229 replies to this topic

[Dark DeLaurel]

It works well for World of Tanks and if put back i n for MW:O should work well here also. It just needed the costs adjusted, in WoT I had matches where Ive lost moeny even with a premium account, but i fired off a crapton of rounds (I mean like 40 out of 50, I was new stop judging me! ). Those matches though are far and few between even with losses and not having premium time, it is all about costs and how they come to them.

[Quxudica]

Dark DeLaurel, on 16 September 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

It works well for World of Tanks and if put back i n for MW:O should work well here also. It just needed the costs adjusted, in WoT I had matches where Ive lost moeny even with a premium account, but i fired off a crapton of rounds (I mean like 40 out of 50, I was new stop judging me! ). Those matches though are far and few between even with losses and not having premium time, it is all about costs and how they come to them.

It isn't just costs, it's about game progression. Progression in MWO is already very slow from the perspective of players that don't have massive amounts of free time (in otherwords, most normal people), adding a mechanic that only slows it down for debatable and subjective benefits (the avergae person isn't going to care about the immersion factor) is not likely to be conducive to a good gaming experience for them.

If you make 120,000 in every match and every match is eight minutes long you are making less than 3 million in three hours of play assuming no breaks. That's enough for what? a light mech with stock loadout and no upgrades? The average per match earning for a typical player is probably under 120k (maybe closer to 90-100k) and most people aren't going to have three solid hours of gaming. adding in a mechanic that can seriously cut into those earnings even further is going to effectively put a large portion of mech content out of reach of the typical person. This will only lead to three things: Players quitting in frustration, players suicide grinding themselves or using bots, and a major negative impact on build variety.

There's also the dangerous idea that repair and rearm costs can be used to "balance" weapons and equipment. This isn't a good idea, balance should be done based on effectiveness in relation to their use in game and not an arbitrary upkeep price outside of game. Otherwise you end up in a situation where overpowered equipment can be used without penalty by those who, either through paying money for boosts or running in highly coordinated premades, can simply ignore the costs while everyone else suffers the repercussions of the imbalances in game.

[theta123]

I have 33 mechs, of wich 7 of them have an XL engine

None of my 11 battlemasters have Endo steel, only 5 have XL engines.


So yeah
No lets keep the current economy

[Dark DeLaurel]

Quxudica, on 16 September 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

It isn't just costs, it's about game progression. Progression in MWO is already very slow from the perspective of players that don't have massive amounts of free time (in otherwords, most normal people), adding a mechanic that only slows it down for debatable and subjective benefits (the avergae person isn't going to care about the immersion factor) is not likely to be conducive to a good gaming experience for them.

If you make 120,000 in every match and every match is eight minutes long you are making less than 3 million in three hours of play assuming no breaks. That's enough for what? a light mech with stock loadout and no upgrades? The average per match earning for a typical player is probably under 120k (maybe closer to 90-100k) and most people aren't going to have three solid hours of gaming. adding in a mechanic that can seriously cut into those earnings even further is going to effectively put a large portion of mech content out of reach of the typical person. This will only lead to three things: Players quitting in frustration, players suicide grinding themselves or using bots, and a major negative impact on build variety.

There's also the dangerous idea that repair and rearm costs can be used to "balance" weapons and equipment. This isn't a good idea, balance should be done based on effectiveness in relation to their use in game and not an arbitrary upkeep price outside of game. Otherwise you end up in a situation where overpowered equipment can be used without penalty by those who, either through paying money for boosts or running in highly coordinated premades, can simply ignore the costs while everyone else suffers the repercussions of the imbalances in game.

You have not played WoT then (try it, its fun). If you think MWO is a grind, try grinding out 64, 500 XP to unlock the next tank once you are at tier six, plus roughly 10, 000 XP just to get the tank Elited out before getting that next tank. You can average 1000 XP on a good game with no premium. Then there is the money aspect, man is crap expensive in WoT, and it is a damn slow grind and for some tanks which are just as much as lemons as the lolcust if not worse (tier four scout in a tier six game that gets one shot killed until it unlocks its top tier engine sucks).

RnR will never replace weapons balance, that is an invalid statement. People who make that statement don't quite know the game mechanics.

[Quxudica]

Dark DeLaurel, on 17 September 2014 - 12:06 AM, said:

RnR will never replace weapons balance, that is an invalid statement. People who make that statement don't quite know the game mechanics.

It's not an invalid statement, it was exactly what was happening when RnR was first introduced. Lots of people were using upkeep costs as elements in balance debates for everything from entire mechs to individual parts. Even this threads OP has elements of it, suggesting that his perceived overabundance of XL Engines should be balanced by giving them expensive upkeep costs (when in reality these are already balanced by their inherent functionality). There's really no way for an RnR system, with costs that aren't so low as to be pointless, to not affect the balancing process.

No I haven't played WoT. I lost any of my small interest in it around the time of the whole gold ammo debacle, it's reputed community issues and massive grindfest also are not overly appealing to me. WoT, while obviously successful, to me seems like the perfect example of a great game being a shadow of what it should and could be by using the F2P model.

I'm no stranger to grind centric games, I played an asian MMORPG for several years that required hours of grinding monsters with a group of six people to level up - and death meant lost experience and potentially lost levels and unusable gear (not to mention having to return to a home point that might be 30 minutes or more away from your current location if you didn't get resuscitated). Grind doesn't make a game good however and other games having more grind doesn't negate it as a criticism of MWO nor a valid concern when talking about mechanics that will increase it.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

R&R needs to make a return for Community Warfare. In some form or another that matters.

Hell, frankly, CW needs to be a completely different Economy than the one we work on currently. Why?

Well let's think, if everyone dropped in with all the elited mechs we already have, then nothing matters. There's literally no point to fight over anything, because we already have all this cash banked and the like.
"But Flash... what about those of us who bought mech packs and paid for content?! That leaves us out right?"

Clearly you'd have access to any mechs you have bought for real world cash. Essentially CW should be a hard reboot of the economy. [tracked seperately] Everyone starts with say, 2.0million c-bills[or maybe even start us out with what an average new player would get after their cadet bonus at a 50/50 win loss ratio] and all their mech packs that they have bought[if they have bought any] this includes any hero mechs, or mechs bought for MC. While this does cause some disparity for new players coming into CW, CW should be seen as the big boys playground essentially. It's what ammounts to planetary league play just governed by the creators of the game instead of by a player run league.

So now we have the following

A new Economy [save for what's in the unit coffers, may as well allow that to come over or nothing would get done]
a reworked Repair/Rearm system
Fresh, new mechs that are starting out with no upgrades.

This puts everyone on a relatively level playing field with their basic, stock pack/hero mechs. This allows for dynamic growth of units, and of players in a new environment where the stakes matter.

At the very least, something like this should be run for a few months, see if it catches on. I personally, would rather have my victory's mean more than just a simple change in a map.

[Karl Streiger]

No not another sub account - >
first it would be still a grind, and RnR would only slow down the rating you earn new mechs.
second reason - players that play 24/7 will get better tech - while other players will need more time
third - > result same reason why RnR is bad.

Alternative: another "logistic" account
Based on "planets" to fight on, or a logistic account that is "linked" to your Mech - if you spend all logistic points of your Mech - you need to drop with a inferior build - with empty ammo bin (play victim - to get more battles - and to refill you logistic account)

a task force for a battle may have a random "account" of logistic points - this logistic points can be refilled by time and salvage (IS vs IS - Clan vs Clan)
If you use expensive units with tons of ammunition - it may happen that you loose the war - even if you won almost all battles.

For example - team 1 uses LRM and AC Bombs - with advanced technology - while team 2 uses only los tech mechs.

First Battle Team 1 win 12:2
Second Battle Team 1 win 12:3
(at this time the replacement of the killed Mechs and the repair and rearm costs may - already have removed all logistic points for Team 1)
Team 2 - almost Los Tech Commandos and Centurions
- while they have to replace after each battle 24 Mechs they still have enough logistic points to play the game two or three times.
so third battle -
Team 1 used the last ammo - some were dry already - 12:7
fourth battle
0:12
fifth battle
0:12
....team 1 is not able to fight anymore.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 September 2014 - 01:54 AM.

[Eiki]

I think that they should either reintroduce R&R, or have respawning game modes. YOur tonnage can effect your respawn time.

[Kmieciu]

The only people that liked R&R in closed beta were the ones who gamed the system. Like myself.

First I discovered that engine destruction is meaningless because it does not kill you (still doesn't BTW) so you didn't have to repair your XL engine. As for ammo it was pretty easy to abuse the 50% free reloads by taking double the amount you need. In fact the best money earner was the 3xLRM15 Atlas. I only repaired the CT and ST that contained the launchers. Thanks to the 8manvsPUG matchmaking my KDR was above 6.

I remember earning huge sums of money back then, enough to buy multiple mechs between wipes. It was beneficial for the development of the game, because you could beta-test all the chassis in a short time. Right now I see no place for it in MWO.

Although we all could use some positive reinforcement with c-bill bonuses for using lowtech (STD, armor, internals, or even stock mechs)

Edited by Kmieciu, 17 September 2014 - 02:10 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Kmieciu, on 17 September 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

Although we all could use some positive reinforcement with c-bill bonuses for using lowtech (STD, armor, internals, or even stock mechs)

Oh - that is a good idea....simple and smart - if you gimp yourself by not using the best tech - you get a compensation
(you get payed for - that somebody is happy because he did shot you)

[ReguIus]

R&R could be implemented in an entirely separate economy. For example, PGI could do this in CW if they wanted to.

Edited by Kurbutti, 17 September 2014 - 02:23 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Karl Streiger, on 17 September 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

Oh - that is a good idea....simple and smart - if you gimp yourself by not using the best tech - you get a compensation
(you get payed for - that somebody is happy because he did shot you)

Yeah, I'm gonna game that system too by using a stock Nova Prime :-)

[Lupin]

R&R teachs players that this is not an arcade game and to look after your equiptment.

Style of game play very different when you know you have to pay for what you break. Learning curve has always been high for this game.

Main problem with old system I seem to remember was ammo cost (Mainly for LRM), so would this also help with LRM over use?

Two suggested ways of using repair in the future:

Under CW contract to house (This was used in Mechforce not sure about TT) where you have to pay for your repairs or part of the repairs are paid for by contact.
Pro player mode (Option) more XP and Cbills but you have to pay for repair.

[Quxudica]

Lupin, on 17 September 2014 - 02:22 AM, said:

R&R teachs players that this is not an arcade game and to look after your equiptment.

Style of game play very different when you know you have to pay for what you break. Learning curve has always been high for this game.

Main problem with old system I seem to remember was ammo cost (Mainly for LRM), so would this also help with LRM over use?

Two suggested ways of using repair in the future:

Under CW contract to house (This was used in Mechforce not sure about TT) where you have to pay for your repairs or part of the repairs are paid for by contact.
Pro player mode (Option) more XP and Cbills but you have to pay for repair.

In theory this is true, in reality all it does is diminish build variety even further than the meta does now, encourage suicide grinding, encourage exploitation of the system (builds never rearming using the free reload by taking more ammo than needed initially, not repairing the engine, not repairing a grinding mech at all) and penalize players with limited time or who pug exclusively. The result is nothing beneficial, some players will look for any way to avoid it, others will simply quit out of frustration.

[beerandasmoke]

It would be the balance they are looking for in CW. Otherwise clanmechs are going to end up with another round of unneeded nerfs after the leet teams roflstomp everyone in CW. There has to be some kind of metric there to keep them from running a direwolf, timberwolf, stormcrow, ecm clanlight, team time after time. R&R is the only way to prevent that combined with a free repair mechanic after x amount of days if you cant or wont pay. Sort of like tanklocking in WOT. Yes the space billionaires wont mind, but even they would feel the pinch if the clan were to get in an all out brawl with someone for a couple of months with multiple battles a night.

Otherwise its more rounds of nerfs attempting to find some kind of balance between IS and CL which upsets everyone.

Also have planets with mech factories speed up free repairs and lower repair costs. Sit back and watch the wars erupt. Would be pretty cool strategically kinda like the goldpots in WOT.

Edited by beerandasmoke, 17 September 2014 - 02:43 AM.

[Quxudica]

beerandasmoke, on 17 September 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

It would be the balance they are looking for in CW. Otherwise clanmechs are going to end up with another round of unneeded nerfs after the leet teams roflstomp everyone in CW. There has to be some kind of metric there to keep them from running a direwolf, timberwolf, stormcrow, ecm clanlight, team time after time. R&R is the only way to prevent that combined with a free repair mechanic after x amount of days if you cant or wont pay. Sort of like tanklocking in WOT. Yes the space billionaires wont mind, but even they would feel the pinch if the clan were to get in an all out brawl with someone for a couple of months with multiple battles a night.

Otherwise its more rounds of nerfs attempting to find some kind of balance between IS and CL which upsets everyone.

Also have planets with mech factories speed up free repairs and lower repair costs. Sit back and watch the wars erupt. Would be pretty cool strategically kinda like the goldpots in WOT.

Thing is if RnR is heavy enough to effect "leet teams" it's going to have an even more drastic effect on everyone else, ultimately this solves nothing.

[Stonefalcon]

Coming onto almost two years ago I posted the very same thing.

http://mwomercs.com/...ould-it-return/

It was a pretty strong 75% for yes to bring back R&R.

I still strongly support R&R and think it should return.

[Alistair Winter]

99.9% of the arguments against R&R are based on the argument that because it was not properly implemented the first time around, it's basically impossible. (That's an entirely scientific statistic, before you make any snarky comments about statistics on the internet.) There's probably a thousand different ways to implement R&R, and we've only seen one or two.

Personally, I'd like to see R&R implemented for CW matches. And leave it out for random quick matches. People who want something closer to the Battletech experience, with repairs, salvage, mech restrictions, etc. can get what they want. People who just want some fun matches with mixed inner sphere and clan tech and less focus on immersion can get what they want. Everybody wins.

aniviron, on 16 September 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

You know what wasn't awesome though? Being punished by the game because I was poor.

Uhm, yeah, that's still going on. And being punished by the game because you're new. And if you're a good new player in a bad mech, God help you. Matchmaker has no time for your shenanigans.

Whether you're earning less money than good players, or earning almost the same but given greater expenses, makes no difference. But most people just intuitively have a problem with this sort of "punishment". It's basic human psychology, and there are plenty of studies documenting it. People feel better about a 10 dollar reward than a 20 dollar reward with a 10 dollar tax.

[beerandasmoke]

Quxudica, on 17 September 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

Thing is if RnR is heavy enough to effect "leet teams" it's going to have an even more drastic effect on everyone else, ultimately this solves nothing.

If those leet teams are running expensive clanmechs and get jumped by a couple of IS clans whos only intent is to destroy and lock their mechs what then? IS repair cost will be half what clan is allowing them to grind them slowly down draining funds and locking mechs even if they are losing. Thats strategy man and something i would like too see.

Edited by beerandasmoke, 17 September 2014 - 02:52 AM.

[Daneiel]

aniviron, on 16 September 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Am I the only one who remembers what closed beta was like? Who doesn't have a rose-tinted neurohelmet?

Okay, so first off: R&R is a great concept from an immersion standpoint. That's awesome. It felt great that actions had consequences, and that after a match, I would be able to go through and see exactly what those consequences were. It made the game feel much more 'real,' (not real as in real life, fools) and it made it feel like a Mechwarrior game. That was awesome.

You know what wasn't awesome though? Being punished by the game because I was poor. Half my matches my armor was at the free 75%. Almost all of them I was at 0% internals. All my builds had ammo counts based on not being able to rearm, and using the free 50% you got. My teammates weren't too pleased with me either, but ****, it takes forever to get new mechs and engines, so they could go stuff it. R&R also promotes suiciding or "suiciding" into the enemy team so you can take as little damage as possible during a match you know you're going to lose. Charlie lance decided that no guys they can totally hold off the enemy team alone in conquest? Might as well overheat now, and save yourself the huge repair bill!

Seriously, R&R promoted some terrible game mechanics. People at the bottom get punished, and people where I am now don't care. Oh, I would lose money for running in a clan mech? How terrible, my 260m cbill stack will be gone in no time! Haha, just kidding, I can ride that to a 90% winrate for years if some weapons are only balanced because they're expensive to use.

The idea of R&R is great. But you'd be hard-pressed to come up with an implementation of it that doesn't disproportionally hurt new and poor players. The only thing that even comes close is having an R&R system where either your faction alignment or merc corp foots the bill; presumably a percentage of your winnings go to your house/clan if you're not in a corp, and you would be expected to donate to your merc corp's coffers if you were a part of one. These have the advantage of letting the rich players absorb some of the cost for their newer buddies, and it would mean that you wouldn't see players intentionally getting destroyed in the most cost-efficient way possible as soon as the match's outcome became clear. The downside is that if someone is footing the bill for you and the repairs are automatic, why even have it at that point? Then you get some of the inconvenience, and none of the immersion.

Sorry i am not agree - to abuse the mech lab is not excuse .I was in the same beta as you and i also run a custom build - centurion - and i made money - why you didn't ???? Because you over customise your mech - that why we have now configs that make me want to puke - to start with gauss cats to meta wolfs - abominations - the mechs turned to nothing more then a bunch of hardpoints .One thing is to improve the efficiency other is to abuse the game (sorry min/max players - every time some of you touch a game you break it ) . R&R is the one of the keys to keep everything in normal parameters .