55 replies to this topic

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Why a council? That's boring.

Make it a trial by e-combat.

If they've done enough to be banned let them choose a mech & face PGI's defender 1 vs 1.

Best out of five matches.

Fate will decide if they're worthy to remain in the community.

[TopDawg]

On of the problems, as being continually alluded to, is that MWO is a complicated system full of smaller, complicated systems. It's nearly impossible to change one without directly or indirectly affecting another; this is an inherent feature of any interconnected system. I propose gathering two sets of solutions, an overarching coherent one, and one that is limited to the (very limited) scope Russ set out.

Other concerns: I don't disagree that there is more wrong than just ECM, and that ECM is a bit of an arbitrary place to start this quest of improving the game (and that it doesn't have its problems as stated above). But you do have to start somewhere, and hopefully progress in one area will spur progress in another; perhaps even going back and refining previously settled upon solutions.

As for a direct democracy approach, the simple truth is that often times people don't know what's best for the game; both players and developers alike. They simply know where their grievances are and are primarily interested in addressing them. It is then the job of the designer (or council, in this case) to parse that and address them (either by coming up with an idea themselves or by collecting data from the community - perhaps after presenting the problem to the community in a way that welcomes solutions to it).

But I've already outlined as much here, and encourage others to weigh in and even disagree with me if you have a better idea/system!

[Khobai]

Quote

Pure "democracy" has virtually never worked, or been efficient, because everyone wants their voice heard, and it all becomes white noise.

Pure democracy works perfectly fine. PGI sets up a poll, players vote on it, and PGIs use that information to reach a decision. Its impossible to make everyone happy but a poll helps PGI decide what players want, what issues are worth changing, and what issues arnt worth fighting the player base over.

Electing a council is some archaic medieval **** and we really dont need it. Representation by proxy is a holdover from an age when we didnt have computers or a high literary/education level. Pure democratic referendum is the government of the future.

[Bishop Steiner]

At the end of the day, I trust Russ, to do exactly what he feels is best for his company. And I can't really fault him for that. He is the one who has 100 or more IRL employees looking to him for their paycheck, whereas we are talking about playing a video game.

I do feel, that disconnect in priorities and views, get glossed over, far too often by us in the Gaming Community, that we are talking about peoples livelihood here, not just our instant gratification entertainment. That disconnect is one reason I will not Support Certain Individuals Currently Without a Voice, because even when their points on making a better game, may be valid, their tactics and methods show a consistent disregard for the very realities of running a company and business, and just as important, for US, their fellow Community Members, who have long been railroaded, bullied, belittled by their agendas.

End of the day, we are playing PGI's game. For many reason, be they internal, financial reality, hardware software limitations, a Publisher, or simply a longterm view where they realize that a previous idea was not the best way to approach things.... we are not privy to all that, and realistically, because of a few indie Studios, we are spoiled into thinking we are entitled to know everything. Yet realistically few come close to that sort of access. So while they certainly have screwed the pooch in the past several times about how they communicated (or more often, did not), I would say we also have had some pretty unrealistic expectations about it as a community, expectations not helped by the passion and loyalty to the IP for many of us.

So, I can't say what was IGPs fault, or PGIs, in the past. We have now, where there is no Cloak of a Publisher to hide behind, to see what they do. And we have the option, as customers, to vote with our wallet, whether we like or dislike the game they present.

What we don't have, honestly is any "right" to determine how the game itself is made. We are not the ones with jobs at stake over it, we are not the ones filing reams of paperwork daily, making decisions now that affect the IRL of dozens to hundreds of people for months to come if not longer. We are merely the consumer. If we like the product , we spend money on it. If we don't, we do not. And people need to grasp it is a perpetual, evolving f2p game. Nothing is static. Things change, and for the Developers perception of the greater good of the game, our favorite toy might get nerfed. (Chances are, it was our favorite toy for a reason, lol).

So all I want to do is see if we as a Community can get OUR crap together any better than we accuse PGI of doing, and get a working proposal the whole community can back, present it to Russ, then see what happens. We got one chance, as a community to show we CAN act in a way beyond our own self interests, and get this right.

Because right now, if there is an ulterior motive for Russ tossing us the ball, listening to the bickering, and the forum anarchists trying to bring their buddies out of exile, Russ, Paul and Bryan have to be laughing up their sleeve at us.

(excerpt from a conversation with another forum user)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 September 2014 - 09:14 AM.

[Khobai]

And people also completely misinterpreted what Russ said... Russ didnt tell us to form a council. He just used that as one possible example of how we might reach a consensus. Russ doesn't really care how the community reaches a consensus as long as the majority of players have their views represented.

A few "elitest" players saw that as an opportunity to push their own agendas by forming a council. The fact is we never even had a poll to determine how the player base would reach a consensus, whether through a council, a more democratic process, or some other means. And that should've been the very first thing we voted on.

I think a council is a stupid idea thats never worked in other games. Theres nothing wrong with just having polls to help PGI determine the players' stances on certain issues. Other games do it and it works fine.

Edited by Khobai, 13 September 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[Ultimax]

Garandos, on 13 September 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

Well, what i would be curious about,

what would be the oppinion of you guys on this?

Do you think, that, in case, a banned player would end up in the council/Task force,
he should get a second chance?

Do you think those people should be out of the question for such a "job" within the comunity?

I dont know the stance of Russ and PGI on this, but i think, if we got the chance, to select a few, so the communication can be funneled throught them and thus streamlined, we should have the option to select people which are not in the "best standing" with PGI.

Why do i think this?

Because people did not get banned because of Player choice.

But i guess, having a broader collection of oppinions, would be really helpfull, as this is of concern for all of us!

So, oppinions?

(i try to get a simple poll in this, dont know if it works out)

The goal of the council is to communicate what the majority of what players want directly to the devs, in effect help maintain a relationship between playerbase and devs.

If players were banned because they were unable to communicate properly to maintain their own relationship to the devs, then I don't think that makes them suitable to speak for others.

[TopDawg]

Khobai, on 13 September 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Pure democracy works perfectly fine. PGI sets up a poll, players vote on it, and PGIs use that information to reach a decision. Its impossible to make everyone happy but a poll helps PGI decide what players want, what issues are worth changing, and what issues arnt worth fighting the player base over.

Electing a council is some archaic medieval **** and we really dont need it. Representation by proxy is a holdover from an age when we didnt have computers or a high literary/education level. Pure democratic referendum is the government of the future.

Except you're ignoring the very real point that often times people just don't know what's best for a game. That applies to players. That applies to developers. Without getting too political (you did bring it up) that tends to apply to voters as well, because they aren't well educated on the issues (and that can be for a number of reasons, not least of all information overload and the sheer volume of it all - but I digress).

If everyone knew how to make a good game and balance it properly every game would be a runaway, smash hit, money-hand-over-fist success. That just isn't the case.

To address your new post, as far as I'm aware polls are no longer options for players to do, and require a moderator of some sort to initiate or are only able to be done in specific forums (at least according to what Homeless Bill wrote in his thread, but Agent O Fortune said that polls can only be issued in Feature Suggestion Forums).

Edit: Removed double quote, not quite sure how that ended up there.

Edited by TopDawg, 13 September 2014 - 09:25 AM.

[PappySmurf]

TopDawg (Except you're ignoring the very real point that often times people just don't know what's best for a game)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And this is exactly true to a point most new players or players come to this forum and find so much misinformation about topics its amazing anything can be learned or understood about even a minor topic as ECM or AMS.

But the mods don't take the time to gather up the most intelligent topics and posts about improving the game analyze it and put a poll up (yes or NO) on what they have gathered for the community to vote on? Or even to show what is the proper information about the game mechanics or game play.

Edited by PappySmurf, 13 September 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[EvilCow]

I hope this council will collect ideas, formalize like 3 proposals and poll the community about the solutions, then submit the recommendations to the devs.

I would make increasingly ambitious proposals, from fixing just the ECM to a complete revamp of the sensors system and affected weapons (LRMs, SSRMs).

Edited by EvilCow, 13 September 2014 - 09:46 AM.

[Khan Warlock Kell]

I think its fairly simple people don't tend to get banned for no reason. Something brings them to attention of the mods who then decide a ban is needed. I have in the past been a very dissenting voice. Even in some of the pod casts that were done I was less than complimentary about PGI. But I never stooped to name calling or just insults I tried fairly hard to be respectful and tactful even if I was brutally honest about some of the issues.

my personal view is if you have been banned I do not wish you to speak on my behalf.

Edited by Khan Warlock Kell, 13 September 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[TB Freelancer]

Bishop Steiner, on 13 September 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Because right now, if there is an ulterior motive for Russ tossing us the ball, listening to the bickering, and the forum anarchists trying to bring their buddies out of exile, Russ, Paul and Bryan have to be laughing up their sleeve at us.

I think he made the offer with no real expectation of the community ever getting its act together. But think he had just a sliver of hope that it just might and if it happened he'd be overjoyed to honor the offer.

Honestly I think he was trying to make a point about how impossible it really is to satisfy everyone.

Edited by TB Freelancer, 13 September 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Polls are easily manipulated by a large enough group with an agenda, and counsels can be manipulated with volume.

If PGI were really interested in finding out player opinions they could include it in game client.
Eligible* players are allowed to vote on current hot-topics. They don't get to make the decisions, but it will let PGI know the feelings of the community.

Eligible players would need to current players, so maybe you only get to vote on the current hot-topic after you complete X hours of game play that week/month.
Eligible players could also be targeted by skill (elo) bracket. If a change is primarily going to affect high elo players, then they get to vote. same with lower brackets. We all know that certain game features impact various skill levels differently.

As for the idea that we have a counsel, if we/PGI go that route, it is pretty obvious that only members in good standing can participate, as all counsel matters should be visible and transparent on these forums.

[PANZERKAT]

Considering how casually they waved the ban stick around, probably.

[Bishop Steiner]

KOMMISSAR KITTY, on 13 September 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Considering how casually they waved the ban stick around, probably.

if that were really true, you, and even me, would not be here, commenting.

[Artgathan]

Khobai, on 13 September 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Pure democracy works perfectly fine. PGI sets up a poll, players vote on it, and PGIs use that information to reach a decision. Its impossible to make everyone happy but a poll helps PGI decide what players want, what issues are worth changing, and what issues arnt worth fighting the player base over.

Electing a council is some archaic medieval **** and we really dont need it. Representation by proxy is a holdover from an age when we didnt have computers or a high literary/education level. Pure democratic referendum is the government of the future.

TopDawg, on 13 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Except you're ignoring the very real point that often times people just don't know what's best for a game. That applies to players. That applies to developers. Without getting too political (you did bring it up) that tends to apply to voters as well, because they aren't well educated on the issues (and that can be for a number of reasons, not least of all information overload and the sheer volume of it all - but I digress).

If everyone knew how to make a good game and balance it properly every game would be a runaway, smash hit, money-hand-over-fist success. That just isn't the case.

To address your new post, as far as I'm aware polls are no longer options for players to do, and require a moderator of some sort to initiate or are only able to be done in specific forums (at least according to what Homeless Bill wrote in his thread, but Agent O Fortune said that polls can only be issued in Feature Suggestion Forums).

Edit: Removed double quote, not quite sure how that ended up there.

Gotta go with TopDawg on this. Pure Democracy is problematic when the population in question is not informed enough about the topic to make "good" decisions. For instance, given the chance I believe many people would vote "yes" if asked to get rid of unemployment (meaning "reduce unemployment rate to 0 - every gets a job"). Ultimately this would trash the economy.

Also, looking at the poll you started in Feature Suggestions, it's not immediately obvious to me that a vote would accomplish anything. At the time of this post there is no option (except for "ECM should increase missile lock on time for all nearby enemy mechs") in any category that has a clear majority of votes for it.

For the record, I'm strongly opposed to any sort of "council" (and for pete's sake people - it's "council" not "counsel" - "counsel" is the actual advice being given, "council" is the group of people). I also don't think the root problem is ECM. Seeing as people's number one complaint is how ECM interacts with LRMs, changing LRM mechanics to allow them to lock onto mechs that don't have the red box (within their LOS) would be a better option than completely eliminating the only stealth mechanic in the whole game.

[TopDawg]

PappySmurf, on 13 September 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

TopDawg (Except you're ignoring the very real point that often times people just don't know what's best for a game)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And this is exactly true to a point most new players or players come to this forum and find so much misinformation about topics its amazing anything can be learned or understood about even a minor topic as ECM or AMS.

But the mods don't take the time to gather up the most intelligent topics and posts about improving the game analyze it and put a poll up (yes or NO) on what they have gathered for the community to vote on? Or even to show what is the proper information about the game mechanics or game play.

And that's also true. I think Livewyr did a fairly good job in starting the discussion on that, first outlining (or attempting to) how it works so that everyone can then give accurate feedback based on an actual understanding of it. Also probably something pretty important to know/convey in this whole process.