1306 replies to this topic

[DEN_Ninja]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

Always an Odd number for voting purposes!

Pfft, odd number purists. Raise your right arm high and proud in honor of the number 42. Which is always the answer.

[Livewyr]

Bhael Fire, on 17 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

Exactly my point; I do not want an election.

I think we should be voting on features/ideas, not people.

Why is it hard to understand that the people you are/would be electing are synthesizing the FEATURES and IDEAS you want to vote for?

I do not want a poll with 12,000 options of similar but different ideas on which to vote. The people condense them down to much fewer ideas on which to vote.

[Pht]

RetroActive, on 15 September 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

I skimmed over your OP in the thread you referenced...wow a lot of thought went into that!

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But, I like the aiming system as it currently is. I do not advocate a change here. I enjoy the simplicity of seeing what I want to shoot, pointing, clicking and hitting the target if my aim is true.

Thanks.

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It's actually not that comlex to have to account for your 'mech's part of the aiming equation; because the things that make it harder for your mech to hit what you're aiming at are all quite intutitive. Run fast while hot and shoot at a running target that's in and out of trees... well, that's a harder shot. Move at a moderate pace, run cool, and pick targets that aren't evading or ducking in and out of cover; those are easier shots. Essentially it's saying that YES, you are aiming ... but (duh?) there's a weapon involved, a weapon you happen to be ... riding in.

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It doesn't bother me that I can hit things that real life physics would seem to prohibit. I treat this as a video game and I am not interested in a simulator.

You may not understand my POV here, but that's OK, man.....you know...personal preference and all that stuff.

I'd just like to see a mechwarrior game where the 'mechs actually performed in combat like ... 'mechs. I like and liked the books and the rest of the lore. Physics has far less to do with it than that. I DETEST complexity for complexity's sake.

Quote

I don't see where i PUSHED my opinion anywhere. Sure, I did state it. Am I not allowed?

Listen, I see a lot of ideas on these forums that I disagree with. I see a few that I agree with. Just because I don't agree with an idea you DO agree with does not mean that I am in any way dismissing your opinion.

I actually wouldn't mind if you pushed your own opinion and dismissed mine... as long as you had a valid reason for doing so.

EboneezeeR, on 15 September 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

SARNA dude only SARNA... the copyright, plus some company called Harmony Gold. That false "battletech" statement/source you can throw in a rubbish bin.

I can't quite sort out the gibberish statement you've made here, but you seem to be indicating that the people that MAKE, control, and otherwise OWN the lore are ... not (?!?!?) allowed to make, control, and own the lore?

That's the only way that the BT line developer and the writer of the lore I quoted could be a "false" source.

It's the same thing as if you were saying that quoting the powers that be at DC comics on a DC comics question was false. *Pure nonsense.*

[Bhael Fire]

Livewyr, on 17 September 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

I do not want a poll with 12,000 options of similar but different ideas on which to vote.

That's a bit dramatic, don't you think?

At most, there's about three or four good ideas at any given time that surface to top here in the forums. The good ideas naturally gain traction on their own, without the need for an elected body to censor these ideas. These are the ideas we put to an additional vote via the game client so that the entire player base can vote (not just the forum members).

Ultimately it's up to the professionals at PGI to weed through the minutiae and logistics of the best ideas that get elected from the final vote.

[IraqiWalker]

Creovex, on 17 September 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

I vote for interns and not forum jockies....

What's the difference? At leas the forum goers understand the game.

Peter2k, on 17 September 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

Long awesome post

We need more people like you in the forums.

Bhael Fire, on 17 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

Exactly my point; I do not want an election.

I think we should be voting on features/ideas, not people.

That's fine. However, to get to that stage, we need someone to find the ideas, and make a list of them. That's what the council will be doing. That's pretty much it, in a nutshell.

After that, we get to the client voting. I am all in favor of that.

Bhael Fire, on 17 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

That's a bit dramatic, don't you think?

At most, there's about three or four good ideas at any given time that surface to top here in the forums. The good ideas naturally gain traction on their own, without the need for an elected body to censor these ideas. These are the ideas we put to an additional vote via the game client so that the entire player base can vote (not just the forum members).

Ultimately it's up to the professionals at PGI to weed through the minutiae and logistics of the best ideas that get elected from the final vote.

Actually, not that dramatic.

Sift through the forums right now on a topic as contested as ECM, or LRMs, and I can guarantee you that you will find at least 8 ideas in each thread (where discussion was had, and not just insults), that are pretty much similar iterations of a single idea. If it's a thread with a decent number of posts (400+) that number tends to escalate quickly.

[Chronojam]

IraqiWalker, on 17 September 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

That's fine. However, to get to that stage, we need someone to find the ideas, and make a list of them. That's what the council will be doing. That's pretty much it, in a nutshell.

This should be everybody's take-away. If the council can do no more than simply point Russ et. al. to the most important hot-button issues, the relevant threads, and player proposals about those topics (if any), then it will still be filling a much-needed gap.

To rephrase something I posted offsite: Russ has been posting here a lot lately, which is great to see, but we can't expect that kind of involvement 24/7 -- this is why dedicated community management roles are supposed to exist. I get the feeling that past CM (and moderation in general) may have served to sugarcoat things, and been more interested in burying issues than letting concerns actually bubble up to those with the ability to do something about it.

[Creovex]

Tichorius Davion, on 17 September 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

This thread went to hell after I left. What the hell happened.

Seriously. Creovex I don't appreciate you being so critical of a document that previously had free editing permissions not just a full day ago for several days. The information on the far side is community comments that I will sort through and either delete or keep.

The hostile tones voiced by the numerous folks in this thread since last night hardly add any merit to the conversation. Pointed by the fact that a Mod had to step in.

It was junk.... Sorry to burst your illusion but it IS/WAS a total subjective waste. I can't say it enough, if you were my employee and tried to present that I would have laughed you out of the room and fired you. Your assumptions of some perceived value in it (because you put time into making it) is misleading you from the simple truths....

• The forum population is a minority sampling of the player base....so what makes you think these voices speak for a majority? (look up "sampling error")
  
• There was already an unofficial player council... called NGNG...
  
• Bias will play in ANY selection process (be it collecting ideas / deciding on mechanics to present....garbage in, garbage out)

I am done debating. I am have been playing MechWarrior since it first spawned on computer... and I will be playing it long afte this game is retired....



A business approach to the situation: Don't take forum members as they are, but enlist unpaid interns for this job.

REGARDLESS: Problem with this situation is that PGI already bailed on their own forums in the past by releasing information everywhere else but here first... that being said, trying the "Player Council PR Move" is a bad solution to misplaced anger from past communication mistakes. I applaud the intent, but this game can't handle it if this goes sideways...."Build on your recent successes and don't risk your new positive momentum on half cocked ideas.."

Edited by Creovex, 17 September 2014 - 09:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Tichorius Davion, on 17 September 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

Pfft, odd number purists. Raise your right arm high and proud in honor of the number 42. Which is always the answer.

Which right Arm? Can I interest you in a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster?

[Kh0rn]

I am looking for people who will bring more immersion, feel and depth into this game bring it more in line and feel like a mechwarrior game. Not worried about the comp side I would like too see this game turn into a true living breathing universe of battle tech so my votes would go too those who want that same idea.

[IraqiWalker]

Creovex, on 17 September 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

It was junk.... Sorry to burst your illusion but it IS/WAS a total subjective waste. I can't say it enough, if you were my employee and tried to present that I would have laughed you out of the room and fired you. Your assumptions of some perceived value in it (because you put time into making it) is misleading you from the simple truths....

• The forum population is a minority sampling of the player base....so what makes you think these voices speak for a majority?
  
• There was already an unofficial player council... called NGNG...
  
• Bias will play in ANY selection process (be it collecting ideas / deciding on mechanics to present....garbage in, garbage out)

I am done debating. I am have been playing MechWarrior since it first spawned on computer... and I will be playing it long afte this game is retired....



A business approach to the situation: Don't take forum members as they are, but enlist unpaid interns for this job.

REGARDLESS: Problem with this situation is that PGI already bailed on their own forums in the past by releasing information everywhere else but here first... that being said, trying the "Player Council PR Move" is a bad solution to misplaced anger from past communication mistakes. I applaud the intent, but this game can't handle it if this goes sideways...."Build on your recent successes and don't risk your new positive momentum on half cocked ideas.."

All fun points, and either un-related or wrong.

Seriously, stop with the aggressive language, there is a difference between being direct, and idiotically aggressive, and insulting.

The forum might be a minority, but it's the ones that are talkign with PGI, anyone not talking with PGI is forfeit int heir opinion.

[DEN_Ninja]

Creovex, on 17 September 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

Snip

Man, you've lost me so many times so far. I am not particularly sure how to respond to you anymore. There are some points that just flew right over your head or something.

The Doc is a Simple tool to see who was nominated in the event that we have council

Are you arguing that PGI needs to take time out of the day to hire interns to do this work? Interns...
Or you can just ask the available community to gather the ideas and present them.

Anyone have any idea on what Creo is being so aggressive about?

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 17 September 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[Creovex]

Tichorius Davion, on 17 September 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Man, you've lost me so many times so far. I am not particularly sure how to respond to you anymore. There are some points that just flew right over your head or something.

Not surprised... it is what it is...

Edited by Creovex, 17 September 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[Chronojam]

Creovex, on 17 September 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

• The forum population is a minority sampling of the player base....so what makes you think these voices speak for a majority?
  
• There was already an unofficial player council... called NGNG...
  
• Bias will play in ANY selection process (be it collecting ideas / deciding on mechanics to present....garbage in, garbage out)

Representative samples are often much, much smaller than the total population. For example, reliable exit polling from a scant few sites across the country can be used to predict elections in a country as large as the United States.

There is no reason to believe that players who visit the forums, and those who do not, experience a substantially different game. Your BattleMech does not perform differently by virtue of visiting the forum, although your awareness of its capabilities, overall game mechanics, and skill may improve.

As the forum population inherently has a tendency to talk about issues, this makes them useful when you want to talk about issues. Players who have been unwilling to discuss the game may not be prepared to discuss the game in depth, and if you want me to turn what you said around: "What makes you think these silent players will speak, at length, considering they've remained silent?"

NGNG has long been controversial, as they have/had an incentive to sugarcoat issues. With exclusive access to the devs and money changing hands, and now outright paid staff, it's difficult for many to see them as an impartial channel to talk about the game.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Ok basically I'm against this, but since this is going to be a thing I will put my nominees out with reasons why.

COMPETIVITE (2 nominees)

Adiuvo - As a highly skilled light pilot and competitive veteran he has a view point of a scout. He can point out things from the scouting aspect in competitive play as well as in PUG solo and group queue. Has very good understanding of metagaming in NA competitive scene.

kaffeangst - Being the officer in both House of Lords and Black Spikes and being veteran competitive player from the days of DV8 he has good understanding of both NA competitive (that is more range focused) and EU competitive (that is more brawling focused). He is also an excellent drop commander and one of the best D-DC-pilots in game to this date.

While both nominees come from House of Lords, these two players have understanding beyond their team since they play alot with other competitive players also. OFC there are alot of smart competitive players around, but quite frankly only kaffeangst has the experience (imho ofc) to represent the competitive scene assault player.

SCIENCE (2 nominees)

Li Song - Very intelligent and mathematically gifted individual who has a good knowledge both metagaming and the numbers involved considering the finer mechanics of the game. She is the developer of Li Song Mechlab.

oneproduct - Understanding of the coding aspect to actually putting the features in game. Can review possibilities of implementations.

CASUAL (2 nominees)

Koninving - Is one of the few who has the time to get into new player experience. Played since closed beta and has understanding what it is to start a new account on MWO and try to get better in an almost impossible scenario. Able to bring insight that other players are practically blind to.

DocBach - Mature and smart player who has the knowledge from TT to implementation to MWO. Is very delved into ECM mechanic and can rationalize suggestions because of his knowledge.

OTHER (2 nominees)

Chronojam - Even though banned (?) he has argued against decicions made with reason. Smart guy with proper critique to matters.

Deathlike - Also a man of reason. He has experience from almost every mech released on MWO. Knows alot of stuff and one of the best (more) casual players.

There you have it. I would like to see the council formed from well presented players. If this is going to be a competitive circle jerk, it's not going to work. If this is going to be casual circle jerk, it's not going to work. I hope to see variety in the council that takes alot of things into account. Inner Sphere PPC speed nerf was a sad example when NA competitive crowd gets to say about things.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thats a really good list Ugra! I don't remember reading any posts from the science guys, but considering the rest of your choices, They must know their stuff.

[Kh0rn]

IraqiWalker and Bishop both get my vote. They as far as I see want too see the game become the mechwarrior game we wanted and waited for a long time. I feel the game is safe in there hands. I would love too see a more approach too simulation , immersion and a closer take too Battle tech. But one I would hands down vote for is a guy called IPOX his understand of the battle tech universe is amazing and had some really super ideas.

[Rebas Kradd]

Chronojam, on 17 September 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

This should be everybody's take-away. If the council can do no more than simply point Russ et. al. to the most important hot-button issues, the relevant threads, and player proposals about those topics (if any), then it will still be filling a much-needed gap.

To rephrase something I posted offsite: Russ has been posting here a lot lately, which is great to see, but we can't expect that kind of involvement 24/7 -- this is why dedicated community management roles are supposed to exist. I get the feeling that past CM (and moderation in general) may have served to sugarcoat things, and been more interested in burying issues than letting concerns actually bubble up to those with the ability to do something about it.

I like that. The council would be serving largely to put PGI's finger on the pulse of the community. That's something that they've struggled with, partially because a comprehensive overview of the whole thing takes a lot of reading and research, and I'd rather PGI be coding than doing that.

[DEN_Ninja]

Rebas Kradd, on 17 September 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

I like that. The council would be serving largely to put PGI's finger on the pulse of the community. That's something that they've struggled with, partially because a comprehensive overview of the whole thing takes a lot of reading and research, and I'd rather PGI be coding than doing that.

Jon was working till the dead of night yesterday...I really am surprised they have any time at all for us. If we settled this earlier Russ wouldn't have to call a teamspeak chat up.

But no...some folks are against a council to gather ideas that we can present to Russ.

[Livewyr]

Bhael Fire, on 17 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

That's a bit dramatic, don't you think?

At most, there's about three or four good ideas at any given time that surface to top here in the forums. The good ideas naturally gain traction on their own, without the need for an elected body to censor these ideas. These are the ideas we put to an additional vote via the game client so that the entire player base can vote (not just the forum members).

Ultimately it's up to the professionals at PGI to weed through the minutiae and logistics of the best ideas that get elected from the final vote.

3-4 good ideas: (But how many total ideas are out there? Obviously not 12,000, but far more than 3-4.)

How many people do you think PGI has on "sifting through the forums" for specific topics? I do not know, but I do know it could be increased by...several players... in order to help consolidate all the masses of ideas..into those 3-4 for that one topic.

The players who wish to do this have the time, and the passion to execute it.

Edited by Livewyr, 17 September 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[KraftySOT]

To be fair, the previous attempt at a player council got alot of people banned and resulted in #savemwo...

Its weird but uh, I see alot of those people back in the forum. Something tells me, and I pray this is the case, that many people at PGI agreed with that crowd and werent allowed to make concessions because of their publisher who handled all the "media" of which the forums was considered a part of, and the way they handled it was to get rid of the voices instead of appealing to them or conceding to them.

At the very minimum I think the PGI spurring the player council stuff and putting it in our hands and then unbanning all the #savemwo guys...pretty much means theyre going to make changes they requested and this is all a dog and pony so if we hate those changes, those guys get blamed.

At the best....this is an honest attempt to see if the TT and forum warriors idea of what this game should be, is really everyones idea of what this game should be.

While the forums are probably only 10% of the player base, and in game voting would reach a higher number of people...there is a diffussion of ability to vote in the best interests of the game and IP, when you add in a bunch of people who dont even care enough to make a forum post on the subject.

I believe when PGI says "loyal customers" they mean two things. The people who spent out the ass...and the people who take the immense amount of time it takes to write walls of text articles that detail in extreme visualization, issues with this game.

Also I applaud all the people, who I dont agree with entirely, who are leading this charge and have most of the votes.

I know it takes time and effort to write up these long complex articles on heat, ecm, etc, and approaching this scientifically and with great love for the IP...especially when almost all the negative feedback they get is from people who just say "that sucks, tl;dr" and offer no other solution, especially not one thought out quantitatively.