211 replies to this topic

[Abivard]

I noticed that the fights that went to the IS tended to have high amounts of clan trial mechs in the match.

IS teams heavy on ECM and LRMs worked out better than other mixes .

[HlynkaCG]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Okay I think I am going to bring the test down early at 6pm, we did manage to get some good test data - basically enough.

A few were upset about the test I guess railroading their night with matches that are unfair. A misjudgetment on my part I suppose, I thought everyone would love it. Perhaps most did.

Anyhow going to edit the original post and have the guys bring it down in 20 minutes.

Personally I enjoyed It (playing Inner Sphere for the reccord) and I think mpOO might be on to something here, I wonder how many of those who are posting 0/12 Clan vs IS stomps are playing purely Skirmish,

[Abivard]

If you take away clan mechs ability to equip Arty or airstrike that would help balance the two factions and at the same time help immersion, after all Arty and Air are dishonorable to real clanner's.

[Kresteel]

I am surprised that anyone playing MWO can think that IS 12v12 against Clan is anywhere close.... Clan mechs are so far superior to the IS it is sad... We needed to test this to see? On the other hand.... Maybe they are not supposed to be equal... Im good with that too.

[wanderer]

Abivard, on 16 September 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

If you take away clan mechs ability to equip Arty or airstrike that would help balance the two factions and at the same time help immersion, after all Arty and Air are dishonorable to real clanner's.

Do I have to start posting Nagas and Clan Arrow IV tanks that have been around since the Exodus, again?

It's not frickin' dishonorable, merely that personal combat is more glorious-and there's plenty of Clan aerospace pilots with bloodnames.

[sneakolai]

Some of the least fun I've had, and I was under the impression I played to have fun.

[Kiiyor]

If Russ is keen to SCIENCE this whole thing, why not sweeten the deal?



Apologies for the crappy photoshop, but the idea became greater than my desire to do a poster in the end.

I'd drop like a boss if I was cashed up for killing those stinking trashborn.

[Tomcat0815]

You guys know the BV = Battle Value concept from the board game? You can look up a mechs battle value at sarna. There is some formula to calculate BV based on chassis and loadout I suppose.

My idea: Build a factor from players ELO and a mechs battle value.
First, normalize ELO: Best Player is 1, worst is 0. Result: Normalized ELO between 0 and 1 for every player.
Second, calculate and normalize battle value for all mechs in the queue. Gives every mech a BV between 0 and 1.
Multiply normalized ELO with normalized BV.
Finally, let match maker match teams based on that number, meaning the sum of all BV x ELO for each team should be the same.

This way, the extremely high BV of e.g. a Dire Wolf compared to an Atlas would be compensated.

Problem solved. Hooray!

Additional note: People who enjoy Clan vs. IS matches also enjoy beating up school kids under the age of 12 I suppose.

[Cab]

The BV is needed desperately. I wonder why this idea has to come from the community ...

[STEF_]

Imo, ClanvsIS matches have a sense only with 12(is)vs10(clan) matches.

Or....... BV!

http://mwomercs.com/...levalue-system/

[MadTulip]

You should implement the LT/RT thing based on critical slots instead of "effect once LT or RT is lost". Its easier to go on from there with like crit hip hits. Also a mech could die this way if you loose LT and get a lucky crit on CT without loosing all internal structure.

[Shino Tenshi]

Well that sucks, yet another IS vs. Clan matchmaker time that I've missed. Some more warning would be great next time so I can make a point of playing during the allotted times.

[sabujo]

I managed to have a few IS Vs. Clan yesterday, and clans won around 60% of the times. I dropped in Arrow IS mech.

It's difficult to say if the clan mechs are OP or if the teams experience was just out of balance. But from the 8 games I played under this model, 5 were won by Clanners. If the IS team gets focused and work together, there is a good chance for winning.
Thank you for this "ninja" test. It was a pleasent surprise.

What was also pleasent was the IS vs IS games - gosh, I missed those! And in my impression as piloting a fragile 45 ton mech, it's easier to fight against them mainly due to range issues and the XL engine vulnerability. Got plenty of kills during those matches!

[Lily from animove]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

I have decided to turn the Match Maker to Clan vs IS matching for a few hours this afternoon/evening. I think it is time that we collect some new data on the current state of balance between the two technologies.

We will of course be keeping player skill and other factors in mind when looking at the data, while compariing it to the previous IS vs Clan tests.

When: 3:00 PM PDT and will last for an estimated 3 hours depending on results and the quality of play.

Expected Behaviour: Players should expect to experience Clan vs IS matches or when necessary the MM will release valve IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan matches.

I may also consider creating a test window tomorrow during our peak European times.

Update: Solo Queue only

Update 2: changed the duration to 3 hours to restore more equality of play.

I don't know not a good time for taking Europe palyers into account. Also maybe try to announce this earlier and let it run for a whole day?
I am quite sure, when some Clan veterans would decide to go back to their Innersphere mechs they used for a long time, they would be able to show that IS mechs still can beat Clanmechs quite well. because i don't have troubles with Clanners in my atlas, or in my Phract.
SO not sure when good players with the intention to win choose the better suited mechs this will even more imbalance the real results.

OHHH BIG IDEA: make a weekend challange: Clan vs IS

Make it the same as the lance challange, just with 4 goals parallel:

Score 200 points in a IS mech get X
Score 400 points in a IS mech get Y

Score 200 Points in a Clanmech get Z
Score 400 Points in a Clanmech and get U

this way you can test how organised groups play vs each other in faction seperated mechs AND you can make sure, that People during the event will change the sides and play both factions equally so all kind of player skills will also use all kind of mechs.

+ optionally: Force 3/3/3/3 to the matchmaker?

this should track quite better data.

Kiiyor, on 16 September 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

If Russ is keen to SCIENCE this whole thing, why not sweeten the deal?



Apologies for the crappy photoshop, but the idea became greater than my desire to do a poster in the end.

I'd drop like a boss if I was cashed up for killing those stinking trashborn.

basically a good idea, but flawed by 2 things:

People because of the event will tend to use IS mechs, meaning not enouhg Clanners on the field.
Clanmechs now will mostlikely be piloted by uninformed Clannewbies getting crushed by experienced IS pilots.

For clean data, you need to make sure to spread the pilot skill equally across both factions. And for this you need to give them a proper intention to play both factions equally at the "same" time.

And the the mostworries I have is: clanmech balance by clan vs IS. Thats hardly working when within the clans balance is not much existent. Speaking about Nova vs Stormcrow or Summoner vs Timberwolf. TW is definately too superior to many other Clanmechs. thats why at leats a 3/3/3/3 limit should exists, otherwise clan balance judgement will be too much biased by the dominance of TBR and DWF.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 September 2014 - 04:39 AM.

[3D Action]

From my point of view Clan tech is stronger than IS.
But it doesn't bring an instant win for Clans.
Much depends on players' skill of course.
But if we suggest last one is equal, I would predict at least 65% winrate for Clans.

For this moment, after a slight nerf of Clan tech, only Clan LRM look more or less balanced. No minimal range and much smaller tonnage is good, but the fact you fire your LRM not instantly but in a chain make them more vulnerable for AMS and lowers DPS.

Things combined, Direwolf is far the most dangerous assault mech. And Timber wolf - heavy mech.

[Kiiyor]

Lily from animove, on 17 September 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

basically a good idea, but flawed by 2 things:

People because of the event will tend to use IS mechs, meaning not enouhg Clanners on the field.
Clanmechs now will mostlikely be piloted by uninformed Clannewbies getting crushed by experienced IS pilots.

For clean data, you need to make sure to spread the pilot skill equally across both factions. And for this you need to give them a proper intention to play both factions equally at the "same" time.

And the the mostworries I have is: clanmech balance by clan vs IS. Thats hardly working when within the clans balance is not much existent. Speaking about Nova vs Stormcrow or Summoner vs Timberwolf. TW is definately too superior to many other Clanmechs. thats why at leats a 3/3/3/3 limit should exists, otherwise clan balance judgement will be too much biased by the dominance of TBR and DWF.

Well, the clans really are held up by the Triumvirate (well, quad) of Awesome: the DireWhale, Crow, Wolf and WarHawk.

I think one of the biggest issues is their top end, as most matches see the Clans packing far more tonnage into their heavies and Assaults.

I wouldn't worry too much about less Clan players dropping through. I know may who would still relish the opportunity to splatter 'Sphere mechs all over the landscape. If the queues don't have enough Clans, it just falls back to IS vs IS anyways, which is refreshing.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

For me the problem lies in the players.

The IS mechs, have a wide variety of choice, and alot of IS mechs that are popular are downright terrible and people bring downright terrible builds on them ( Raven 2X's, Quickdraws, Thunderbolts to name a few) some people even manage to bring horrific Jagermech builds

The clans on the other hand are more streamlined, and it's hard to bring a terrible build (sans 1-2 chassis) and are limited on chassis selection so it's skewed from the very beginning.

Edited by DV McKenna, 17 September 2014 - 05:31 AM.

[Bront]

Kain Thul, on 16 September 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

50/50 can't be the goal. Right now all the noobs are going to be in IS mechs because its doubtful they've thrown out the cash for Clan mechs.

There were clan trials available as well. 3 of them in fact.

[Procyon Alpha]

I think you are missing a point all the top teams and most players will gravitate to the side that has any advantage. So this will leave the IS with either Roll Players or people who are new and can not afford the clan mechs. Does anyone else see that this top heavy model is prone to fail in CW. If all the top comp teams are going to go Clan because there is an advantage, how is that going to work out for everyone else. The win at all cost model is going to be a bigger issue. A weighted system or something needs to be placed into CW.
I don't think you are going to ever balance the clans out with their weapons weighing less and being more potent in a 12 v 12 game. I know PGI is looking for different but balanced, but in that model the weapons would have to be half as potent. I don't think anyone wants to hear the yelling on the forums that would cause. I am interested how this is going to play out, but so far I just don't see it. When I see a top comp team play IS mechs again on a regular basis, there might be a good balance. It's going to be a job for PGI, but if they don't CW is going to be a flop.

[Taifune]

What about the second test that targets the European prime time? Maybe not for too long, but 2-3 hours... Some of us are really eager to give it a shot... or two