221 replies to this topic

[LCCX]

Dracol, on 15 September 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Currently there is a small window between 180 and 240 where an ecm mech can be targeted. Would increasing the size of this detection zone help alleviate some of the grief ecm causes?

That is a part of the issue(s).

[LCCX]

Yiphyin, on 15 September 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

You might also want to have follow-up questions if they want to do the radio button idea LCCX mentioned above detailing some of the potential trade-offs.

Something like:

If there was an option to extend ECM coverage over teammates with diminishing effectiveness, would you like this idea?

Examples (numbers made up for filler here):
Personal ECM: Only affects you, lockable within 200m range but unlockable outside of that (like current ECM)
Small bubble: Anyone is lockable but hostiles locking teammates within 250m range take 2x longer than normal
Large bubble: Anyone is lockable but hostiles locking teammates within 500m range take 50% longer than normal

I'm sure we will have a follow-up survey with potential solution(s)/pieces/changes (which, by their nature, must be much more specific). This is just to gauge the pain points ECM incurs.

[Yiphyin]

Fair enough, LCCX.

[Slepnir]

I am 99.99% in agreement with everthing in your post except ssrms. ECM never had the ability to prevent lock, and steaks never dumbfire thats why they weigh more fore the tracking system. since your properly going with LOS locks for LRMS you need to be consistent. streaks are always short range with direct fire.

BAP or not they always lock to fire, and they are the best counter for hard to hit lights with the current HSR

IceSerpent, on 12 September 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Agreed. How about this general idea (crossing into "solutions" territory):

LRMS:

- can only be fired indirectly at targets affected by TAG or NARC and not covered by ECM
- will definitely need to have speed increased as they turn into mostly a direct fire weapon
- will possibly need to have damage and missile spread adjusted in order to re-balance them
- direct fire lock is not prevented by ECM, just lock time increased (see below)

SSRMS:

- are turned into dumb-fire weapon (same spread as regular SRMs) when affected by ECM

ECM:

- decreases detection range, but not as drastically as it does now. Let's say, by 250m
- still provides "bubble" for nearby teammates, as it does now
- nullifies effects of TAG
- nullifies effects of NARC
- nullifies effects of Artemis
- still counters enemy ECM when in counter mode, as it does now
- does not prevent LRM locks
- turns SSRMs into dumb-fire missiles, same spread as SRMs
- increases LRM lock-on time by a certain amount, let's say by 25%

BAP:

- increases detection range by the same amount as decreased by ECM (i.e. 250m)
- decreases LRM lock-on time by the same amount as increased by ECM (i.e. 25%)

TAG:

- allows LRMs to be fired indirectly at painted target
- is nullified by ECM

NARC:

- allows LRMs to be fired indirectly at target it is attached to
- is nullified by ECM
- needs to have its duration decreased

PPC:

- doesn't affect any electronics

Edit: forgot about Artemis FCS

[The Wakelord]

Quote

The problem with this train of thought is, if LRMs have a caveat "you must bring backup weapons" where other weapons do not, they are automatically unfit. (Especially since that status varies wildly from match to match.)

That’s incorrect; It is a case of you should bring back-up weapons. You should also do that if you are using: SSRM, SRM, SL, PPC. You should be bringing back-up weapons for the LRM regardless of ECM anyway due to the travel time & minimum range. Trying to claim ECM has an significant effect is just misleading and damages the integrity of this whole "player council" debacle.

Looking at Sarna, bringing back-up weapons makes sense in lore & in MWO. I know when I make an ammo dependant mech I try whereever possible to give it a 2nd weapon; laser ideally or MG or something to do once the limb is blown off or the ammo runs dry. Clan mechs in particular seem to be vulnerable to their weapons exploding before the limb.


Anyway, back to the main point:
I feel ECM plays a niche role in mid-level (?) PUG games; ie; the games I play in. I’m writing this from work, so the numbers may be slightly off.

To me (a non-elite, competitive player) ECMs in their current role feel acceptably balanced. My logic for this is:
1. They are limited to 6 chassis (soon 7 when wave 2 hits), out of +100 chassis
2. They do not negate the other chassis of their type (eg: Raven 4X and Raven 3L are both acceptable)
3. With the exception of the Atlas, they are limited to low-tonne mechs. This makes the 1.5 weight significant & gives further incentive to play light mechs (as opposed to heavily armed & heavily armoured mechs)
4. There are a range of countermeasures. Some people feel these are not sufficient, but this seems down to personal preference
5. They encourage alternative playstyles, namely: teamwork OR sniping work. Both are acceptable tactics (again, some players confuse personal preference with balance)
6. Once the ECM has been spotted, it means the player must make a choice & tactics on whether to focus on the supportive ECM mech or the heavy hitting companions.
7. They encourage less LRM-boating, which is one of the most complained about topics (with ECM coming in 2nd). They encourage more variety in builds for people to take a back-up weapon, and the only time they can negate an enemy mech is if they are using a pure-missile omnipod clan with no CAP, or a Cat-A1 with no BAP.

Where I feel the ECM becomes unbalanced is when it is placed in a heavier mech. Ie: The Atlas-DDC. In this case the Atlas can freely & casually add 1.5 tonnes, and its slow default speed makes it a good teamwork mech. The high defences of the Atlas make it very tanky, and its heavy return fire discourages picking on the DDC. The only drawback in the case of the DDC is now its hardpoint options.

When the ECM is placed on a light mech, it means the player has no to choose to either play as a sniper (generally alone); this means it is vulnerable once spotted; or not make the most of its speed and play with a pack at a slow speed. The generally low armour of a light mech means if enemies do focus on the ECM, it goes down.

Quote

I frequently play as a kitfox with an ECM arm. My most common single lost structure is my ECM arm. Players are taking the time to specifically aim for it and take that out.

That’s awesome. It means they make the choice of attacking my arm so I cannot support my team, and once they’ve done that, they usually then move back to aiming at the heavies/assaults. The enemy is making intelligent moves and priotitising things. They are spotting dangers and responding to it. I have the excitement of trying to protect my arm while still returning fire etc

[Kmieciu]

Unikron, on 14 September 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Just went from 100 to dead, on my DDC, against a single LRM Golden Boy with a TAG, on Alpine Peaks

Nerf ECM? You kidding right?


People will simply quit playing or start to create same number of threads like you do, yelling at PGI to nerf LRM.
I think i will go with the 1st option if that happens, because map design in regards to LRM encounters,is annoying at best.

Rock, paper, scissors. If it was River City, he would be unable to hit you at all.



ECM costs 400,000. It is so freaking cheap. It is the same price as 10 UAVs. So it payes of after only 10 matches :-)

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 September 2014 - 05:04 AM.

[Bigbacon]

leave narc duration as it is for now.

1. I think step one should be just make narc and tag a hard counter. No number of ECMs can shade you from it.

2. if tagged or narc'ed you are visible until that tag stops hitting you or the narc runs out OR if you are an ECM carrying mech, you can switch to counter and counter it, assuming someone tells you that you are tagged or narced. This works well because you either take the hits yourself to shield your team or you shield yourself and let your team be visible.

3. if ECM is under UAV, you get normal lock on times. (think this already happens)

4. PPC shots take out ECM for a longer duration.

(optional) 5. Move the DDC ECM hardpoint to an arm.

the ECM debate is mainly only about LRMs....

I don't see a problem with ECM other wise. Game has lots of counters and players need to play differently.

Another helpful thing would be to up the rewards given for tag,narc,ecm assisting. Get more people to play with support options and not just as much pew pew as they can pt on the mech.

maybe make a narc range weapon module so IS narc can get out further.

as other have stated, ECM is easy to deal with except maybe on the DDC except players don't want to think, they just want to pew pew. Look at the kit fox, you see one, you target the arm or just flat out kill it. ECM gone. Players need to think differently, we don't need to kill or change ECM itself.

with changing the way some of the counters work and getting people to lay differently, it cancels out. I do this all the time if I am in something with Narc or tag, find the ECM, light it up and get people to kill. if a UAV is up, target ECM mechs, take them out.

It shouldn't be easy, which is what I think people want it to be. Still don't see the problem with how ECM currently works. Some tweak to the counters can solve a lot of it.

Edited by Bigbacon, 16 September 2014 - 05:11 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Garandos, on 15 September 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

And yes, it does weight as much as ML and SL combined, but no ECM mech would miss the weight.

Clan ECM weighs 1 tonne and takes 1 slot...

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 September 2014 - 05:43 AM.

[Dolph Hoskins]

There are just simply too many suggestions for ECM. I hope if any player council or whatever title they want to go by hopes to get this topic out there for a vote they can compile the most complete proposals into something comprehensive.

Personally I don't think ECM can be changed without reworking how the entire radar system works. Mainly there would need to be pilot controlled passive radars. I for one will only vote on options that allow players some way of being able to travel under the radar. There is no way this game would benefit from removing such a tactical element.

[Lemming211]

Days late and dollars short, I'm going to add my $0.02. I'll probably reiterate some things that have already been said.
I believe ECM is only compounding a deeper problem with targeting mechanics.

Here are my suggestions:
1. Targeting mechanics:
1.1 Line of Sight (LOS) targeting should be implemented. If I can see you, I should be able to target you/spot for others. This would be in the forward arc only, and not limited by distance.
1.2 Outside of LOS, mechs should be targetable in "sensor range". Sensor range is 360*, and a set distance, but limited by terrain (or it's own line of sight).
1.3 LRMs should have a much more direct flight path. Maybe not 100% linear, but leave the ballistic arcs to Arrow IV. (and add Arrow IV)
1.4 Heat mode should include heat plumes from mechs. Works like smoke, but only visible in heat mode. Would be more evident when running hot. Not a targetable criteria, but might make hiding more tricky.
1.5 Low-light mode should be blinded (or auto-dark like a welding helmet) when firing lasers. (We'll say autocannons have flash hiders, and missile plumes are obscured by smoke). This should make seeing at night more difficult.
2. ECM should have the following effects:
2.1 Break Outside-LOS targeting, immediately
2.2 Delay LRM/SSRM lock-on
3. The following would counter ECM:
3.1 ECM in counter mode doesn't make sense, that's what BAP is for. Remove ECM counter-mode. BAP would also eliminate the "sensor range" line-of-sight, providing a true 360* sensor arc.
3.2 PPC hits work well for temporarily disabling ECM. Keep this, maybe tweak how it is reported to the mech with ECM (light/indicator shows the overload, bitching betty)
3.2 NARC works like a PPC hit, should last twice as long and work outside "sensor range." This would NOT be reported like suggested with the PPC hit. NARC should provide an additional spotting bonus (on top of the current spotting bonus).
3.3 TAG wouldn't have an effect if LOS targeting is already there, but it would still provide those bonuses to missiles. TAG should also provide and additional spotting bonus.

Debate/Ignore/whatever, I've said my piece.

[IceSerpent]

Slepnir, on 15 September 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

I am 99.99% in agreement with everthing in your post except ssrms. ECM never had the ability to prevent lock, and steaks never dumbfire thats why they weigh more fore the tracking system. since your properly going with LOS locks for LRMS you need to be consistent. streaks are always short range with direct fire.

BAP or not they always lock to fire, and they are the best counter for hard to hit lights with the current HSR

That's part of what Angel ECM does, so you're a bit off target here. That being said, I wouldn't mind streaks being unaffected or getting some sort of soft debuff when affected by ECM (i.e. lock-on time increase). My main goal is to make sure that they are not rendered completely ineffective under any circumstances.

[Dutch Bear]

How many... LRM boat here press R to target... messages do we need to see? So the LRMMers dont like ECM..... get line of sight and fire your missiles they stil work like direct fire weapons. Besides the Target Dep module has had a much bigger impact and is a zero ton upgrade.

ECM does not allow target lock, which is what an electronic counter measure should do.

You cannot lock onto an ECM equipped mech unless you are close or the ECM has been disabled. No problem!

Should ECM effects stack? That is something that might be relevent, but I don't think swarms of ECM mechs (prior Kitfox apocalypse not included) are a problem and is something that only PGI will have the relevent data needed to make this determination.

The missing red square can't be the cause of so much consternation.

Just some thoughts...

Edited by Dutch Bear, 16 September 2014 - 08:02 AM.

[Mothykins]

I thought this topic was for identifying issues with it, not discussing potential solutions.

[Bigbacon]

Cavale, on 16 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

I thought this topic was for identifying issues with it, not discussing potential solutions.

the solutions solve the problem without having to change the way ECM currently works. So many little things could get tweaked that would leave ECM as it is yet allow more counter options.

With the wayECM is right now...someone still wins and ECM is usually not the reason why.

Edited by Bigbacon, 16 September 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

ECM receives numerous advantages that spill over to teammates without much cost, only 1.5 tons, and little to no effort. The biggest issues with of which do not currently have any counters:

• confusion placed upon new players
  
  • Without using money, new players do not have access to ECM counters.
• disruption of coordination on pubs
  
  • One stray light can pull most of a team from the front line, while the rest of the stealthed enemy team can overwhelm your front line. This requires chat or TS in order to effectively counter.
• exacerbating issue of no friendly IFF bug
  
  • The bug removes friendly IFF. However ECM hides enemy IFF until you close in or counter it. This sometimes result in friendly fire especially in pug games.
• non-parity of detection (stealth could and should be allowed for several more chassis)
  
  • ECM mech can spot you through IFF detection from 800m+ with BAP and sensor module. However the furthest you can get is 750m with TAG that must stay on target.

[Mothykins]

Ok, so. Let's add to this.

BAP is a counter of ECM, yes? At 1.5 Tons it's the same weight. Except it's at a total disparity with ECM. As stated, it's Redundant with Sensor range and Target Info Gathering modules. On top of that, with the need to get into close range, and the fact that multi ECM will counter my BAP... I don't even bother running it anymore. It was 1.5 tons of wasted space. For what it gave me, I was better off putting two modules and a bigger gun on my 'mech, because it was either barely helpful or completely worthless.

If BAP is going to remain a counter to ECM, at the same weight, it should have the same "Hardpoint" System ECM has and better buffs. This isn't cutting it at all.

[Lynx7725]

Cavale, on 16 September 2014 - 09:50 PM, said:

BAP is a counter of ECM, yes? At 1.5 Tons it's the same weight. Except it's at a total disparity with ECM. As stated, it's Redundant with Sensor range and Target Info Gathering modules.

You got it backwards. BAP makes Sensor Range and Target Info modules redundant.

[Mothykins]

Lynx7725, on 16 September 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

You got it backwards. BAP makes Sensor Range and Target Info modules redundant.

No. BAP has become the redundant system because, unlike those two modules, BAP takes up actual mech slots and tonnage. Yes, BAP DOES stack with them, but why would you bother when for Zero Tons and Zero Crits you could just jam those two on your 'mech and call it a day?

[Lynx7725]

Cavale, on 16 September 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

No. BAP has become the redundant system because, unlike those two modules, BAP takes up actual mech slots and tonnage. Yes, BAP DOES stack with them, but why would you bother when for Zero Tons and Zero Crits you could just jam those two on your 'mech and call it a day?

The simple question is, in a system which requires you to put together mech builds with limited resources, which is a more scare resource? Tonnage, critical space, or module slots?

I use BAP to free up my module slots so that I can take other modules that I cannot duplicate the effect with equipment.

[Mothykins]

Lynx7725, on 16 September 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

The simple question is, in a system which requires you to put together mech builds with limited resources, which is a more scare resource? Tonnage, critical space, or module slots?

I use BAP to free up my module slots so that I can take other modules that I cannot duplicate the effect with equipment.

Fair enough, I suppose.