 10:20 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Roadbeer, on 16 September 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

Goons aren't the problem.

Needing more Sharkcat videos... now that's a problem.

Never said Goons were the problem. Its the ppl that think that the goons are the problem who are the problem

[Roadbeer]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 September 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

Never said Goons were the problem. Its the ppl that think that the goons are the problem who are the problem

Pretty much.
Everyone needs their boogeyman

[N0MAD]

Roadbeer, on 16 September 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Pretty much.
Everyone needs their boogeyman

Good to see you guys back.

[IraqiWalker]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

Okay everybody.

I want to try and move this concept forward, obviously this is a tough one with no shortage of ideas. There are a decent number of people out there that still are opposed to the concept or at least are somewhat fearful of the outcome.

I want to again assure everyone that were going to take this nice and slow and see if we can't create something that works for MWO. I won't go out and commit to a system that is already out there like say EVE, perhaps we end up there perhaps we don't. I am more interested in finding a nice balance between PGI and it's community. That is the starting point I think we all agree.

Ideally I think it should be a small manageable number, 12 is likley at the very far end of managable, but we also want to make sure everyone is represented.

The only idea I have currently is to take this thread, invite everyone that has been nominated to a teamspeak server. The first order of business will be discussing together how we can widdle that group down a manageable size, vote on that group of players for perhaps a certain "term"?

Once they are in place we can focus on our first Subject whether that remains ECM or perhaps a softball or two out the gate.

Thoughts?

Say when and where, and I'd be happy to show up.

Roland, on 16 September 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

I don't think anyone has ever accused me of pulling any punches when it comes to PGI or perceived problems with the current state of the game.

Roland and I have had our own shouting matches at some points, and anyone can sift through forum history to see it. However, I will absolutely confirm that he does not pull his punches. Of all the people I've had disagreements with, Roland is probably the most likely to get my vote, since the guy is a solid rational community member.

Actually, if Bishop hadn't beaten me to it. I was going to nominate Roland as well. I may disagree with him on several issues, but he has solid points to argue, and a different perspective than mine.

Hoax415, on 16 September 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

This sounds solid, perhaps 8 is a more manageable number to start with.

Softball is a solid suggestion, but I think 12 - 20 is a better choice (odd numbers to break ties. 13, 15, 17, 19, 21). We want more diversity. With fewer numbers I fear that we won't hit most of the corners.

Keep in mind, that this is my own concern, it may not be this way, after all.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 September 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Again, whittling it down perhaps more with who are or arent currently playing?

Wait, wouldn't that be working against unbanned players? Since most of them were incapable of playing the game?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something?

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 September 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

This is what im worried about given that ppl keep saying these guys will have no power at all... then whats the point?

Organizing things. Instead of having to sift through a 58 Page thread, how about sifting through a 4 page thread? The council is going to organize the community's suggestions and ideas, and present the clarified drafts to the community and PGI.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 16 September 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

THOSE are called forum mods

Not really. It is not the Mod's responsibility to codify player suggestions. They are there strictly to enforce the CoC, and respond to player reports.

Bhael Fire, on 16 September 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

I'm not down with Prom King/Queen elections. Sorry.

But if I had to vote for Prom King/Queen it'd be a toss up between Roadbeer and Sandpit.

For the election, I would rather we don't have a client poll. Most of the names nominated are active members on the forums. Client voting for this would devolve to who is the most popular competitive player. Players that are not active in the forums won't know most of the nominated players, what ideas they have suggested over the years, or any of that.

Instead they will recognize the names of competitive players and vote for them.

For example, players like Homeless Bill aren't well known by the inactive community. However, he's one of the most recommended players for this endeavour because the active players know who he is, and what he has done over the years.


Client polls are perfect for feature suggestions, not for elections like this.

FactorlanP, on 16 September 2014 - 09:03 PM, said:

I proposed, somewhere recently, that a special Forum section be set up for the specific purpose of proposing ideas. Player has an idea, he creates a thread and explains it. Then ALL posts in the thread MUST be a discussion of the idea. ANYTHING that is not actual discussion gets modded out.

Would require serious mod activity to keep the threads from being derailed, but might prove to be the best venue for ideas.

It's called Feature Suggestions, and we have it already.

http://mwomercs.com/...re-suggestions/

wanderer, on 16 September 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

If you're going to freak out because (Insert group here) ends up with someone on the council, you shouldn't be in the running.

If, say you'd toss an unholy fit because you happen to be from, say Kong and someone from Hard gets elected into the same council? Just withdraw now. Goons Ruin Everything ™ and you really believe this and, say Anders ended up on the top of the votes? Drop it now.

Anyone who can't hold down their lunch at the thought of even one person they don't being one person they have to work on this...isn't worth having there to do the job in the first place.

Quoted for truth.

N0MAD, on 16 September 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

So how do you propose the Community vote or even know there is a vote considering the Majority of the population doesn't visit the forums? Or are you also of the opinion that only the SMALL percentage of the player base who visits the forum get to vote for the entire pop?
All of you Keep saying let the community vote on some forum post, but keep ignoring the fact that the forum is only inhabited by a Minority group

Let the entire player base vote on feature suggestions. This election shouldn't be voted on by the entire player base, only the forum base should be allowed to vote on it. Mainly because it's a conversation between PGI and the community, so only those that want, or care to talk should be allowed to participate. Those that refuse to participate should have no bearing on the course of the election.

Mirkk Defwode, on 16 September 2014 - 10:18 PM, said:

I'm going to repeat what I had in another post.

---------------------------
I'm just going to say 'No'

I'm by far not a fan of the concept of a player integrated leadership system as with all politics it leads to people having their own agenda to push rather than being able to properly represent the community. As it's a volunteer position and then direct influence in the title it can be as much a detriment as a boon. You're going to see some folks that are part of the vocal minority rise up and win only to have some shoddy ideas get pushed as the "priority of the community" rather than actual issues.

Being able to reasonably present suggestions and have the community manager respond, or organize the ones they think are valid into a public forum and let us comment on that priority list or even links back to suggestion threads for issues would be a far better method of allowing player interaction. In all honesty that should be part of the community managers job, even it isn't publicly displayed to be looking at these forums and collating the feedback that is ever present, albeit sometimes vulgar/rude/profrain/hostile/offensive as it is into real functional feedback. Constructive feedback organized into coherent thoughts being presented should warrant reasonable conversations over the concerns of the community.

I feel everyone in the community should have an equal voice and their availability to come on here at say it as they will. I don't think some sort of representative group adequately represents everyone's interests in the end.
--------------------------------------
I'm against the idea of a council in general. If you want to see this work done have a volunteer collate the best threads and allow that to be pinned by a moderator and maintained for the current issues and the singular threads discussing those issues until an agreement is met. Keep things civil and leave it at that, if there is no activity for a while then a community manager should gather up the relevant data and pass it along.

You didn't read what the council's job is did you? The council is going to take all of the community's opinions, and codify them, and present them in a legible form to the whole community and PGI. The council isn't making any decisions, they just get to write up what the community has proposed to PGI, and the final decision is with PGI and the community.

Seriously folks, read the posts that you are responding to, and understand them.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 16 September 2014 - 11:06 PM.

[Mirkk Defwode]

IraqiWalker, on 16 September 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Say when and where, and I'd be happy to show up.


Roland and I have had our own shouting matches at some points, and anyone can sift through forum history to see it. However, I will absolutely confirm that he does not pull his punches. Of all the people I've had disagreements with, Roland is probably the most likely to get my vote, since the guy is a solid rational community member.

Actually, if Bishop hadn't beaten me to it. I was going to nominate Roland as well. I may disagree with him on several issues, but he has solid points to argue, and a different perspective than mine.




Softball is a solid suggestion, but I think 12 - 20 is a better choice (odd numbers to break ties. 13, 15, 17, 19, 21). We want more diversity. With fewer numbers I fear that we won't hit most of the corners.

Keep in mind, that this is my own concern, it may not be this way, after all.



Wait, wouldn't that be working against unbanned players? Since most of them were incapable of playing the game?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something?



Organizing things. Instead of having to sift through a 58 Page thread, how about sifting through a 4 page thread? The council is going to organize the community's suggestions and ideas, and present the clarified drafts to the community and PGI.


Not really. It is not the Mod's responsibility to codify player suggestions. They are there strictly to enforce the CoC, and respond to player reports.



For the election, I would rather we don't have a client poll. Most of the names nominated are active members on the forums. Client voting for this would devolve to who is the most popular competitive player. Players that are not active in the forums won't know most of the nominated players, what ideas they have suggested over the years, or any of that.

Instead they will recognize the names of competitive players and vote for them.

For example, players like Homeless Bill aren't well known by the inactive community. However, he's one of the most recommended players for this endeavour because the active players know who he is, and what he has done over the years.


Client polls are perfect for feature suggestions, not for elections like this.




It's called Feature Suggestions, and we have it already.

http://mwomercs.com/...re-suggestions/



Quoted for truth.



Let the entire player base vote on feature suggestions. This election shouldn't be voted on by the entire player base, only the forum base should be allowed to vote on it. Mainly because it's a conversation between PGI and the community, so only those that want, or care to talk should be allowed to participate. Those that refuse to participate should have no bearing on the course of the election.



You didn't read what the council's job is did you? The council is going to take all of the community's opinions, and codify them, and present them in a legible form to the whole community and PGI. The council isn't making any decisions, they just get to write up what the community has proposed to PGI, and the final decision is with PGI and the community.

Seriously folks, read the posts that you are responding to, and understand them.

All of this that is suggest for the Council to do should go to a PAID community manager that works with Moderators identifying the best suggestions with the most detail as to their intent and design.

This is something that should never fall back on community members to do. There is far too much personal interest in play for the players who are elected to speak on these issues and even then they may not bring forth all of the suggestions presented because of personal disdain for the person or their idea even if it has validity in it's nature or implementation.