116 replies to this topic

[Agent 0 Fortune]

@Livewyr
Of all the suggestions I have read so far, I like this the best, it is simple and elegant. I still feel that ECM extremely effective for 1.5 tons, but I think this would be a step in the right direction.

[Targetloc]

I would vote yes on this.

It's not my preferred change... but I would definitely accept it.

[n r g]

Livewyr, on 16 September 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Reading lots of posts about how people do not want ECM changed for various reasons.
Chief among them is:
It is my shield against (overpowered) LRMs.
I do not think it is a priority.

Both of these concerns have some merit, but so does (I think) the binary relationship with basic LRMs. (ECM shuts off LRM usage unless they carry extra gear to make them work)

In light of that, I think the most profound change, that is yet simple in nature, to move it closer to balance is this:

Target Sharing Disruption.

ECM would block target sharing but not Line of Sight targeting and missile locks.

What this means:
If you are in your mech that has LRM tubes as part of its load-out, you would be able to shoot your LRMs at an enemy ECM mech if you personally can see it.
If you are in a mech with LRMs and you are not in Line of Sight (behind cover or blocked by terrain) and one of your allies sees the ECM mech, the target data (red box) is not transferred to you. You cannot see the ECM mech from your buddy's target sharing. (Much as it is now.)

That would be the only change. It would allow basic LRMs to be used in an ECM environment, in a direct fire capacity, but not in indirect fire capacity. It would allow ECM to maintain somewhat of the stealth capability by continuing to shield the ECM mech from having its position broadcast to everyone on the enemy team. Only the mechs that have LoS will see the "dorito." (TAG and Narc would still effect as they do now in order to allow Indirect fire LRMs.)



If I had to put the change net effect in one sentence:

"It will still be stealth against anyone who cannot directly see it on their screens."


Thoughts?

missles are for too easy for novice players to use. ECM stays as is, and newer player/bad players must train/learn to get better instead of using a weapon/mechanism as a scapegoat and playing the victim.

//end thread

Edited by E N E R G Y, 16 September 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[Livewyr]

E N E R G Y, on 16 September 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

missles are for too easy for novice players to use. ECM stays as is, and newer player/bad players must train/learn to get better instead of using a weapon/mechanism as a scapegoat and playing the victim.

//end thread

And exactly what immense amount of skill is the mech with ECM using to make the "bad players" train to get better?

1-2 crits and 1/1.5 tons available? Double Click. = Skill?

<thread continues>

[EDIT] I decided I will turn that around:

E N E R G Y, on 16 September 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

ECM is for too easy for novice players to use. ECM changes, and newer player/bad players must train/learn to get better at avoiding missiles instead of using a piece of equipment as a scapegoat and playing the victim.

Edited by Livewyr, 16 September 2014 - 04:09 PM.

[Deathlike]

I can subscribe to this change. Please post more in your newsletter.

[Shino Tenshi]

Livewyr, on 16 September 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

You would still have a large part of that effect.

No ECM: You show up on everyone's radar the moment someone hits "R" on your regardless of their locations.
"New" ECM: Your dorito shows up on the radar of anyone who can see you. (LOS) however, them hitting "R" does not paste you on everyone's radar.

You would not have complete stealth (which is the realm of Stealth Armor) but you would still have "effective" stealth in that even if someone hits "R" on you with LoS, they are still the only ones that see you.

I wouldn't shot up automatically, no, but all that one person has to do is go to team chat and say "ECM KFX E3" and it's all over for me. Maybe make a separate stealth mode so I have to choose between completely hiding myself or partially hiding myself and my teammates like you're suggesting. I'd just really, really rather not lose my ability to sneak up behind the enemy to cause havoc of one form or another, whether it be LRM spotting, NARCing, or shooting their backs as the brawlers start their push.

[Livewyr]

Shino Tenshi, on 17 September 2014 - 03:47 AM, said:

I wouldn't shot up automatically, no, but all that one person has to do is go to team chat and say "ECM KFX E3" and it's all over for me. Maybe make a separate stealth mode so I have to choose between completely hiding myself or partially hiding myself and my teammates like you're suggesting. I'd just really, really rather not lose my ability to sneak up behind the enemy to cause havoc of one form or another, whether it be LRM spotting, NARCing, or shooting their backs as the brawlers start their push.

1: He could do that with the Mk1 Eyeball. , Current ECM or not.
2: Full stealth is pretty overpowered. There is precedent in Battletech, but it is Lostech that is not recovered for some time- and when it is, it pays a heavy price in space and weight (and heat.) 1.5 tons for total stealth is a lot of power for very little cost.

Also, you can still sneak up on people without ECM, I do it all the time in non-ECM lights and Mediums (and sometimes heavies), with the proposed change, it would just require a bit more skill to do.

This change would also bring the COM-2D, SDR-5d, KFX, RVN-3L, and CDA-3M closer in line with other fast mechs. (And might also bring it down below the bar that it is at, enough to make it available to some more mechs.)

Deathlike, on 16 September 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

I can subscribe to this change. Please post more in your newsletter.

Newsletter? *confused*

It is early morning for me right now, help me out. lol

Edited by Livewyr, 17 September 2014 - 05:21 AM.

[CharlieChap]

Good ideas Livewyr.

[Gyrok]

Gyrok, on 16 September 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

Quoting my response from another thread:[color=#CCCCCC]
Gyrok, on 15 September 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:[/color]
[color=#959595]

My thoughts:

-ECM Ghost targeting increases lock time to 200% of base time required for locks. This cannot be negated by modules/TCs/Command Console. This mode does not deny indication of position on sensor arrays, and denies information about the target being acquired until the target would be capable of being locked if you have LoS...without LoS your targeting data is not shared.

-ECM has 3 modes Ghost targeting (basically current disrupt but changed to the above mechanic), Counter (same as current), Personal stealth for the carrier mech which pertains to only the mech using it, and decreases sensor detection range to 180m for the carrier mech only.

-Narc/TAG reduces lock time on ECM equipped targets to normal time. This can work in conjunction with modules to decrease the lock time once ECM is countered by a spotter.

-LRMs can only fire indirect with a spotter.

-LRM angle of approach is a much flatter trajectory across the board (both direct/indirect) and velocity is increased to perhaps 180m/s

-NARC duration is reduced to 10 seconds, and cannot be knocked off.

-NARC/TAG negate the added lock time from ECM reducing the lock time to normal base time.[/color]

Maybe some of you will read this now...

Edited by Gyrok, 17 September 2014 - 05:36 AM.

[Livewyr]

Gyrok, I think you missed the spirit of the change proposed here.

Simple. Incredibly Simple. Something very easy to swallow, and even palatable to people who like ECM as it is now.


If we want to change things further, we can do that down the road, but the most critical piece is at least stepping in the right direction.

Crawl. Walk. Run.

[Gyrok]

What I proposed is likely but 1 step farther than your proposal.

Current ECM disrupt only applies to the carrier mech in disrupt/stealth mode.

Then you have ghost targeting which changes disrupt with the above mentioned mechanic to provide the anti-targeting bubble.

I think you dismissed my post off hand without actually reading it.

Edited by Gyrok, 17 September 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[Livewyr]

Gyrok, on 17 September 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

What I proposed is likely but 1 step farther than your proposal.

Current ECM disrupt only applies to the carrier mech in disrupt/stealth mode.

Then you have ghost targeting which changes disrupt with the above mentioned mechanic to provide the anti-targeting bubble.

I think you dismissed my post off hand without actually reading it.

Oh I read it.

You have 7 changes, to 4 different systems...including a new "mode."

Not simple, and not "one step" beyond the OP.

There are plenty of proposals out there that include those things... this one is meant to be simple for the sake of increased chance at success due to increased acceptance from a wider spectrum of players.

You are dismissing "Crawl" from Crawl->Walk->Run.

[TLBFestus]

What might be another approach is to allow "dumb fire" of LRMs, with the usual 180 (?) meter activation range of IS LRMS on a visible target that you can't get a lock on.

As long as they aren't moving you could still fire at their location and get hits. If they move or are moving it's tougher or you are SOL. Only thing I'd think is that the firing arc for "dumb fire" would need to be flattened as opposed to the arc with a target lock.

EDIT- I'm not a regular LRM user, so Dumb fire might still be active in the game, but the firing arc change would help.

Edited by TLBFestus, 17 September 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Livewyr]

TLBFestus, on 17 September 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

What might be another approach is to allow "dumb fire" of LRMs, with the usual 180 (?) meter activation range of IS LRMS on a visible target that you can't get a lock on.

As long as they aren't moving you could still fire at their location and get hits. If they move or are moving it's tougher or you are SOL. Only thing I'd think is that the firing arc for "dumb fire" would need to be flattened as opposed to the arc with a target lock.

That route sounds nice...but in addition to this change...at a later date. I have a LOT of things I want to do with LRMS and the whole info warfare pillar..

One little bit at a time. lol

[Deathlike]

Livewyr, on 17 September 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

Newsletter? *confused*

It is early morning for me right now, help me out. lol

Meme reference (I wrote a cheap/half-arsed variation on it):
http://everything2.c...your+newsletter

I do agree with the idea anyhow.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 September 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[Maxx Blue]

I would rather see un-assited (i.e. no TAG/NARC) indirect fire still be possible, but with penalties to lock time and/or missile spread. I'm OK with the penalties being pretty substantial, but I think it should at least be possible. Indirect fire is one of the most disticntive features of LRM's, and I would hate to see that go away entirely. I'm OK with making it less powerful, but I don't think it has to be removed entirely unless you have a team mate with TAG/NARC.

[Mawai]

Khobai, on 16 September 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

This idea defeats the entire purpose of LRMs which is indirect fire. If LRMs cant indirect fire theres really no point in using them over other weapons.

A better idea is to make ECM a soft counter to LRMs rather than a hard counter. And then weaken indirect LRMs just enough so that they no longer need a hard counter to be balanced. For 1.5 tons its completely ridiculous for ECM to hard counter anything.

Actually blocking sharing of targeting information for all mechs within an ECM range IS a soft counter to LRMs. It doesn't prevent the use of LRMs against those mechs ... it just means the LRMs have to get their own targeting data.

There would still be all of the usual counters to ECM ... but ECM would not be a cloak that literally hides all friendly mechs from any form of targeting.

One possible issue is the use of SSRM. By making this change ECM becomes completely ineffective against SSRM. They might want to consider imposing a lock time increase when a target is within the area of effect of an ECM in addition to turning off target relaying.

Edited by Mawai, 17 September 2014 - 01:48 PM.

[Livewyr]

Mawai, on 17 September 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

One possible issue is the use of SSRM. By making this change ECM becomes completely ineffective against SSRM. They might want to consider imposing a lock time increase when a target is within the area of effect of an ECM in addition to turning off target relaying.

2 things:
A: G-ECM is not supposed to effect SSRMs anyways. (That is Angel)
B: With the BAP counter at 150, that is hardly a change anyways. (It would just mean that SSRMs do not need to pay a BAP tax to be used.)

[Nathan Foxbane]

@Livewyr

I would like to think my 31st century engine of destruction is advanced enough to have reliable LoS communications (laser or tight beam radio). If a line of sight exists to the spotter in an ECM bubble an LRM firing 'Mech should be able to get locks with limited speed and accuracy degradation. No line of sight to the spotter and you have probably the best idea for changing ECM I have ever seen.

For everyone:
ECM never should have been "Instant stealth, just add power", it should have been all your advanced targeting gear is useless. Active Probe and Artemis (the very systems which ECM was created to counter) should have come out together and both predated the introduction of ECM into the game instead of just Artemis. May seem counter intuitive to many players, but while a 'Mech carrying ECM should increase lock and information gathering times, degrade accuracy, and hide allies, it should pop up instantly on the radar of any 'Mech affected by it (including anything with LoS) since it is an active system. Maybe ghost around a bit on the minimap, but still be shown. Passive systems hide, active systems give themselves away in order to jam. Really the difference between hiding from someone trying to shoot you and shining a flashlight in their eyes. ECM works like the flashlight, they know where you are, they are just too blind to get a good shot at you.

Short version of this? I have always believed ECM should strip bonuses provided by equipment like Artemis and BAP, not be one to one point five tons of poor man's Null Sig.

Mawai, on 17 September 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

One possible issue is the use of SSRM. By making this change ECM becomes completely ineffective against SSRM. They might want to consider imposing a lock time increase when a target is within the area of effect of an ECM in addition to turning off target relaying.

Streaks are supposed to be Fire-And-Forget laser guided missiles. They are already more affected by ECM than they should be. Which was the point of so many post Helm Memory Core 'Mechs having Streaks (other than ammo efficiency). The fast little ankle-biters that carried ECM could not make the most of their close combat builds, but the skirmishers and mobile snipers were still very dangerous.

[DocBach]

Nathan Foxbane, on 17 September 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

@Livewyr

I would like to think my 31st century engine of destruction is advanced enough to have reliable LoS communications (laser or tight beam radio). If a line of sight exists to the spotter in an ECM bubble an LRM firing 'Mech should be able to get locks with limited speed and accuracy degradation. No line of sight to the spotter and you have probably the best idea for changing ECM I have ever seen.

For everyone:
ECM never should have been "Instant stealth, just add power", it should have been all your advanced targeting gear is useless. Active Probe and Artemis (the very systems which ECM was created to counter) should have come out together and both predated the introduction of ECM into the game instead of just Artemis. May seem counter intuitive to many players, but while a 'Mech carrying ECM should increase lock and information gathering times, degrade accuracy, and hide allies, it should pop up instantly on the radar of any 'Mech affected by it (including anything with LoS) since it is an active system. Maybe ghost around a bit on the minimap, but still be shown. Passive systems hide, active systems give themselves away in order to jam. Really the difference between hiding from someone trying to shoot you and shining a flashlight in their eyes. ECM works like the flashlight, they know where you are, they are just too blind to get a good shot at you.

Short version of this? I have always believed ECM should strip bonuses provided by equipment like Artemis and BAP, not be one to one point five tons of poor man's Null Sig.


Streaks are supposed to be Fire-And-Forget laser guided missiles. They are already more affected by ECM than they should be. Which was the point of so many post Helm Memory Core 'Mechs having Streaks (other than ammo efficiency). The fast little ankle-biters that carried ECM could not make the most of their close combat builds, but the skirmishers and mobile snipers were still very dangerous.

I just wrote this up in response to a different post, but its an appropriate response to the above comment.

When doing research for my essay I came to the conclusion that ECM is actually pretty spot on to how it should act when you take in its effects from the expanded rule sets like Tactical Operations.

The most apparent difference between MechWarrior Online and Battletech is the fact that Battletech doesn't take in account of requiring a manual lock like PGI translated in their LRM mechanic -- if you can see it in Battletech, you can shoot it as if ECM isn't present.

Probably the best way to implement that in this game would be to allow enemies that are visible within sensor range to be manually targeted -- put the reticle over the visible enemy and hit R and you get a target on him, and thus be able to use LRM's. Add in an interpretation scanning rules from Tactical Operations in the form of delayed targeting information on manually selected targets inside of ECM and call it a day.

LRM's are no longer hard countered but still penalized with the 100% lock on time delay, players would need to maintain situational awareness with the "Eyeball Mk 1," and being able to share the target location with friendlies would give the PUG's somewhere to steer their attention to.

Edited by DocBach, 17 September 2014 - 02:11 PM.