52 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

Long range mech battles beyond optimal range tend to last a long time. When people start getting under 500-600m that's when the blastathon starts if you don't know how to torso twist and use cover.

Well people die at 1000m to LRMs too but that's a problem between the keyboard and the chair.

[Illegal Username]

There's a whole galaxy of options in between "Handholding until the player feels like an idiot" and "**** you newbie" and right now there are too many things pointing at the second category.
The game is grindy as all hell. The ui is garbage. Happen to run into a properly fit mech (or god forbid a Clanner) in your Trial mech? Welp!
Basically if you do not have someone to cover your ass to start with you are going to have a miserable time.

lockwoodx, on 15 September 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

He did think the game looked "like poo" in Dx9 on high settings tho, and he had left before remembering to get his impression of how it looked in Dx11 on very high after he switched to it.

This is particularly hilarious thinking how good the game looked in beta.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Elizander, on 15 September 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Long range mech battles beyond optimal range tend to last a long time. When people start getting under 500-600m that's when the blastathon starts if you don't know how to torso twist and use cover.

Well right there is a big issue, because the game advertises these big stompy mechs exchanging blows at close range. Also, as a new player I bet he wants/wanted to see how cool the other mechs looked which means you have to get close to them to appreciate the detail, unwittingly getting obliterated in the process. A description he used for the mechs was "mobile tanks", and found out the hard way they aren't very "tanky" at all.

[Xarian]

I met a guy a couple weeks ago who was playing MWO for the first time also using the BJ-1(C). We did 4-man lance drops. He was usually the last one alive on our lance, and ended up with 1-2 kills every match. We didn't have any 10-drops on us, but we had a few 6-drops, occasionally with competetive units. We won those about 50% of the time. So yeah, different player, different experience. MWO isn't for everyone, and you can't blame it all on the "new player" experience.

Some people say MWO on DX9 looks kinda poor relative to first-person shooters because of the lack of anti-aliasing. Please don't recommend moving to DX11, however; it looks a bit better because of MSAA or TXAA, but it also introduces severe rubberbanding even with perfect connections, and many users (like me) get a "flashing" effect due to the way that shaders are handled in conjunction with antialiasing in certain CryEngine implementations.

[Illegal Username]

Xarian, on 15 September 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

We did 4-man lance drops.

Sure sounds like an average newbie

[Xarian]

lockwoodx, on 15 September 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Well right there is a big issue, because the game advertises these big stompy mechs exchanging blows at close range. Also, as a new player I bet he wants/wanted to see how cool the other mechs looked which means you have to get close to them to appreciate the detail, unwittingly getting obliterated in the process. A description he used for the mechs was "mobile tanks", and found out the hard way they aren't very "tanky" at all.

Even real tanks aren't "tanky" against anti-tank weapons. Compare Hellfire Missiles to M16s.

The basic process in MWO is the same as other shooters - use cover, shoot your enemy, don't get shot back. If everyone could waltz into the open and be nigh-invulnerable then the game would be incredibly boring.

Illegal Username, on 15 September 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

Sure sounds like an average newbie

Uh, the guy wandered into our Teamspeak channel when we had 3 people and wanted to play with us. We said "sure, why not", and he warned us that the only mech he had was a Jenner, that he was terrible with.

[Redshift2k5]

Good luck with it, too bad there's no free premium time codes kicking around or else you could bring him into a private match for tutoring

[Heffey]

Illegal Username, on 15 September 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

This is particularly hilarious thinking how good the game looked in beta.

Yeah the game looked great in early 2012.

[Ultimax]

You shouldn't bring a brand new player into the group queue.

Teams actually play there, they use real team tactics. They call targets, and focus fire.

They have plan and they move on it.


Balance isn't off, and organized teams are working together. That's the entire point of teaming in a team game.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Ultimatum X, on 15 September 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

You shouldn't bring a brand new player into the group queue.

Teams actually play there, they use real team tactics. They call targets, and focus fire.

They have plan and they move on it.


Balance isn't off, and organized teams are working together. That's the entire point of teaming in a team game.

You aren't entirely wrong, but on the flip-side when showing a brand new player any game, especially a co-op one, the best thing you can you do is be right there with them in person so at the very least they can watch what you do and try to mimic it. The thing is due to how this game is marketed as being "big robot fights", and with his FPS experience, a new player is more inclined to go prove their merit in battle. The false impression PGI provides is that smaller engagements happen across sprawling maps, when in reality you're walking right into a firing squad of camped pros almost the very moment you fire up your engine. He had the most fun on Manifold, where the map he disliked the most was forest colony.

Redshift2k5, on 15 September 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

Good luck with it, too bad there's no free premium time codes kicking around or else you could bring him into a private match for tutoring

Yep that's why I always appreciate those who donate their premium time to run the Stock Mondays. It's one of the few genuine havens for pug players to learn game mechanics without units expecting something in return.

Edited by lockwoodx, 15 September 2014 - 08:47 AM.

[Hoax415]

Yes this is a harsh consequence of people who freaked the hell out if 2 or 3 man groups were allowed to be mixed in with solo players.

A system where lower elo 2 or 3 mans can be placed in solo queue might be nice but I'm not sure its worth having to listen to more 80 page mudhutwarrior threads.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Xarian, on 15 September 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

and many users (like me) get a "flashing" effect due to the way that shaders are handled in conjunction with antialiasing in certain CryEngine implementations.

See I always assumed that flashing was different light angles reflecting off the cockpit console monitors. The wonky logic behind that being, sunlight shouldn't shine through the back of your cockpit. LOL

[Ultimax]

lockwoodx, on 15 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

You aren't entirely wrong, but on the flip-side when showing a brand new player any game, especially a co-op one, the best thing you can you do is be right there with them in person so at the very least they can watch what you do and try to mimic it. The thing is due to how this game is marketed as being "big robot fights", and with his FPS experience, a new player is more inclined to go prove their merit in battle.

I appreciate the impetus to want to group with your friend, and take them with you into the group queue.

I've also thought a "mentor" mode could be a part of premium time benefits, where you can piggy back and watch a friend play to give them tips/help them.

Regardless, coming up against an 8 man is not an automatic "we lose". There are plenty of 8 and even 10 mans that are clearly very casual.

When I lose to an 8 or 10 man, I don't think the game is unbalanced.

I analyze what they did, and how they did it and try to incorporate that into my gameplay.

[RockmachinE]

Blakkstar, on 15 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

PGI treats you like Cave Johnson, handing you a rifle as you walk in the door and sending you off to fight an army of mantis men.

I actually prefer this. I am of the old school breed and I know how stupid this sounds to many people, but I like not being held by the hand every step of the way. I like being thrown into the fray, I like the complexity and depth and love having to figure it out.

I can't tell you how much MC I've spent in the first few months of the game figuring things out. XL engines are expensive, especially if you keep buying the wrong ones. I could have checked smurphys or any other source, but I did not want to. In fact I look at builds way more now after all the experience (since beta, but different account), then I did before.

My background is in social psychology, and while many people benefit from a nice slow start that explains all the elements of the game in a subtle way, I HATE having it pulled on me, particularly because I can identify it so well and because I've trained myself not to fall prey for these methods and techniques (even though in this case it's arguably beneficial).

That being said, MWO is not THAT complex. It's a pretty straight forward game with a steep-ish learning curve. Try X3... that's a complex game right there.

I honestly believe gamers are getting lazy, spoiled and "stupid", which is a symptom of much greater problems of modern society, but we'll leave that alone. Figuring a game out is a huge part of the fun. I don't want a simple game where I get flashy rewards for following an exact formula. "Click these buttons in the right order and you get a reward". I'm not a rat in a maze. I'm a dude trying his damnest to have fun with extremely limited resources. If I wanted brainless activity, I'd get a **** job flipping burgers or switches (and no offense to people who do) at least that way I'd make some money instead of paying some dumbass, because he made a crude electronic experiment to get money from people.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 15 September 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Ultimatum X, on 15 September 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

I appreciate the impetus to want to group with your friend, and take them with you into the group queue.

I've also thought a "mentor" mode could be a part of premium time benefits, where you can piggy back and watch a friend play to give them tips/help them.

Regardless, coming up against an 8 man is not an automatic "we lose". There are plenty of 8 and even 10 mans that are clearly very casual.

When I lose to an 8 or 10 man, I don't think the game is unbalanced.

I analyze what they did, and how they did it and try to incorporate that into my gameplay.

I'm not saying the group queue is an automatic loss, and I sure as hell am not giving up on a new player who actually shows genuine interest in the game. That's why with any luck he'll show up to Stock Monday tonight and there's plenty of fun to be had, along with some genuine learning experiences. Carl Avery is a natural teacher/leader and any of the newbies I threw a shout out to on my Steam list that decide to show up will benefit from his wisdom and patience.

[Ultimax]

lockwoodx, on 15 September 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

I'm not saying the group queue is an automatic loss

lockwoodx, on 15 September 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

That also really put him off and I had to explain to him about how balance is really off and organized teams suck the fun out of the game for smaller casual groups but I think PGI is working on that. (keeping fingers crossed)

Then why blame losses on organized teams who "suck the fun out of the game".



You can come to the forums and play the victim or you can own up to the fact that your team was defeated by a better team.

There are a number of large, welcoming Team Speak servers where you can bring even new players and play in larger groups in the queue.

Or you can blame others for "sucking the fun out" and feel victimized.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 September 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[kesuga7]

man if theres one game that doesn't like new players its natural selection 2

im still learnin with 300 hours lol

MWO is just trial and error , but repeated allot , like allot as you try new builds and sometimes its a case that another mech is just superior in everyway nomatter how skilledyou are
like the locust , raven>jenner > hunchback shadowhawk Etc

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Ultimatum X, on 15 September 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Then you need to improve your communication ability, and also learn not to blame losses on organized teams who "suck the fun out of the game".



You can come to the forums and play the victim or you can own up to the fact that your team was defeated by a better team.

There are a number of large, welcoming Team Speak servers where you can bring even new players and play in larger groups in the queue.

Or you can blame others for "sucking the fun out" and feel victimized.

Negative.

See... in the context of our conversation I was explaining to him how organized teams in MWO were like 2000hr+ L4D teams that know every little detail, exploit, glitch, set their stop watches to respawn timers, etc... which when you're trying to learn the game, or just have some casual fun... Those guys suck the fun out of a match/game.

My statement was quite accurate.

There's fun to be had on good teams, and good teams can rob players of fun. L4D2 and MWO are more similar than you think, because there is no happy medium... no middle ground. You're the bug or the windshield unless you're on an all friends game/private server.

kesuga7, on 15 September 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

man if theres one game that doesn't like new players its natural selection 2

im still learnin with 300 hours lol

MWO is just trial and error , but repeated allot , like allot as you try new builds and sometimes its a case that another mech is just superior in everyway nomatter how skilledyou are
like the locust , raven>jenner > hunchback shadowhawk Etc

I play a lot of NS:2 also and yes it's VERY unforgiving not only due to teamwork factors, but then you have the added elements of resource gathering which ultimately places a time limit upon every match. MWO is definitely more casual than that, even at competitive levels, but it's easier to dismiss bad NS:2 games because MWO has the unique pressure of feeling the need to make progress to afford what your opponent just owned you with and see if that works for you too, and not simply win or lose like your typical FPS with no bearing on stats, just your ability to preform at the given moment.

Edited by lockwoodx, 15 September 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Ultimax]

lockwoodx, on 15 September 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

See... in the context of our conversation I was explaining to him how organized teams in MWO were like 2000hr+ L4D teams that know every little detail, exploit, glitch, set their stop watches to respawn timers, etc... which when you're trying to learn the game, or just have some casual fun... Those guys suck the fun out of a match/game.

Or maybe they just focus fire and practice a lot?

It's not rocket science man.

Do you know how many times I'm on a "small" two or three man lance, begging the other lances to go to X location or avoid Y location because I know that's where we would have/lose advantage only to be ignored?

The losers of a match, have no one to blame but themselves.


I play in the team queue, a lot.

I play with both casual guys, and slightly more serious players.

I play anywhere from just two of us, up to 10 of us.



When we lose, it's because the other team played better.

Options are to get better yourself, or feel like a victim.

This is a good life lesson as well.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 September 2014 - 09:31 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Ultimatum X, on 15 September 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Or maybe they just focus fire and practice a lot?

It's not rocket science man.

Do you know how many times I'm on a "small" two or three man lance, begging the other lances to go to X location or avoid Y location because I know that's where we would have/lose advantage only to be ignored?

The losers of a match, have no one to blame but themselves.


I play in the team queue, a lot.

I play with both casual guys, and slightly more serious players.

I play anywhere from just two of us, up to 10 of us.



When we lose, it's because the other team played better.

Options are to get better yourself, or feel like a victim.

This is a good life lesson as well.

The L2P argument has never worked, never will. I'm free to blame outside elements I witness due to experience, then translate those pitfalls in the best way possible so he understands it's not simply "the harder you try the better you'll get" because this game is full of outside factors typical FPS games do not have, and are out of the player's control.

By providing a more controlled environment such as the Stock Monday match, the new player should benefit more because he is not simply fodder to feed the egos of players like yourself who wish to see everyone learn though pain and punishment. That is a very closed minded point of view, and one that has driven 1000s from this game because of that kind of attitude.