35 replies to this topic

[That Dawg]

On another forum, in an interweb far far from here, there is a thread about mechwarrior, its 160 pages long. Pretty substantial considering the few who use it. Started when this game went public.

Last couple of pages we have posted screens of the damage our lights are doing.
To the point my light is my go to weapon of choice.
Ravens doing over a 1000, kitfoxes doing 900 etc... Not a one time, whoohoo look at me event, I'm saying we're averaging 500 day in day out and brag when we break 800...and god help them when we launch 3. A light lance should not be able to control a battle.

When will the light become........a LIGHT?
Love my light and would hate to see it crippled but really......WTH?
A 70point alpha strike from any assault should at least leg one, or kill it out right.
Roles such as light weapons (a pair of mediums, MG's quad smalls) only? Dual arty or airstrike ability?
Dual UAV?
Better comms so when they visualize something its easier to ID? (chat bar BRIGHT blue)
Special light tag lasers that go out to 1200 meters (OR a tag laser mother joseph and mary can't see)
AND above all GETTING PAID TO DO IT (UNLIKE like that deal called conquest where three lights will win by capping and walk away with the SAME score as if your team won and you were hiding in the corner ffs)

[Bongfu]

I have been asking this since beta. PGI doesn't care about lights. They are newbie mechs, not actual battlefield assets in their mind.

They have no idea how to create a mech sim, so they will never get lights right.

[Mawai]

Well ... you are better light pilots than I. The best I have done is in the 500 to 600 range and that is rare - more often 200 to 400 unless I get blown up early (this is in Jenners/Firestarters).

On the other hand, I am usually playing in a risky scout/skirmish/brawl mode (trying to place a UAV ... sometimes NARC) rather than ECM-sniper which is where I think the Raven-3L and Kitfox manage to put up such numbers.

By the way, I was hit by a Direwhale in a match a couple of weeks ago ... I darted along a ridge on HPG long enough to try to pop a UAV and was on my way out when hit by a dual gauss/3C-ERPPC alpha and died. Cored the left side rear torso ... died in that game doing zero damage ... c'est la vie ... but it was a nice shot.

Also, the only times I have seen ECM-Snipers be very effective is when the other team ignores them ... they can be very effectively interdicted by light mechs and they really don't take that much damage to put out of commission. The last thing is that they are often doing their team very little good at all since the ECM is covering themselves while sniping and not saving the bulk of their team from opposing LRMs among other things.

If you want to shut down these little mechs ... don't take away their weapons ... take away their ECM

[That Dawg]

HELL no, ECM is thee ONLY thing that lets a light mech last longer than.......well, now

scout: high speed, electronic mask, add to that the ability to do what a scout does, inform the battalion, sabotage stragglers, try and split the forces (never chase the squirrel) and in general serve the larger force.

[process]

Lights are like LRMs: situationally underpowered or overpowered.

There isn't much more impotent than a Mech running around with about as much armor as an alpha strike, sporting a couple of lasers and machine guns.

There's nothing scarier than being in an end-game situation where everyone's cored except a speedy light with a couple of lasers and machine guns.

[Carrie Harder]

ThatDawg, on 12 September 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

...
A 70point alpha strike from any assault should at least leg one, or kill it out right.
Roles such as light weapons (a pair of mediums, MG's quad smalls) only?
...

70 point alphas, if you actually hit the target, will in fact leg or kill any light mech. 35 ton lights have 32 armor and 16 internals on their legs, meaning you need 48 damage to leg one. Their CT has usually around 32-38 armor and 22 internals, requiring 54-60 damage to core one. Side torsos on IS lights take roughly 27 armor and 16 internals to side-core. Smaller lights carry less armor and internals on all areas (minus the head of course).


As for "light weapons," Battletech doesn't make distinctions like that. There are light mechs armed with Gauss and ERPPCs stock, and there are even some derpy assaults armed with a handful of Small Lasers. Maybe you could argue for some kind of sized hardpoint system to distinguish the role of lights who are meant to carry the larger guns, but at the end of the day there should always be at least some lights capable of doing so.

Edited by Carrie Harder, 12 September 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[Lupin]

What lights at the moment? In Assault & Conquest we have a roles to play.
But Skirmish, seems the best you can hope for it hit & run harassment.

[RealityCube]

My usual in my lights is 300-600 damage a match, as long as I don't get killed early on from a double gauss or something. I completely stopped running sniper lights in favor of killing other lights or backstabbing heavies and assaults.

Lights really are hit or miss, you're either doing very well in a match, or you got instantly killed by an alpha strike. I'm glad to be seeing the numbers of lights spiked up a bit lately but in general only the most skilled light players still play them regularly which is why it may seem like lights are getting high numbers of damage regularly in the thread you're referencing.

Lights just die easily and don't always have a good way of either contributing, or making a lot of xp/cbills. There have been so many times where I've changed the entire course of a battle through a well placed UAV, having 3-4 mechs chase me instead of fighting my buddies, capping or killing a cap'er for last points, or completely coring out the back of an atlas or direwolf before they have a chance to do any real damage to my team. There just aren't any reward systems for "changed the entire course of the battle by distracting 3-4 large mechs and allowing the team to push on enemy positions". Of course I have to cover the fact that it is ridiculously hard to scout sometimes. Without something like passive sensors, your red indicator will alert enemies to your presence who normally would not have even noticed you, and I'm not talking about at 200 meters, I'm talking about 800 meters out. This is a major reason why ECM has become so important to light pilots and it's because you can't scout without it.

IDK what lights you're driving but a 70 alpha can and does kill my lights. The only two lights I feel that get off easy are the Firestarter and Spider, which seem to get hit a lot less than my other lights. I do own every light and have all of them mastered except the Locust.

Edited by Cyner, 12 September 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[CocoaJin]

Out of curiosity, when you speak of high damage with a light, please distinguish between IS or Clan....even the specific chassis.

I say this because I suspect it's not a light issue per say, but certain lights that do such high damage...I assume it's heavier weapon payload Clans that are the culprit, but I could be wrong and with you guys being more specific, I might be able to better confirm for myself.

Edited by CocoaJin, 12 September 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[Mycrus]

ThatDawg, on 12 September 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

On another forum, in an interweb far far from here, there is a thread about mechwarrior, its 160 pages long. Pretty substantial considering the few who use it. Started when this game went public.

Last couple of pages we have posted screens of the damage our lights are doing.
To the point my light is my go to weapon of choice.
Ravens doing over a 1000, kitfoxes doing 900 etc... Not a one time, whoohoo look at me event, I'm saying we're averaging 500 day in day out and brag when we break 800...and god help them when we launch 3. A light lance should not be able to control a battle.

When will the light become........a LIGHT?
Love my light and would hate to see it crippled but really......WTH?
A 70point alpha strike from any assault should at least leg one, or kill it out right.
Roles such as light weapons (a pair of mediums, MG's quad smalls) only? Dual arty or airstrike ability?
Dual UAV?
Better comms so when they visualize something its easier to ID? (chat bar BRIGHT blue)
Special light tag lasers that go out to 1200 meters (OR a tag laser mother joseph and mary can't see)
AND above all GETTING PAID TO DO IT (UNLIKE like that deal called conquest where three lights will win by capping and walk away with the SAME score as if your team won and you were hiding in the corner ffs)

yes, munchkins need moar reason go heavy/assault.

[Wolfways]

process, on 12 September 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

There's nothing scarier than being in an end-game situation where everyone's cored except a speedy light with a couple of lasers and machine guns.

That describes just about every one of my matches. High scorers are generally Firestarters and Jenners, with the occasional Raven-3L.
I'd love to know how CW is going to work when the clans have nothing that can catch a light. Lights that know to survive in Conquest generally win the match.
I also feel that the low viability of mediums is because lights are so good in combat. Mediums should be the choice for fast brawlers. Lights should be hit-and-fade harassers, not brawlers.

[That Dawg]

CocoaJin, on 12 September 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, when you speak of high damage with a light, please distinguish between IS or Clan....even the specific chassis.

both, kitfox, raven both ECM models come to mind immediately

Mycrus, on 12 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

yes, munchkins need moar reason go heavy/assault.

Missed my point, in its entirety.... MAKE the lights viable, as lights, as scouts.
Just like conquest does NOT pay to cap, it only pays if you damage or kill
Work it out so lights get more rewards for doing what they are supposed to do, scout.

Wolfways, on 12 September 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I also feel that the low viability of mediums is because lights are so good in combat. Mediums should be the choice for fast brawlers. Lights should be hit-and-fade harassers, not brawlers.

^that, exactly. lights should not make up the mass of the battle field, Mediums, all the way back to a show on youtube Russ did two years ago, mediums are the workhorses and those you will see most of.

[CocoaJin]

ThatDawg, on 12 September 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

both, kitfox, raven both ECM models come to mind immediately

Interesting, so maybe it's not so much being a good chassis, just that people don't pay attention unless there is a red dorito?

[Christof Romulus]

Let's spitball here how we would balance lights:
1. Disable Airstrikes and Artillery consumables for all mechs except for Lights.
2. Disable target sharing except for mechs equipped with Tag, Narc, or mechs that are Lights.
3. Disable friendly collision damage for all light mechs.
4. Disable all collision damage for the Locust. (I keep pushing for this...)
5. Light mechs receive an exp and Cbill award for being targeted for longer than 2 seconds.
6. Light mechs receive an exp and Cbill award for being damaged by multiple enemy sources within 2 seconds.

I'm sure there are better ideas out there, let's hear em'!

[Khobai]

One of the major problems is that lights more than any other weight class have to split their armor front/rear to make up for their lack of internal structure.

A heavy or assault mech can run minimal back armor, and even if they get hit in the back, they still have 30-40 internal structure to absorb the hit.

Conversely if a light mech has no back armor, and gets hit in the back, it dies instantly. Because of that lights HAVE to distribute their armor between their front and back, which is a really inefficient use of armor.

The obvious solution is to increase the internal structure of light mechs, with locusts and commandos getting the biggest increases, and the other lights getting smaller increases.

Edited by Khobai, 12 September 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 12 September 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

One of the major problem as I see it is this: Lights more than any other weight class have to split their armor front/rear to make up for their lack of internal structure.

So a heavy or assault mech can run minimal back armor, and even if they get hit in the back, they still have 30-40 internal structure to absorb the hit.

Conversely if a light mech gets hit in the back, and has no back armor, it dies instantly. Because of that lights HAVE to distribute their armor between their front and back. Which results in pinpoint damage absolutely crushing them.

So the obvious solution is simply to increase the internal structure of light mechs.

Or don't get hit in the back

Any mech that is going to spend time brawling needs some rear armour, and imo that's the problem with lights...they should not be brawling. A lights speed is for moving from cover to cover faster. Of all the classes it's the lights that should be trying to avoid being in the enemy LOS. If you are flanking you shouldn't really need much rear armour.

Edited by Wolfways, 12 September 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Because of the way the game is most often played the superior mobility of lights only occasionally comes into play. The teams group up and duke it out. What is needed is other objective that are powerful enough to fight for, but not so powerful that if you lose them you lose the game. And, I realize that is a tall order.

I think back to the principle of two weaknesses in chess. The idea is, you create two points you can attack and then use mobility to switch between them faster than the enemy can. If there were something similar in MWO the strength of a light would not be in its combat effectiveness but in its ability to create unbalanced fights across the map.

The thing is, with no respawns kills are such a huge advantage that it is difficult to come up with an objective that would cause teams to split up without also losing the game for a team if just one of their groups failed.

[DEMAX51]

I think the new Attack and Defend gamemode could really flesh-out the role of Lights in the game. Bigger maps, with multiple paths to approach the enemy, will put a lot more value in Scouting.

[Khobai]

Quote

Or don't get hit in the back

Thats impossible. You always get other light mechs chasing you. You need to have back armor in a light.

Quote

Any mech that is going to spend time brawling needs some rear armour, and imo that's the problem with lights...they should not be brawling. A lights speed is for moving from cover to cover faster. Of all the classes it's the lights that should be trying to avoid being in the enemy LOS. If you are flanking you shouldn't really need much rear armour.

And again you clearly dont know what youre talking about. How is a mech like a Commando 2D which has 3 missile hardpoints supposed to flank? It cant use ERLLs like a raven. Its longest ranged weapon is 270m. A Commando 2D HAS to brawl. Same goes for the Locust. Locusts are using primarily machine guns. They HAVE to brawl. And because they HAVE to brawl its not unreasonable to expect them to receive a paltry internal structure increase (enough so they dont get one-shotted by 30 damage pinpoint alphas).

All light mechs should be viable. Not just firestarters/jenners and ERLL ravens.

Edited by Khobai, 12 September 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Quick n Fast]

the only thing stopin roles for mechs in the game is us the community...
we rather have cheesebuilds n meta hump then to play a role with our mechs...
its been started over an over here on the forums.. no one wants to do it cause it doesnt pay to do so...
they rather just run meta n cheese builds cause it pays to stick to the norm...

Edited by Kahnawake MechMaster Prime, 12 September 2014 - 10:50 AM.