211 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Kiiyor, on 17 September 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Well, the clans really are held up by the Triumvirate (well, quad) of Awesome: the DireWhale, Crow, Wolf and WarHawk.

I think one of the biggest issues is their top end, as most matches see the Clans packing far more tonnage into their heavies and Assaults.

I wouldn't worry too much about less Clan players dropping through. I know may who would still relish the opportunity to splatter 'Sphere mechs all over the landscape. If the queues don't have enough Clans, it just falls back to IS vs IS anyways, which is refreshing.

maybe refreshing but not helping to gather some good and correct data for the C vs IS balance status.

[Murphy7]

Try it again in with mixed groups (Lance drops) and 12 v 12's, so organization and groups come into play as well.

Inner Sphere games with team chat active were far more successful than those without - one sided conversations letting people know what was where when only gets you so far.


I am getting a bit of an ice cream headache with the logic behind "Clan tech is better, so it needs to stay that way" added to "Clan players ELO is better, that's why they win, not tech" getting punched out in the same messages. I know better than its all one or the other, but seriously people this reads as:

I play better and deserve better tech so that I continue to win; fails should stay IS with their inferior tech becuase they are inferior so I can continue to win.

[AThousandD]

Frankly, dear, I don't give a damn.

I say turn it on. Forever. It just feels better not feeling inferior in an IS mech, but one among equals. Just don't worry whether it's a win or loss, keep your eyes on the prize: that next clan kill. That's all.

If it drives people away because they have some silly idea of fun being equally available to all, then so be it. Fun is meant for those who can afford it.

[Hoax415]

Abivard, on 16 September 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

If you take away clan mechs ability to equip Arty or airstrike that would help balance the two factions and at the same time help immersion, after all Arty and Air are dishonorable to real clanner's.

What happened to this idea? I thought it was going in a long time ago but I saw plenty of red smoke deployed by the Clan side during the test.

Kiiyor, on 16 September 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

[great poster]

Yes after this quirk pass we 100% need to run a challenge where wins are the criteria for getting the reward and we need to run it in the group queue with IS v Clan turned on.

To negate any and all crying you could run a solo queue challenge that was just normal mixed teams so players who hate grouping or whatever can earn the same cbill bonus while avoiding grouping and CvIS.

We very badly need to see if using organized teams that are trying much harder to win boosts the clan winrate or lowers it. That is an incredibly important question that at this time is not answered.

DV McKenna, on 17 September 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

For me the problem lies in the players.

The IS mechs, have a wide variety of choice, and alot of IS mechs that are popular are downright terrible and people bring downright terrible builds on them ( Raven 2X's, Quickdraws, Thunderbolts to name a few) some people even manage to bring horrific Jagermech builds

I don't disagree with this. After pack2 comes out and a few more trials and cbill versions this factor will be gone to an extent.

But its also a clear illustration of how ****** 3/3/3/3 is. If players bring the mech they want to pilot they are often hurting their team's chances of winning. A Locust no matter how many quirks you give it SHOULD NOT be as powerful as a Raven or Jenner or Firestarter. Those extra tons are meant to matter. The issue isn't with the Locust's power level its that taking an under-powered light doesn't give your team anything.

We need a system where 3 100-ton mechs, 3 75-ton mechs, 3 55-ton mechs and 3 35-ton mechs IS NOT POSSIBLE. We need team tonnage limits and we need them yesterday. Dragons and Locusts and Awesomes should be something serious tryhard teams actually consider running from time to time because it lets them get heavier elsewhere in their roster.

Yeshua Kerensky, on 17 September 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

I don't think you are going to ever balance the clans out with their weapons weighing less and being more potent in a 12 v 12 game. I know PGI is looking for different but balanced, but in that model the weapons would have to be half as potent. I don't think anyone wants to hear the yelling on the forums that would cause.

I agree with this sentiment. Ever since 10v12 was canned I've been saying that Clan players do not realize just how nerfed Clan mechs need to be in order to balance 1:1 for 12v12.

There is a lot of head in sand in this community over what 1:1 balance looks like.

You can find all these threads claiming the summoner is too weak or the adder or the nova.

Those mechs are around the power level ALL clan mechs should be at. That is how powerful they need to be to balance 12v12.

I will tell you right now that if you forced clans to play 12v12 with 0 TBR, DWF or SCR. Against equal tonnage IS teams we would get the closest to 50/50 winrate we've ever seen.

If you let IS take 100/70/55/35 team comps it would probably favor the IS similar to how this test did because without equal tonnage its a big problem.

Speaking of which can we please get the average tonnage on IS and Clan side of these 200+ matches and if tonnage differences seemed to impact results?

Edited by Hoax415, 17 September 2014 - 07:47 AM.

[Kain Demos]

Bront, on 17 September 2014 - 05:51 AM, said:

There were clan trials available as well. 3 of them in fact.

At least half the mechs were the "invasion" versions in the matches I was in. I doubt very much that there were anywhere near the number of new players on the clan teams as the IS teams.

Edited by Kain Thul, 17 September 2014 - 08:00 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Hoax415, on 17 September 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

I don't disagree with this. After pack2 comes out and a few more trials and cbill versions this factor will be gone to an extent.

But its also a clear illustration of how ****** 3/3/3/3 is. If players bring the mech they want to pilot they are often hurting their team's chances of winning. A Locust no matter how many quirks you give it SHOULD NOT be as powerful as a Raven or Jenner or Firestarter. Those extra tons are meant to matter. The issue isn't with the Locust's power level its that taking an under-powered light doesn't give your team anything.

We need a system where 3 100-ton mechs, 3 75-ton mechs, 3 55-ton mechs and 3 35-ton mechs IS NOT POSSIBLE. We need team tonnage limits and we need them yesterday. Dragons and Locusts and Awesomes should be something serious tryhard teams actually consider running from time to time because it lets them get heavier elsewhere in their roster.

I agree with tonnage limits, i played MW4 under such a system for many years. Is it possible to game a tonnage limit system ofc it is, any system is game-able, but if you want people to drop in heavies that aren't just Timberwolves or Mediums that aren't Stormcrow's then tonnage is the way to go.

[Hoax415]

It doesn't matter if people can game it. As long as there are several team comps that all game it using different mech combinations. That would still be more variety than you will see develop in CW when people are really trying to win. We might have *gasp* an actual functioning metagame with a variety of team building theories as to what the most powerful mech(s) for their tonnage are. What the best trade offs to make are. etc.

Even better! It dovetails nicely into CW setting different weight limits on different planets. What about a planet where the average weight available to the team is 55 tons? All lights and mediums ho! What about a mech factory planet where the weight limit is very high? All extra big and stompy robots. Variety. Its nice. What's the point of all the chassis in the IS stable if using so many of them hurts your chances to win.

Imagine how CW pugs are going to go. People are going to be critiquing their teammates mech choices, their builds, telling them to play better stuff so their side can win.

With the weight class 3/3/3/3 system that means anyone who shows up in something outside of 100/75/55 ESPECIALLY on clan is going to take **** if they don't outperform their machine.

Edited by Hoax415, 17 September 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Hoax415, on 17 September 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

It doesn't matter if people can game it. As long as there are several team comps that all game it using different mech combinations. That would still be more variety than you will see develop in CW when people are really trying to win. We might have *gasp* an actual functioning metagame with a variety of team building theories as to what the most powerful mech(s) for their tonnage are. What the best trade offs to make are. etc.

Even better! It dovetails nicely into CW setting different weight limits on different planets. What about a planet where the average weight available to the team is 55 tons? All lights and mediums ho! What about a mech factory planet where the weight limit is very high? All extra big and stompy robots. Variety. Its nice. What's the point of all the chassis in the IS stable if using so many of them hurts your chances to win.

Imagine how CW pugs are going to go. People are going to be critiquing their teammates mech choices, their builds, telling them to play better stuff so their side can win.

With the weight class 3/3/3/3 system that means anyone who shows up in something outside of 100/75/55 ESPECIALLY on clan is going to take **** if they don't outperform their machine.

You won't find any disagreement from me. As i say tonnage is how i gamed in MW 4 for years, and yes everyone gravitated to their favoured set drop decks at tonnage points, but people broke molds over time as new weapons etc were added and chassis found new life.

I guess tonnage tho, would require a rethink on MM, as people would have to group into a lobby and fit around the tonnage limit (wasn't a problem in MW4)

Edited by DV McKenna, 17 September 2014 - 08:14 AM.

[Kael Posavatz]

I do not know how much help it is, but last night the drops I was in were mostly decided by inferior tactics on the part of one team or another. Getting strung out, or not bringing your team's weight of metal to bear effectively is a deficiency in skill, not a sign of one side's equipment being superior over the other.

Towards the end many of the active units on both sides were conducting synch-drops into the solo queue. At first by sheer happenstance given the vagaries of the matchmaker (although with more frequency than was wont to occur before the IS/Clan filter was applied) but later more deliberately, or so I suspect. When both sides had a core unit with comms--be it however small--to lead them, the matches were decided by a much more narrow margin than the 'two dozen people groping around in the dark'.

Also there is an undeniable psychological factor. I have no hard data to support it, of course, but my experience of dropping into the solo queue is that some, potentially many, players running IS 'mechs instinctively look for Clan Mechs to anchor their attack/defense/whatever-the-heck-they-decide-to-do, in much the same way that rebar is used to strengthen concrete.

Lastly, it is unfortunate, but many do not bother to read the forums. As a result last night came as a rude and unpleasant shock rather than viewed as the opportunity it was.

[AztecD]

i was unaware that the ISvsClan was turned on, i started to wonder why the MM dropped me into groups then i noticed that it was all Clans on one side.

Clan Range is very cool, and you cant just go head on to the ball of death they normally run, those damm ecm lights protect them very good.

But with arty/uav i was in a few drops where clans where outmatched, and add a few IS assault pilots with some balls to lead the charge, we did stomp the clanners on several matches.

It is a very good test and im actually looking forward to CW after this

[Jody Von Jedi]

DV McKenna, on 17 September 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

For me the problem lies in the players.

The IS mechs, have a wide variety of choice, and alot of IS mechs that are popular are downright terrible and people bring downright terrible builds on them ( Raven 2X's, Quickdraws, Thunderbolts to name a few) some people even manage to bring horrific Jagermech builds

The clans on the other hand are more streamlined, and it's hard to bring a terrible build (sans 1-2 chassis) and are limited on chassis selection so it's skewed from the very beginning.

Hey, don't be bashing my Quickdraws dude.

It is the preferred ride of Jedi across the galaxy.

[Bront]

Russ Bullock, on 16 September 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Okay I think I am going to bring the test down early at 6pm, we did manage to get some good test data - basically enough.

A few were upset about the test I guess railroading their night with matches that are unfair. A misjudgetment on my part I suppose, I thought everyone would love it. Perhaps most did.

Anyhow going to edit the original post and have the guys bring it down in 20 minutes.

Run a special challenge weekend with the following setup (And yes, I'm not 100% sure this is technically possible, but it would help):
1) Challenges completed when playing in Clan vs IS (Or IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan, don't penalize people if the MM can't make a Clan vs IS match).

2) Challenge uses a similar point system to the last lance challenge other than also awarding 1 point per 100 damage, 1 point per component destruction, 1 point for Counter-ECM, and 2 points for capture assist. Feel free to raise the goals a bit as a result (From 300/550/950 to 350/600/1000 or 400/700/1100 would be my suggestions, or even offer a reward every 400 points earned, and make at least the first one 7 days premium time. Heck, make the top rewards a free IS and Clan mech and throw out a fairly high point target (2000 points))

3) Matches are pure IS vs Clans (or overflow as noted as above) for all group or solo drops with the exception of groups dropping with mixed units, who would drop separately (For folks who don't want to participate).

4) All Wave1 Clan Mechs go on Trial, as do all IS Champions, so new players can play in any mech, and experienced players can try either side if they want.

That should give you a long weekend of voluntary participants. No one loses any Premium Time since they're reimbursed at the base level, plenty of rewards to make up for any lost earnings if one side is overpowering in general, you get team samples as well as PUG samples to give you a different cross section of data, and you're hailed as an awesome company for giving out cool stuff and running a great event in the name of science data collection!

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Jody Von Jedi, on 17 September 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

Hey, don't be bashing my Quickdraws dude.

It is the preferred ride of Jedi across the galaxy.

There are always outliers , what i mean is that by and large people bring the most bizzare and rubbish configs on IS mechs when compared to the standardisation of clan mechs loadouts

[Project_Mercy]

DV McKenna, on 17 September 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

I agree with tonnage limits, i played MW4 under such a system for many years. Is it possible to game a tonnage limit system ofc it is, any system is game-able, but if you want people to drop in heavies that aren't just Timberwolves or Mediums that aren't Stormcrow's then tonnage is the way to go.

Tonnage is really hard to do, you may remember we had this argument all through beta also.

The Quirk system really is a great idea, because it helps balance things. It's unfortunate that it's ALSO being used to try to balance IS to Clan, because now all the "quirks" the omnimechs get are mediocre in comparison and then linked to their omnipod complement, thereby increasing the restrictions on the system. It's almost ironic that the most restrictive mechs in the game for loadout are omnimechs. Some of the clan mechs need Quirk balancing just like the IS mechs do to make them something other than an oddity, like the Thor.

And just to reitterate, the Clan lights are seriously inferior to the IS lights for this reason. 100km/h is just not a max speed a light should ever have. This is exacerbated by the fact that so many of the IS lights have redonculously small hit boxes that practically make them invincible. Clan lights are just lightly-armored and armed mediums.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 17 September 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 17 September 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Tonnage is really hard to do, you may remember we had this argument all through beta also.

The Quirk system really is a great idea, because it helps balance things. It's unfortunate that it's ALSO being used to try to balance IS to Clan, because now all the "quirks" the omnimechs get are mediocre in comparison and then linked to their omnipod complement, thereby increasing the restrictions on the system. It's almost ironic that the most restrictive mechs in the game for loadout are omnimechs. Some of the clan mechs need Quirk balancing just like the IS mechs do to make them something other than an oddity, like the Thor.

And just to reitterate, the Clan lights are seriously inferior to the IS lights for this reason. 100km/h is just not a max speed a light should ever have. This is exacerbated by the fact that so many of the IS lights have redonculously small hit boxes that practically make them invincible.

Tonnage isn't hard to do, the problem with tonnage and why people resist it, is because it means they have to fit within a system and they can't just que up in their Direwolf all day long.

[Elizander]

IS Quirking is +Fun

Some slight adjustments to clan XLs should be okay. A little more heat on the scale can't be too bad.

[Jody Von Jedi]

DV McKenna, on 17 September 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

There are always outliers , what i mean is that by and large people bring the most bizzare and rubbish configs on IS mechs when compared to the standardisation of clan mechs loadouts

I agree, there are some bizarre loadouts out there. I try to offer some helpful suggestions when I encounter the inexperienced players in those sorts of builds without being insulting. I might ask them a question about it and then offer some constructive criticism.

Until all of the clan mechs in wave 1 are released for C-bills, the IS will continue to see the majority of the new recruits. Although having Clans available as trials helps out a lot. I think once wave 2 hits, they'll be more of an equalizing as new players will have a better selection of Clan mechs available for C-bills.

Other MMOs like Star Trek Online offer a player a choice when they register which side they're going to play for. If they choose, for example, Starfleet, then they have a character that uses Starfleet tech. If they choose Klingon, they they get Kingon tech. In fact, in the account you can have both a Starfleet character and a Klingon character.

If there was ever a reboot to MW:O perhaps it would be good to give the player the option to decide which side they're going to play for. If they choose IS, then they can't purchase or pilot Clan mechs, and vice versa.

Or even better, allow the account owner to have a sub account under the main account. When you log in, you have a choice to play your IS account or your Clan account. All of the mechs you own would still be there, but just separated into sub-accounts that share C-bills and MC, but just separate the tech.

Jody

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Jody Von Jedi, on 17 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

I agree, there are some bizarre loadouts out there. I try to offer some helpful suggestions when I encounter the inexperienced players in those sorts of builds without being insulting. I might ask them a question about it and then offer some constructive criticism.

Until all of the clan mechs in wave 1 are released for C-bills, the IS will continue to see the majority of the new recruits. Although having Clans available as trials helps out a lot. I think once wave 2 hits, they'll be more of an equalizing as new players will have a better selection of Clan mechs available for C-bills.

Other MMOs like Star Trek Online offer a player a choice when they register which side they're going to play for. If they choose, for example, Starfleet, then they have a character that uses Starfleet tech. If they choose Klingon, they they get Kingon tech. In fact, in the account you can have both a Starfleet character and a Klingon character.

If there was ever a reboot to MW:O perhaps it would be good to give the player the option to decide which side they're going to play for. If they choose IS, then they can't purchase or pilot Clan mechs, and vice versa.

Or even better, allow the account owner to have a sub account under the main account. When you log in, you have a choice to play your IS account or your Clan account. All of the mechs you own would still be there, but just separated into sub-accounts that share C-bills and MC, but just separate the tech.

Jody

Like have Avatars instead of accounts....

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Make Stars and make Clan vs IS 10 v 12

Whoa look at that, its balanced now

[Clydewinder]

Hoax415, on 17 September 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

With the weight class 3/3/3/3 system that means anyone who shows up in something outside of 100/75/55 ESPECIALLY on clan is going to take **** if they don't outperform their machine.

This.