72 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

I am interested to know why you think that way.

(This is not a place to openly disagree with someone.. I am hoping to just gather why they think that way, in order to either change my mind, or mold my argument to change theirs.)

I will not be voicing disagreements with arguments, that is not the purpose of this. Please refrain from doing so, as well.

[Viges]

Because of bap, tag, redar deprivation, lots of missile boats, only light mechs can mount them (with 1 exception)?
Tbh I really dont care that much about ecm, so much more problems this game has. I'm pretty sure that 80+% players would like to ghost heat change. But ecm? Not that big problem, especially after lrms buffs and jj, fall damage and ppcs nerfs.

[Chive On]

I use ECM, and of course fight mechs equipped with ECM. I like the current dynamic, it's challenging. IMHO people want an easy button, no offense. I don't like posting on these boards because of the hatred and vile that will undoubtedly follow; because I don't agree with the group consensus. Also, my return button won't let me make a new paragraph LOL so I will just end with this. If you took out ECM today, would the game be better?

[IceSerpent]

Livewyr, on 13 September 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

I am interested to know why you think that way.

(This is not a place to openly disagree with someone.. I am hoping to just gather why they think that way, in order to either change my mind, or mold my argument to change theirs.)

I will not be voicing disagreements with arguments, that is not the purpose of this. Please refrain from doing so, as well.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that folks believe that ECM is fine, because they view it as a completely stand-alone piece (from a perspective of "what would happen if ECM is changed, while everything else remains the same") instead of looking at ECM/BAP/LRMS/SSRMS/Artemis/TAG/NARC as one big system consisting of multiple components that affect each other.

[xe N on]

With the current missile system, where LRM indirect fire by a spotter or UAV is a no brainer ECM in the current state is fine.

However, if there would be a parallel reduction in effectivity of indirect LRM fire, I could agree to adapt ECM.

While premades on high Elo would not be much affected, nerfing ECM without adaption of LRMs would lead to an massive LRM usage in PUG games to a point, where it would be no fun to bring any other weapon system.

Edited by xe N on, 13 September 2014 - 11:21 AM.

[hybrid black]

99% of the time it has no effect on better units and the 1% of the time were board and want to LRM we bring the counters and ECM then does nothing.... its over powered to the low ELO and the ones that want to LRM as a main thing and not support like LRM's are made for

[Dracol]

Here's what I like about ECM:

- Allows only mechs that equip it and those who stick with said mech to not instantly appear on enemy radar when in LOS. This gives camo a small roll to play as well as reward those who keep an eye out instead of relying on the doritos. It also gives a roll to a select few mechs that no other mech can fill. If this ability was equip able by all mechs, it would lose the inherent team work aspect as well as remove a niche for select mechs to fill.

- Allows indirect fire LRMs to be in the game without them doing very little damage or being regulated to direct fire weapons like the rest of the weapon selection.

- ECM disrupt provides a non-weapon based "attack" that disrupts enemies ability to cordinate

Personally, ECM's ability to disrupt and its ability to nullify radar sig should be separated into exclusive functions, if not separate equipment.

Edited by Dracol, 13 September 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Davers]

Every problem with ECM is actually a complaint about LRMs and streak SRMs.

[Mordin Ashe]

If I ignore the fact that ECM is on/off switch for 1/4 of the game (information warfare) and turns off many weapon systems, I may say that ECM is an interesting feature. Sadly I can't ignore that, so I won't stand up for it. But I get why some people don't see any issues with it, even though I don't agree myself.

If they want to do an easy balance to it, they need to make countering it childishly easy instead of all those pseudocounters we have right now that sometimes work, mostly don't and are incredibly difficult to use. Any more serious rebalancing will have to affect that information warfare switch.

[Ultimax]

I don't think it's totally fine, I think it's necessary in the current environment.

I also wonder why players think "information warfare" means solely "information gathering tools".


A part of "information warfare" is denial of information.

ECM is the only piece of equipment in the game that pretty much allows you to deny any information to the enemy.

[Lynx7725]

Personally I think ECM can do with some tweaks. The reason why I don't really feel it's a big problem is that I always had to deal with it, so I found ways to work the problem.

And I run LRM boats a lot. Without TAG or NARC. In solo queue. Admittedly, with BAP.

It's not to say I don't run into games where ECM is a decider.. but usually, that's a decider because someone on that team gathered up enough mechs under that umbrella and came deathballing over into a bunch of us who had no support or scouting. To that I usually say: "Good play", and get on with the next match.

And yes, I do run into games where the opposite side had so much ECM that I couldn't do jack the whole game. Frankly though, not that often. Usually because the light ECMs tend to be sniper Rambos running off and leaving the team on its own. When they get it right and deny me though, it's frustrating, but I have to grudgingly give credit where it's due, that their ECM mechs understood their team roles properly.

[KingCobra]

ECM is fine there are 100 more important things to deal with in MWO to make it survive as a viable game like MAPS or even MORE GAME MODES or bug fixes.I just cant believe the players that are pushing for a ECM fix instead of the important things needed in this game.And PGI is like sure fellas let us delay important content just so we can fix a ECM problem that is a minor irritation to a few groups and is relatively a mute point in SOLO mm game drops.

If I were PGI I would completely ignore all this ECM folly and continue to produce relevant content to pacify the players they still have before they leave the sinking ship.

[Targetloc]

The gist of what I'm reading so far is most players who think ECM is fine don't have a strong opinion on ECM itself, but have strong opinions on the imbalance of LRMs, or feel working on ECM takes away dev time from a larger problem they want to see fixed.

Sounds like it's still pretty reasonable to make 80% or more of players happy by making sure an ECM adjustment is part of a larger 'Information Warfare revamp' that makes LRMs don't reign supreme in the solo queue and adds more active options for info denial.

[FDJustin]

Guess I just don't really care. It's there. It's a thing. It's powerful... The counters are fairly hard to pull off, but they do exist. While powerful, ECM capable mechs are all given lower performance than their counterparts. Less positive quirks, weaker weapon loadouts, less module slots, that sort of thing. You give up more than just 1.5 tons to take it.

I'm just as open to see it changed as left alone as removed, in general. In a few weeks when people start settling on a few directions they want to take it, I'll pick out which idea plays out in my head as most fun and vote for it.

[p4r4g0n]

Because it feels a lot like flogging a dead horse and I suspect making any significant changes at this time will adversely impact current game development as it will :-

• require time / resources to re-conceptualise and re-design the ECM mechanic which are currently focused on CW;
  
• render a fair number of things obsolete / redundant; and
  
• require time / resources to build new stuff related to / around whatever is the new ECM mechanic as well as to address potential issues that will arise which is probably inevitable.

With the introduction of counters to ECM since was implemented, people have learned to adapt and overcome. It however creates a really ****** experience for new players I have to admit.

Edited by p4r4g0n, 13 September 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Kibble]

Keep in mind there are two or three types of ECM but seems like our ECM is combining the following two.

ECM:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM_Suite
An Electronic Countermeasure (or ECM) Suite covers the area around the unit on which it is employed, disrupting sensors and communications.

Key word: Unit

In other words only the mech it is equipped on. It's not a bubble.

Guardian ECM:
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.

So maybe it's just needs to renamed in the game. I would be fine with that. ECM does not shield people around it however guardian ECM does.

Just rename it to the correct one so no one can ***** anymore my god.

Edited by Kibble, 13 September 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Stormwolf]

All level 2 equipment outside of weapons are pretty wonky in their implementation, you can't fix ECM without altering the other components as well.

[SleekHusky]

I think ecm isn't as bad as it was before although there are two things I can think of to change it for the better.

1. Is to have the matchmaker make sure each team either has none or the same number on each side (maybe 2 light ecm vs 1 Atlas D-DC)

2. Make it so when you narc a non-ecm mech they still show up even if they go into an ecm cloud.

Other than that I don't have much of an issue with them at all.

[Sorbic]

I'll never get tired of laughing at folks dropping the empty "it only affects bads" line.

I do think ECM could stand some tweaking but it would need to be done in conjunction with tweaks to other systems and right now I'd consider it more of a back burner issue. Personally I'd like to see ECM continue to completely shield mechs you don't have LOS on and simply slow recognition of mechs you do. But, as I said, other things would need tweaks and there's more important stuff atm.

[Davegt27]

Because the game is the game

If you had bought the game at Best Buy took it home and installed it that would be it
You just played the game it would not matter what you thought or felt about the game

One time back in the day I contacted Microprose about the game TF1942 they denied they even made such a game
After I got off the phone and I was like what was I thinking

That’s like contacting GM saying your doing the Corvette wrong