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Clan Lasers: A New Direction?

Balance Weapons

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#1 EoRaptor

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 07:06 AM

Recently, Russ indicated that a player driven review of game balance was being considered. Initially, this was centered on the function of ECM in game. Unfortunately, this proved to be a complex and contentious issue. It was then indicated that maybe the review should start with something else, so I made this post.

Please share you comments. For any criticism, identify what you are criticizing, what you feel is the issue, and what you would do to resolve it. Where possible, use game scenarios to help illustrate your poin to others who may not play in the same style.

I’ve been thinking about the differences between Clan mentality and IS mentality, and think we could use a very loose interpretation of the lore as a starting point for improving the balance between the two groups without simply giving them identical weapons, which we don’t want. I'm going to focus on laser energy weapons, and see how that goes.

Goal: To differentiate weapons using features available to us in a first person shooter. This allows the reduction of a weapons effectiveness without making that weapon similar to other weapons of the same class. Where possible, use any limitations of an online play system to help defenders, not attackers. This is perceived as more fair.

Restriction: Where possible, avoid solutions that require new game code. Strive for easier to perform changes that allow rapid, repeated testing via variable adjustments. Such testing would also give us the outline of any possible code changes that are deemed necessary.


IS Lore Assumption: Generations of warfare have worn down the ability to field effective armies, with support, repair and supply all compromised or intermittent. MechWarrior’s depend on striking first and striking hard, knowing that enemy mechs have little redundancy and will often lose equipment or mobility if they can only be struck decisively. Little quarter is given or expected, and salvage is highly valued as a method of sustaining battle readiness.

IS Simplification: An armoured knight with a big sword. Patched and dirty he may be, but if he can land a blow you are going to be hurt.


Clan Lore Assumption: As a small isolated group, their leaders quickly realized that unlimited internecine warfare was unsustainable. Battle became ritualized, with the seeking on honour considered more important that outright damage or destruction. Victory and spoils came to those who were judged best, not those who performed best. This thinking took over day to day society, with trials and rituals becoming the path to advancement, and a team mentality pervading your role in society. Unthreatened by direct conflict, industry and technology bent towards the furthering of status and rank.

Clan Simplification: The fencer. Quick and nimble, he seeks out technical strikes, and will turn aside damage that would stop lesser men.


What that means to us in MWO:


Clan energy weapons:

Clan energy weaponry is radically changed, not in damage or heat or range, but in implementation. Instead of lengthening the burn and recycle time on lasers, we drastically shorten it:

Clan ER Medium Laser:
  • Duration: 300ms
  • Damage: 1.6
  • Cool down: 400ms
  • Range: 450m
  • Heat: 1.45

This gives us the same DPS and HPS, but with much more player skill required to maintain contact with an enemy mech. Players must remain steady even when tapping the button to apply damage to one section.


This also turns something that is currently a disadvantage for the enemy mech into an advantage: Latency no longer hurts them, in benefits them. EG: Firing mech has 50ms of latency. Enemy mech has 200ms of latency. With long duration lasers, I can put 450ms of damage into a single section before they can turn away (50ms up + 200ms down +200ms up), which for a Clan ER Medium, gives us about 2 dmg. The more latency, the more damage the firing mech can impart before the enemy mech can turn to disperse it.

In this new system, there are enforced blanks that are shorter than the average latency. The firing mech can impart not more than one complete strike before the enemy mech can respond, so maximum ‘initial’ damage is no more than 1.2dmg before the enemy can turn to disperse to evade the follow-up shot.

Now, it becomes a contest of pilot skill, not of ping.

Lore tie-in: These technical hits showcase the ability to aim accurately and quickly, to strike with skill at an injured or weak section, but reduce the chance of a killing blow. They allow honourable surrender instead of destruction, and fit into the fencer mentality.

Knock on effects:
I’ve seemingly turned the regular clan laser into a pseudo pulse laser, haven’t I? Well, sort of, but the clan pulse laser is also slated for adjustment.
Clan Medium Pulse Laser:
  • Duration: Infinite
  • Damage per pulse: .3
  • Pulses per second: 5
  • Range: 360m
  • Heat: .2 * (Duration in milliseconds * N)
  • Cool down: (Duration of last fire / X)

These are machinegun lasers. Just hold down the trigger and they will keep firing. Note, however, that heat grows exponentially with duration, and cool down grows linearly. You can resume firing before cool down, but the heat calculation works out how many milliseconds remained, and pick up from there.


Proposed initial value for N is .035 and X is .5.

(Note: We may have to implement an input rate limiter, to stop people scripting pressing the fire button thousands of times a second to avoid the heat penalty.)

If we imagine the weapons as modern rifle, the Clan ER Medium is a blend of single shot and three round burst, and the medium pulse is our full auto setting.

The large and small versions of these weapons are extrapolated from the medium versions. For small lasers, the performance is very close, with more range or more damage+heat being the variables that set them apart.


IS Energy Weapons:

The IS main line energy weapons don’t gain any new mechanisms, the Small, Medium, Large and ER Large are the starting weapons around which other energy weapons vary. Tuning them within their existing variables (range, duration, cycle, damage and heat) is fine.

The IS pulse weapons gain a new ability: double tap

IS Medium Pulse Laser:
  • Duration: unchanged
  • Damage: unchanged
  • Range: unchanged
  • Cycle time: standard fire: unchanged, double tap: -250ms
  • Heat: standard fire: reduced, double tap: increased

Double tap brings an ultra-auto cannon type effect to help differentiate pulse lasers. You can fire the weapon early, but take extra heat for doing so. This is shown in game by the countdown meter turning from a red bar to an orange bar before turning green. You can fire during the orange bar, but you will pay for it with added heat.


There is no lore for origin for this, it’s pure invention. To provide continuity, this double tap ability could also be applied to the clan ER <size> lasers.

Along with this ability could come a new interface feature: the weapon group double tap toggle. Just like you can toggle a group from alpha to chain fire, you can also toggle whether holding the mouse button down will double tap or standard fire the weapons therein. You can bind a group to a fixed key, or select it using the arrow keys and use a universal toggle (plus sign?). This applies to any weapon in that group that supports double tap.

Again, when commenting, please describe scenarios showing situations where this solution would not work, or would cause unfair advantages to one side over the other, and how such advantages would play out in game.

Thanks.

#2 Asyres

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 07:27 AM

Fire & twist is an incredibly important tactic. Forcing users of clan energy weapons to face tank the enemy would render those weapons virtually unusable.

#3 BlakeAteIt

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 07:37 AM

On the other hand, their increased range would keep them from taking a fair portion of the return fire. It would certainly lead to different tactics between the two groups.

#4 Ardlen

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 07:47 AM

View PostEoRaptor, on 16 September 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Clan Medium Pulse Laser:
  • Duration: Infinite
  • Damage per pulse: .3
  • Pulses per second: 5
  • Range: 360m
  • Heat: .2 * (Duration in milliseconds * N)
  • Cool down: (Duration of last fire / X)
(Note: We may have to implement an input rate limiter, to stop people scripting pressing the fire button thousands of times a second to avoid the heat penalty.)
Another approach to avoiding scripting is to add an initial heat cost:
  • Heat: Y + .2 * (Duration in milliseconds * N)
Y could be set to a small value like .2 Heat. If people tap the fire button thousands of times a second, they'll burn up.

#5 Lefty Lucy

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 07:53 AM

I'm not sure if your exact numbers are right, but I like thinking like this.

#6 Feindfeuer

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:06 AM

Not sure about the stat details, but the general idea sounds fitting. And the extension for the interface would keep people from unintentionaly burning their mechs up or their fingers, if they want to double tab, but are getting old (or are drunk).

#7 B0oN

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:11 AM

Hmmmmmm, merituous idea, not bad at all .

Now how to convince the others to at least "think" about it ;)

#8 DasaDevil

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:14 AM

It would be neat, but with the way IS Autocannons work clan mechs would more or less be screwed in every respect, being forced to face their enemies while the enemies can spread damage across their mechs.

Not something I would necessarily care for, personally.

#9 Ultimax

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:16 AM

Face tanking in this game equals losing, clan XL, std - it doesn't matter.

Forcing clan mechs to face tank to do damage would be a titanic nerf, and basically be awful.

No.

#10 Carrie Harder

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:16 AM

Some kind of energy weapon designed like MW3 Pulse Lasers would be fun.

Also, IS Pulse (or maybe Clans, either or) might work as "laser machine guns" of sorts with higher DPS than now (maybe lower HPS too, to compensate), but with less upfront damage. Full-auto wub wub for everyone!

Edited by Carrie Harder, 16 September 2014 - 08:17 AM.


#11 EoRaptor

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:20 AM

View PostAsyres, on 16 September 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Fire & twist is an incredibly important tactic. Forcing users of clan energy weapons to face tank the enemy would render those weapons virtually unusable.


I'm not sure why you are thinking this? It seems like the opposite should happen. Can you give an example scenario?

The current clan lasers have a very long burn time, forcing a player 'stare' at an enemy for the entire duration of the weapons firing, or to look away and waste the damage but still get the heat. With the shorter time but same DPS, you can turn away at any point between shots if you feel you need to, and a lighter mech can twist and shoot quite quickly if the pilot is skilled enough, at the cost of some DPS but no extra heat. For the pulse style lasers, you can stop and turn away at any time, giving an advantage to positioning and surprise, both pilot skills.

Again, I want to make pilot skill something that helps differentiate the weapons. This allows the matchmaker to shuffle players into groups they will find competitive, instead of everything being driven by the choice of gun. If a player doesn't have the skill to twist and fire effectively, then they will also be better matched when dropping.

#12 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:26 AM

I like your way of thinking, trying to differentiate the technologies but I do not like the approach you have selected. This would essentially turn clan lasers into a DPS weapon that requires constantly facing the target and defensive twisting becomes impossible. I would rather not remove one of the more interesting player skills from one faction.

While we're on the topic of lasers though, I have a suggestion for pulse lasers. From sarna:

"Pulse lasers increase damage because they allow vaporized armor to dissipate from the location of damage. This allows subsequent pulses to reach the target area without being diffused by the vapor."

I think it would be interesting if each pulse that hits the same location as the pulse before it did increased damage to make the overall damage higher and the weapon system more desirable.

Edited by Rouken, 16 September 2014 - 08:26 AM.


#13 Asyres

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:31 AM

View PostEoRaptor, on 16 September 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:


I'm not sure why you are thinking this? It seems like the opposite should happen. Can you give an example scenario?
*snip*


In the current implementation:
I fire 4CERML for 1.25s, doing 28 damage, after which I can twist away to spread damage.

In your suggested implementation:
I fire 4CERML for 1.25s, doing 12.8 damage. In order to do 28 damage, I would need to face the enemy directly for 4 seconds, which is completely untenable.

It's actually better to fire the current implementation for less than the full duration, then twist away (wasting some of the damage) than to use the method you've suggested. This is because while both implementations have the same raw DPS, the current (long beam) lasers have a higher DPS while firing.

#14 EboneezeeR

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 08:37 AM

View PostDasaDevil, on 16 September 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

It would be neat, but with the way IS Autocannons work clan mechs would more or less be screwed in every respect, being forced to face their enemies while the enemies can spread damage across their mechs.

Not something I would necessarily care for, personally.

IS AC's are perfectly fits the Lore.

That "laser buff" is just so Nerf. Request Closing he thread.

Edited by EboneezeeR, 16 September 2014 - 08:38 AM.


#15 EoRaptor

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:05 AM

View PostAsyres, on 16 September 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:


In the current implementation:
I fire 4CERML for 1.25s, doing 28 damage, after which I can twist away to spread damage.

In your suggested implementation:
I fire 4CERML for 1.25s, doing 12.8 damage. In order to do 28 damage, I would need to face the enemy directly for 4 seconds, which is completely untenable.

It's actually better to fire the current implementation for less than the full duration, then twist away (wasting some of the damage) than to use the method you've suggested. This is because while both implementations have the same raw DPS, the current (long beam) lasers have a higher DPS while firing.


You are thinking that people will behave identically even if the weapon performance is changed. I don't believe that would be the case. Lighter mechs could easily turn away between single shots, and heavier mechs could fire a burst and turn away only when the enemy mech responded, maximizing their damage potential while minimizing their risk.

If you wish to impart 1.25 seconds of damage, you can choose the pulse variant of the laser and simply fire it for that long before turning away. Again, I'm providing weapon differentiation to drive pilot choice.

Also, I carefully matched the proposed laser performance to the current laser performance to showcase the idea, not the numbers, but there is no reason it must be that way. We could easily return to the higher damage, lower heat clan lasers of the initial release if play testing shows the damage dropping too much.

#16 EoRaptor

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:11 AM

View PostEboneezeeR, on 16 September 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

IS AC's are perfectly fits the Lore.

That "laser buff" is just so Nerf. Request Closing he thread.


While I'm aware of the comparison between my proposal and the burst system chosen for balancing clan autocannons, I don't think they perform in the same way, as the burst duration of clan autocannons is fixed, not selectable and much longer in duration. clan autocannon behaviour is much close to the stare at your target for a long time of current clan er lasers than my proposed clan er lasers.

And, if you had checked, the proposed clan er laser numbers are identical in DPS and HPS to the current clan er lasers, so neither a buff nor a nerf. If you wish to contribute, please do so based on my proposal, not based on assumptions.

#17 ApolloKaras

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:24 AM

I think you would bring the server to its knees. We're having enough problems with all the Hitscan weapons now :)

#18 Odins Fist

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:27 AM

View PostAsyres, on 16 September 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Fire &amp; twist is an incredibly important tactic. Forcing users of clan energy weapons to face tank the enemy would....


THIS^, and it can't be said enough...

If Clan Tech was implemented how it is "SUPPOSED" to be, then rivers of tears would be drowing most Inner Sphere pilots right now... RIVERS

Edited by Odins Fist, 16 September 2014 - 09:28 AM.


#19 kapusta11

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:30 AM

Just set the damn 30 heat cap with penalties and doubled dissipation and then suddenly IS tech deals more damage with the same heat. Clans have range advantage, IS have damage advantage, sounds balanced to me.

Any experienced player will laugh in clanner's face while torso twisting and spreading damage across the mech. Anything above 1 sec is too much, hell even 1 sec is pretty long.

Edited by kapusta11, 16 September 2014 - 09:33 AM.


#20 Lefty Lucy

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:35 AM

View PostEboneezeeR, on 16 September 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

IS AC's are perfectly fits the Lore.

That "laser buff" is just so Nerf. Request Closing he thread.


Other than cooldown modification to turn low-caliber ACs into useful weapons, IS ACs fit table-top rules in that they do a set amount of damage to a single location per hit roll.

In "lore" most autocannons are burst fire. That's basically because authors like the idea of a giant machine gun more than they like the idea of a giant recoilless rifle.





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