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First Spammers, then come the Bots


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#41 Aegic

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:47 AM

Not going to lie, never saw a bot/goldseller/spammer in WoT. Dont know if they exist, just never saw any.

I really dont imagine that will change here with this type of game.

I would think that for a game to be profitable for them they would need to have a game with trade. I think FTP games make them less attractive as well.

Diablo 3, now whats with general chat there?

Edited by Aegic, 24 June 2012 - 01:48 AM.


#42 Scimitar

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:03 AM

I honestly don't think bots would be really effective enough to bother even trying to use in a game like this, although it wont surprise me if people try anyway. I'm hoping people aren't jerkwards because this is one of my favorite fandoms.

#43 Calem

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:48 AM

As far as aiming/shooting is concerned, I have my worries, too. The lessons have been learned more than 15 years ago (http://www.raphkoste...ming/laws.shtml is still a must read for any serious game designer and those actually implementing). I particularly worry about people breaking encryption and just artificially filing for example headshots to the server.

In a game where aiming and shooting is done client-side and no element of server-side hit-roll seems involved, it seems hard to implement "Never trust the client. - Never put anything on the client. The client is in the hands of the enemy. Never ever ever forget this."

Would the server just believe the shot? If shooting is instead transmitted directional (I'm shooting w from position xyz to position xyz), how will the server factor lag into account? Would you never be able to accurately hit a running target if you play like 400ms in the past? (200ms from and back to the server would be realistic in my case). Or would the server go Yes, based on your average roundtrip time you have hit in `your time`, and I'll just display that hit as a current one?

I don't need to know any answers to those. I just hope PGI took these things into account right from the start and that they don't fool themselves about the potential magnitude of the issue. Would you still play if you had reason to believe x % of people are cheating? Since security through obscurity alone has never worked, I hope PGI tackled this as good as possible on code level.

#44 xenoglyph

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:57 AM

View PostCalem, on 24 June 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

As far as aiming/shooting is concerned, I have my worries, too. The lessons have been learned more than 15 years ago (http://www.raphkoste...ming/laws.shtml is still a must read for any serious game designer and those actually implementing). I particularly worry about people breaking encryption and just artificially filing for example headshots to the server.

In a game where aiming and shooting is done client-side and no element of server-side hit-roll seems involved, it seems hard to implement "Never trust the client. - Never put anything on the client. The client is in the hands of the enemy. Never ever ever forget this."

Would the server just believe the shot? If shooting is instead transmitted directional (I'm shooting w from position xyz to position xyz), how will the server factor lag into account? Would you never be able to accurately hit a running target if you play like 400ms in the past? (200ms from and back to the server would be realistic in my case). Or would the server go Yes, based on your average roundtrip time you have hit in `your time`, and I'll just display that hit as a current one?

I don't need to know any answers to those. I just hope PGI took these things into account right from the start and that they don't fool themselves about the potential magnitude of the issue. Would you still play if you had reason to believe x % of people are cheating? Since security through obscurity alone has never worked, I hope PGI tackled this as good as possible on code level.


I'm pretty sure they've got the Online Gaming 101 stuff covered. Seriously, the stuff you're worried about are the most basic, fundamental problems faced by a developer of online games and you seem to have zero knowledge in this field. Leave it to the experts.

#45 Stormlight666

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:13 AM

View PostEiki, on 22 June 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

But Bots imply tiny tiny robots!


Elementals?

#46 MrMasakari

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:14 AM

I personally wouldn't worry about it too much. Most bots will be harmless/useless or/and not very effective. The rest im sure will get plugged by some means. Spam bots aren't a problem they are just annoying as hell. Anything else, Aim bots, afkers etc im sure will just be dealt with like in most other mmos, report, screenshot blahblah. Hopefully if replays are introduced with some kind of mini match report people can literally just send the report off with the match ID and let them be dealt with accordingly. Something along those lines I guess anyway. B)

Edited by Artaire, 24 June 2012 - 04:14 AM.


#47 xenoglyph

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:22 AM

The normal notion of 'bots' i.e farmers isn't even applicable here. Since we can't trade resources between accounts we won't have farmers, cbill sellers, etc., simple as that.

If you meant bot as an actual AI that will use your main account, I don't think we have to worry much. The bot will have to be good enough to turn a profit by making more cbills than it spends on repairs. Furthermore, if somebody is smart enough to do that, I doubt they'll just hand it out to all their friends. I really don't think bots will be a huge issue in this game.

Edited by xenoglyph, 24 June 2012 - 04:23 AM.


#48 Calem

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:32 AM

Seems this thread is actually another case of recurrent thread: http://mwomercs.com/...ere-be-aimbots/

Note Brian Ekman's post on page 2, looks promising.

#49 Dead Winter Dead

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:35 AM

View PostSamuel Graves, on 22 June 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

They mostly come at night...

...mostly.


C'mon Bishop do the thing with the knife.

#50 Freakiie

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:13 AM

View PostAegic, on 24 June 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

Not going to lie, never saw a bot/goldseller/spammer in WoT. Dont know if they exist, just never saw any.

I really dont imagine that will change here with this type of game.

I would think that for a game to be profitable for them they would need to have a game with trade. I think FTP games make them less attractive as well.

Diablo 3, now whats with general chat there?


You should visit the WoT forums more often then B) Saw them in game a few times as well.

As for bots here, if we compare it to WoT again, it's not so much active bots that go around and shoot stuff. If you can however make c-bills and exp (even a tiny bit) with just standing at base or moving forward from your base until you get blown up then there will be bots. They won't do a lot in game (perhaps move forward and some very basic aim) but if you can even make a very small amount of c-bills/exp there will be people that will just use an autoclicker to enter battles for them over night.

The problem imo is the devs can't really make it so that you lose credits if you die while barely doing damage (imagine a light getting taken out by two high alpha mechs instantly?), because this would heavily punish newbies that aren't that good at the game yet. So I wouldn't be surprised if like in WoT we'll see a load of mechs that just camp the base the entire match or simply head out straight into the nearest building trying to bulldoze their way through. So I don't think there's a need to fear getting taken out by a bot, but it will get troublesome when you got 2 bots on your team and the enemy doesn't, meaning you're 2-0 down straight away. On the other hand, I doubt they'll be as incompetent as WG when dealing with this kind of stuff.

#51 Konflict

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:43 AM

View PostAegic, on 24 June 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

Not going to lie, never saw a bot/goldseller/spammer in WoT. Dont know if they exist, just never saw any.

I really dont imagine that will change here with this type of game.

I would think that for a game to be profitable for them they would need to have a game with trade. I think FTP games make them less attractive as well.

Diablo 3, now whats with general chat there?


There was plenty of bots in WoT at first. Using simple clickers or a bot that just moved to a point and fired its gun.
Problem in that game is you did not have to do any damage to anyone and even be killed and you got exp/gold. Thats why they used them, it was slow to level up that way but they still did it. There was also gold spamming ingame chat also.

Plus on the forums they are spammed all the time with gold sellers, yeah we all know you cannot trade in that game but they promote other games.

They did get all this cleaned up after awhile ingame but the forums can get messy when the gold seller bots do there thing.

#52 Badfinger

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 05:58 AM

What amazes me is how many bad players and poor sports will cry "Hacker" when a skilled player comes in an cleans their clock early in the game or preforms an action they can't do or didn't like. And the ones that cry "Bot" or "AFK" when a person has a unique playing style that they don't understand. They really believe that if you don't rush in and suicide, or if the battle goes sour and there no chance of doing anything but trying to save your self a big repair bill, yep you must be cheating!

Edited by Badfinger, 24 June 2012 - 06:03 AM.


#53 Insidious Johnson

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:30 PM

Some of you are thinking that people will use bots to WIN, lol, no. Bots in any other games are EASILY defeated. The problem is when you are stuck on a team as the only non-bot. Pulling 100% of the team weight and getting called a n00b the whole time you are getting multibanged while your "teamates" are stuck on part of the environment or target locked on the first enemy they see the whole game, predictably the scout who just circles them around the map while the rest of his team picks off each next caboose on the bot train. Now you are asking "WHY" would someone even BOTHER with bots? Titles, achievements, ranks, or anything that can only be acquired by playing the game over time are the typical reason. More than half of the "ubers" in Guild Wars pvp botted their way thru random arenas to get a rank respectable enough to get a team invite for hall of heroes 8v8 pvp teams. The biggest dumb@ss on the battlefield is usually not human. This is why titles in pvp usually mean nothing other than time spent playing and are basically worthless when bots are factored in. You want to know the best pvpers, ask a pvper. forget the stats after the first bot you see.

#54 Temu

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:25 PM

another problem with IP addy is some of us in more remote locations. I've played a game with a co-worker, when i joined the game he couldn't give any assistance due to us "having the same IP addy". We live in different towns, with diff. internet providers.

#55 Hexenhammer

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:39 PM

View PostTemu, on 24 June 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

another problem with IP addy is some of us in more remote locations. I've played a game with a co-worker, when i joined the game he couldn't give any assistance due to us "having the same IP addy". We live in different towns, with diff. internet providers.


Exactly. Problem with IP banning is its two broad and clumsy.
I ban 123.123.123.123 and that stops the cheater. But that addy belongs to Joe's LAN Cafe and I just killed the connection for 20 other players.

On a side note I wave the IP ban hammer around as a way to stop cheaters but I know it does more harm than good. Ban a legit player and you've burned a legit customer. IP ban a cheater and he'll figure out a different way to get on.

#56 Pando

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:37 PM

View PostBattlecruiser, on 24 June 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

well what were you expecting, blockbuster titles are usually propaganda with just enough substance to fool you for maybe a week until the hype fades from lack of anticipation. Thinking any of that money actually goes into security or game features is silly, i mean look at diablo three, did they ever solve the hacking issue or are they still telling you you must buy an authenticator to avoid their really bad security holes, and I won't even begin to get into all the features they cut because I'll be here for hours explaining why blizzard is a terrible company with its customer abuse.


View PostInsidious Johnson, on 24 June 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Some of you are thinking that people will use bots to WIN, lol, no. Bots in any other games are EASILY defeated. The problem is when you are stuck on a team as the only non-bot. Pulling 100% of the team weight and getting called a n00b the whole time you are getting multibanged while your "teamates" are stuck on part of the environment or target locked on the first enemy they see the whole game, predictably the scout who just circles them around the map while the rest of his team picks off each next caboose on the bot train. Now you are asking "WHY" would someone even BOTHER with bots? Titles, achievements, ranks, or anything that can only be acquired by playing the game over time are the typical reason. More than half of the "ubers" in Guild Wars pvp botted their way thru random arenas to get a rank respectable enough to get a team invite for hall of heroes 8v8 pvp teams. The biggest dumb@ss on the battlefield is usually not human. This is why titles in pvp usually mean nothing other than time spent playing and are basically worthless when bots are factored in. You want to know the best pvpers, ask a pvper. forget the stats after the first bot you see.


Look guys,

I’ve been around in the scene for 8-10 years now. I’ve learned the hard way you just have to have faith.

In 2006 when Halo 2 was at its prime, I was concerned with the lack of anti-cheat protection against “modders” as we called them. I had learned how to bridge connections in a computer class that same year in highschool. I bridged my connection with Bungie’s 3 fixed IP’s and had an un-named program searching for all IP’s that passed through mine looking for a match in matchmaking. Eventually there would be 4 strong IP’s that were attempting to connect to me. I would take those IP’s and place them in a “non-trusted” state but keep my firewall OFF until I verified they were cheating. Once verified, I scripted my firewall to trip low/high over and over again causing the anyone who’s IP was not protected (anyone except my team) to have the infamous “blue screen (attempting to reconnect, connecting, connected)” and it would cycle the entire game for them. For me and my team, we could run around freely and make sure we at the minimum won the match. Eventually word got out because this was basic computer knowledge. Bridging became the new modding.
Front Mission Evolved;
I loved that game initially. Within 15 minutes of multiplayer I was hooked! Also, within 15 minutes of multiplayer I had found my first cheater. Infinite health, infinite energy, infinite ammo and no heat generated when firing weapons. What a pleasurable experience that was. Thirty minutes later I had found out how to stop cheaters. I wrote a 4 page letter to Double Helix Games and Square Enix USA explaining my first hours experience and left messages on the open public boards. I was answered after all DLC packs had released roughly 4 months after the games release. I was advised there was nothing they could / would do about my findings. FME was no longer supported. I was renown within the FME community at the time as the only way to have a square match without having IHAKULOSE names ruining the fun. I took it much further and modified power/weight ratios and instantly boosted myself to the maximum prestige ( this was 45 minutes at the most ). I came back every now and then, the game was dead though. I still had a small friends group that wanted to play on a regular basis, 6 of us at the most. Modifying power/weight ratios was probably the most fun thing I’ve ever done in a mech game. FME’s imbalance made no sense to me. Light wanzer with all the heavy weapons, Heavy wanzer with pea’shooters. Light’s carried the biggest weapons and had the fastest movement. Heavys carried the smallest weapons, dealt no damage. The storyline “eye-catcher” was called Apollo’s Chariot. This wanzer was a superheavy and could carry 1 of 2 weapons. A single fist weapon ( worst one ) or a single SMG ( worst one). Modifying these ratios made sense. Put the big guns on the big mechs. They are slower and naturally defenseless against smaller wanzers. Smaller wanzers could carry less weaponry but could evade a heavy easily, still making them effective in combat. Again, I didn’t learn my lesson. We played in custom matches and only played one another with what I had created. Was a BLAST!

In BF3 honestly felt like I contributed there. Closed alpha, I had requested exclusively NOT to receive punishment if I could connect to a BF3 dev only server. Zxtn or Zach a DEV in a PM on BF3 alpha forums didn’t think I could do it. Well, Google chrome is awesome. As it turns out, what I had done was really nasty (you could password grab BF3 user accounts as tested on my cousin’s account). When I joined, one DEV said “hey you’re not supposed to be in here”. The other DEV said “Welcome to Caspian Boarder”. I enjoyed myself for a bit before being kicked by Zach XD. I told them what/how AND did not break my NDA on Caspian or the extension. This issue surfaced again in closed beta however less malicious. However, it was completely gone in open beta. It was there I decided that the only real way to benefit a game from a hacking standpoint is with direct contact with the DEV team.

Accept hacking as inevitability. There are programs designed to protect games from such misconduct but like most hackers out there are far from perfect (PUNKBUSTER is a great example of this OR a bot that runs into walls). I’m honestly not worried about having some minimum scripted crap standing in a corner shooting a wall or stuck somewhere running into boundaries. I’m worried about…..( ) ß what’s inside those parenthesis AKA nothing. I could go on, but it is not necessary. Have faith that is all.

PS; sorry for gramatical / spelling errors.

#57 Hikaru

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:23 PM

League of Legends.

100M players.

No players bots.
No gold spam.

/end

#58 AaronLee

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:20 PM

Just had a match that was an absolute clean sweep for the opposing team. No mroe then three - THREE - of my team members were actual humans. I personally saw at least 3 players running into walls firing one LASER at it, another guy shut down and sat by the base, another guy walked aroudn and looked at the buildings...

This is pretty much intolerable Versus an even remotely competent team, the game becomes unwinnable in that state. I was thinking about dumping some money into MC to maybe grab my first mech (a raven) or if I was generous a DR-5N (because that ultra, AC-5 looks like it would be very fun to use) but I'm out on that now, forget it.

When a player does 0 damage in a match, I'd think that's a pretty big shoe-in for a bot. If you literally do 0 damage as a player then, wow, I hope no one loses that bad.

#59 LarryDaBird

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:28 PM

Already found 3 bots/aimbots that claim to work for this game. Found one that works by putting a box on all friendlies and enemies no matter where they are dependent on line of sight. And that was during closed beta. I never have used one but I'm sure you can't bot or mod this game to cheat in any way with PGIs competent programming. Oh wait nvm we still have to lead a 85 kph mech with lasers cuz the netcode is broke....

#60 RaidSoft

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:49 PM

I've only played for a tiny bit and this has already caused me problems, don't think I have seen a game so far that didn't have at least 1 afk on either team.

It takes like 20+ games to get your first non-free mech in the first place and you are stuck playing games against people that just stomp your *** so I assume people just get over that by afk'ing in games since that still gives a pretty decent amount of CB. They just need a macro that keeps queuing them and they'll come back to a few million CB without doing anything at all.. Couldn't really see any good way of reporting this behavior easily either and it's extremely demoralizing since they gain the same (or close) as you for 0 effort.





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