229 replies to this topic

[Blakkstar]

That ship has sailed in this game. R&R is a perfectly valid game mechanic, but the entire in-game (c-bills) and real-world (MC) economy, as well as access to Mechs and equipment has to be based around it. It is not in MWO, and would cause more problems than it would solve at this point.

As far as the OP, grinding to get all the upgraded goodies is the point of playing. Presumably the dynamic of this game will be: grind in Pugs (or plunk down cash to get there faster) to gain an advantage in CW.

The big disadvantage the current system creates is that the game is monetized by exclusivity, which will always be pay-to-win in the short term. Sure the Timber Wolf will eventually be available for c-bills, but that won't do you any good while you get stomped flat by them in CW in the meantime. Then once it is, the Night Gyr will only be available for MC (and be better than the Timber Wolf so people buy it), etc, etc, etc.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mercules, on 17 September 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

R&R taught people who thought they were skilled at the game how bad they actually were. They might be good at getting kills with the most tweaked out mech you can imagine filled to the gills with expensive ammo... but they couldn't figure out how to do damage to the other guy without taking that much in return.


Right now the idea is, "There is one mech left... so what if I lose that whole torso and arm... I'll get the kill." With R&R you would sometimes see a heavily wounded team a bit more hesitant in engaging a mostly fresh last man standing mech because while they will kill him... at what cost to themselves?


Repair and Rearm is abbreviated the same as Risk and Reward. That is really what is missing from MWO... there is no risk and hardly any reward. What you are typically rewarded for has nothing to do with good tactics from a combat perspective.

through out CB I made money 90% of the time in an Atlas built just like an Archer, with more armor and 11 tons of ammo! Had no XL, Endo or Ferro and I earned a profit nearly every match though every rendition of R&R and wax & wain economy. I always chose full repairs and never gamed the 75% free repair system... Had 10mil in the bank. R&R did nothing but made you play a thinking mans Game. You don't need 40 Mechs to play the game... Heck we don't need more than 4. Heck I had a blast playing an Atlas for almost 4-5 full months 4-6 hours(or more) a night every night.

Never once was R&R a problem. Now if I made bad choices on what tech to bring I could have lost my shirt every match, instead I used sensible equipment and had a 2.8 KDR.

Now I can use whatever tech I want and have a KDR of 0.39. Funny thing is, the game is just as fun now, as it was then, as long as I am on Comms!

[Bigbacon]

Mercules, on 17 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

This is a myth I see brought out a lot. Not every game has to be accessible to all players. There are more than enough middle aged nostalgic Mechwarrior/Battletech fans with disposable income willing to put money into the game. I know of 4 of them personally that have left because of "making the game more accessible" instead of making a good Mechwarrior game and/or combat sim.

From a business perspective, the goal is to make money, so they need to have it open and accessible to as many people as they can unless those who really want the game are prepared to keep paying a lot more money on a regular basis. Games like these don't survive on small communities.

[EvilCow]

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

They can't really be separated. Solo players will be fighting in CW, after all. I have too many mechs that I have no issue dropping in. Even if the system were highly punitive, I wouldn't be bothered by it in either queue regardless. Everyone doesn't have that luxury though, so I can't see it coming back. The whine on the forums was epic when it was in.

Easy solution, mechs are automatically dropped repaired and rearmed in the pug queue. Damage would be a CW-only attribute, this is the kind of depth the game requires.

[Darian DelFord]

Mercules, on 17 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

This is a myth I see brought out a lot. Not every game has to be accessible to all players. There are more than enough middle aged nostalgic Mechwarrior/Battletech fans with disposable income willing to put money into the game. I know of 4 of them personally that have left because of "making the game more accessible" instead of making a good Mechwarrior game and/or combat sim.

I am one of those middle aged men with a disposable income :> Only reason I am still here is because its Mechwarrior and I still remember the Original Mechwarrior in 1989. However what people do not realzie is there was another BT game before that called The Crescents Hawk Inception 1988. Man the hours I spent on that game. I would leave my computer on all night just to earn more C-bills through Comstar (Stock Market) to be able to buy more mechs.!!

My hope is PGI gets their arse in gear and improve this game. I am tired of the little teeny boppers whining that everything needs to be fair an even. This is Mechwarrior, get over it!

Edited by Darian DelFord, 17 September 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

They can't really be separated. Solo players will be fighting in CW, after all. I have too many mechs that I have no issue dropping in. Even if the system were highly punitive, I wouldn't be bothered by it in either queue regardless. Everyone doesn't have that luxury though, so I can't see it coming back. The whine on the forums was epic when it was in.

Then they know the risk and accept the consequences. Open Que is the kiddie pool, CW is the actual game where choices should have have consequences. I am prepared to pay for my mistakes when I make em in game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bigbacon, on 17 September 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

From a business perspective, the goal is to make money, so they need to have it open and accessible to as many people as they can unless those who really want the game are prepared to keep paying a lot more money on a regular basis. Games like these don't survive on small communities.

7.2 BILLION potential players... How many does the game NEED to be viable? Can it be Viable with 20K dedicated player? instead of 200K transient players?

[Shlkt]

R&R can't work in this game unless repair costs are drawn from a fixed budget which is separate from a pilot's individual C-Bill account. For example, it might work for community warfare: a planet could have a fixed budget for repairs, buying mechs, etc... Or it might work in a new game mode where each player has a fixed budget for repairing/respawning.

But for public solo queue games? Terrible idea. Whales basically have unlimited C-Bills at their disposal. Anyone with a fat wallet could run expensive tech all day.

If R&R were implemented its purpose would be to shift the meta; to throw new variables into the mix so that older equipment has new uses, and teams can employ more advanced tactics like using cheap tanks to shield expensive fire support mechs. But none of that will happen as long as whales can just fund expensive tech with real money. Budgets must be on a level playing field or players will quit.

[stevemac]

R&R would force people to play smart again. Gone would be the jenner jumping in front of a AS7 just to grab a kill. And if he did he would have to pay for that move in the repair bay.

[Archon]

Ehh, no thanks. The game has enough money sinks at the moment and it takes long enough to save for a new mech as it is. Maybe if earnings were restored to what they were originally.

[Bilbo]

stevemac, on 17 September 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

R&R would force people to play smart again. Gone would be the jenner jumping in front of a AS7 just to grab a kill. And if he did he would have to pay for that move in the repair bay.

And suicide trials would make a return with a vengeance.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Then they know the risk and accept the consequences. Open Que is the kiddie pool, CW is the actual game where choices should have have consequences. I am prepared to pay for my mistakes when I make em in game.

Like I said, I don't have an issue with it. However, I have a ridiculous number of mechs fitted out and ready to go. I could go on the a losing streak that would make most players quit the game in disgust and still have a mech fitted as I like and ready to drop. At this point, I really don't have to deal with any consequences.

[Mercules]

Archon, on 17 September 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Ehh, no thanks. The game has enough money sinks at the moment and it takes long enough to save for a new mech as it is. Maybe if earnings were restored to what they were originally.

I believe the game only has some of those money sinks because without R&R it has no real sink. It only has artificial sinks like module costs.

[Jon Gotham]

Some interesting and enlightening points made there by a few posters. Never knew it was like that back in beta:) Though I think the need for R&R has passed now with the 4x3 being enforced. Everyone CAN'T roll in the biggest thing they can spam every game now.
Job done.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shlkt, on 17 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

R&R can't work in this game unless repair costs are drawn from a fixed budget which is separate from a pilot's individual C-Bill account. For example, it might work for community warfare: a planet could have a fixed budget for repairs, buying mechs, etc... Or it might work in a new game mode where each player has a fixed budget for repairing/respawning.

But for public solo queue games? Terrible idea. Whales basically have unlimited C-Bills at their disposal. Anyone with a fat wallet could run expensive tech all day.

If R&R were implemented its purpose would be to shift the meta; to throw new variables into the mix so that older equipment has new uses, and teams can employ more advanced tactics like using cheap tanks to shield expensive fire support mechs. But none of that will happen as long as whales can just fund expensive tech with real money. Budgets must be on a level playing field or players will quit.

Not the planetary budget but the Merc commands budget. Minus R&R expenses the Employer Contractually accepts. Mercs are not however often paid per head.

[Mothykins]

Here's the thing. I Like the idea of R&R. I loved it in a few games, but in those games you could make enough income if you tired hard enough, and most of them Where Single Player games where you where against AI. If you got wasted to nothing, you could easily restart or reload from a different point if you got stuck.

As stated by quite a few people, all that reimplementing it as it was will do is make it so people with disposable income can buy their way to the top, or that people will do suicide runs with 1 small Las Locusts with no armor to get cash. Congratulations, your game is now you either stomping on locusts or getting rolled by the guy with lots of money and a gausscat. You've officially made the game worse.

See, a lot of other games where you had to pay for repair and rearm, you could also salvage parts and chassis from kills, assists, etc. In 4 Mercs, you could do pretty well off of this, and selling to the market. We don't have this. We most likely won't have this, for the simple fact that it ***** up PGI's economy model.

I'm not saying I don't want R&R. I'm just saying it punishes players at large, because those with money will always be on top.

Darian DelFord, on 17 September 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

I am one of those middle aged men with a disposable income :> Only reason I am still here is because its Mechwarrior and I still remember the Original Mechwarrior in 1989. However what people do not realzie is there was another BT game before that called The Crescents Hawk Inception 1988. Man the hours I spent on that game. I would leave my computer on all night just to earn more C-bills through Comstar (Stock Market) to be able to buy more mechs.!!

My hope is PGI gets their arse in gear and improve this game. I am tired of the little teeny boppers whining that everything needs to be fair an even. This is Mechwarrior, get over it!

So you're the type of person who helped ruin the economy for everyone after him and then was all "LOL, SUCK IT UP BUB."

You have a really ****** "I'm the only one who matters, and I have money to throw at this so I matter the most" attitude and I rather don't like it. Just because you have money does not make you a special snowflake who's better than everyone. You're middle aged, by admission so grow the hell up and think about other people like an actual compassionate human.

[Mercules]

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

And suicide trials would make a return with a vengeance.
Like I said, I don't have an issue with it. However, I have a ridiculous number of mechs fitted out and ready to go. I could go on the a losing streak that would make most players quit the game in disgust and still have a mech fitted as I like and ready to drop. At this point, I really don't have to deal with any consequences.

You would if CW was slightly different than open PUG play. Maybe you would have a separate budget for CW and 4 mech bays you can use. Moving a mech from or too CW could be time consuming. Suddenly what happens to those 4 mechs you have in CW matters. You can still put together any mech you want in open PUG play and use that as a testing ground before committing money to building it in CW or before transferring it over.

[MoonfireSpam]

Would be interesting to give it a go for CW.

I think it would be reasonable for PGI to monetize C-bills/Repair cost/Rearm as a Pay for Convenience aspect as well. Dire Wolf got trashed? no more Cbills? Can drop some MC to fix that up.

I feel you would need to separate CW C-bill accounts from Non-CW account though, just to have everyone start at the same level.

edit: By all means let people drop in Chassis they earned from pre CW, but for CW, set them back to stock and have gear (re)purchased from a CW pool of C-bills or universal MC.

Edited by MoonfireSpam, 17 September 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

And suicide trials would make a return with a vengeance.
Like I said, I don't have an issue with it. However, I have a ridiculous number of mechs fitted out and ready to go. I could go on the a losing streak that would make most players quit the game in disgust and still have a mech fitted as I like and ready to drop. At this point, I really don't have to deal with any consequences.

Oh.. Look at the rich boy flaunting his wealth! Where do you keep those Mechs? Are you paying storage fees? Basic monthly maintenance costs? Do you bring them ALL to each mission? How? Do you own your own Behemoth class Dropship? There was once an Article in Dragon Magazine about how to keep your players profits in line. It was a very good read for any GM.

[Bounty Dogg]

But without it, whe CW comes, itll just be rockem sockem robot battle teams as everyone fields their sunday best without a care or a worry of needing to repair it, which then cuts down on variation as the louder of the community crow to the heavens about whats the best mech and everyone toadies to that mech...then the nerf calls start and the vicious cycle begins again.....sound familiar?

What most people overlook when voicing concerns about repair and rearm is that the numbers are adjustable. Just like everything else in the game, itll take time to smooth down to where the community is comfortable with it, but I think the benefits (at least in CW; I can agree that, while I wouldve liked to see RnR in the 'skirmish' side of the game, an arguement can be made for its exclusion) would outweigh the hassle.

RnR could be used to help segway a salvage system into CW. programs and subroutines are/were already in place to track damage done to mechs, ammo spent, and other variables. With some adjustment, they couldve made algorithims (i can never spell that word right ) that could track/create a 'salvage point' system, that would've allowed, over time, for players to collect enough 'salvage' (points awarded for this style or gthat style of mech destroyed, points awarded for this/that mech damaged) to have the grease monkeys recreate that 'mech. Then, to be really in depth, have the salvage collecting CONTINUE to help lower the price of RnRing that mech (your guys just built your mech from bailing wire, chewing gum, and left over parts...now they need MOAR parts to repair the thing properly when you wreck it).

All of that could've started with RnR, and I think that CW will be a bit of a flat game system without it.

[Mercules]

Cavale, on 17 September 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

So you're the type of person who helped ruin the economy for everyone after him and then was all "LOL, SUCK IT UP BUB."

You have a really ****** "I'm the only one who matters, and I have money to throw at this so I matter the most" attitude and I rather don't like it. Just because you have money does not make you a special snowflake who's better than everyone. You're middle aged, by admission so grow the hell up and think about other people like an actual compassionate human.

Whoa... calm down there. He was replying to my making a point that a game doesn't have to be widely accessible so that even Grandma will want to play like Candycrush to make money. You can either have a dedicated fan base of say 10k that regularly spend money on the game or 100k that sporadically spend money. You can also have it somewhere in between. However in trying to please everyone you typically please no one so your best bet for a game is to figure out your core demographic and get THEM interested.