229 replies to this topic

[Rebas Kradd]

Put R&R in the eventual single-player mode and devote specific mechs to that mode only. Let our current game modes be the Instant Action side of the game that familiarizes newbies before tossing them into the hardcore, consequential decisions.

A lot of the "hard choices" faced in lore by Mechwarriors merely involved retreating to save their mechs. That's not exactly exciting.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 17 September 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[Bilbo]

Mercules, on 17 September 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

You would if CW was slightly different than open PUG play. Maybe you would have a separate budget for CW and 4 mech bays you can use. Moving a mech from or too CW could be time consuming. Suddenly what happens to those 4 mechs you have in CW matters. You can still put together any mech you want in open PUG play and use that as a testing ground before committing money to building it in CW or before transferring it over.

I have a bankroll at this point that would render that moot as well. Like I said, at this point I am for all intents and purposes immune to R&R.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Oh.. Look at the rich boy flaunting his wealth! Where do you keep those Mechs? Are you paying storage fees? Basic monthly maintenance costs? Do you bring them ALL to each mission? How? Do you own your own Behemoth class Dropship? There was once an Article in Dragon Magazine about how to keep your players profits in line. It was a very good read for any GM.

They are all in yard on blocks until I get ready to use em.

[Mercules]

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I have a bankroll at this point that would render that moot as well. Like I said, at this point I am for all intents and purposes immune to R&R.

Separate Budget.

Mechs can't be instantly transferred between CW and non-CW.


How are you suddenly immune? You play once a day till your mechs get damaged then swap them out and wait the couple days it takes to transfer them out of CW and back in? That is what I am talking about.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yup, it costs a pretty penny to transport a Mech Command across the vastness of the inner sphere, let alone the Commands TO&E plus Billie bad ash's 12 EXTRA Mechs (A Union class dropper just for his swag! Hurumph!)

[Mystere]

aniviron, on 16 September 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

R&R also promotes suiciding or "suiciding" into the enemy team so you can take as little damage as possible during a match you know you're going to lose. Charlie lance decided that no guys they can totally hold off the enemy team alone in conquest? Might as well overheat now, and save yourself the huge repair bill!

Within the context of CW, this can be mitigated by making both dying and losing cost you 100% of equipment and ammo values.

Of course, CW should have some means of giving constant losers some way to not go entirely bankrupt.

[Bilbo]

Mercules, on 17 September 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Separate Budget.

Mechs can't be instantly transferred between CW and non-CW.


How are you suddenly immune? You play once a day till your mechs get damaged then swap them out and wait the couple days it takes to transfer them out of CW and back in? That is what I am talking about.

So I transfer all my money to my CW account before I start. I will have no problems with R&R between CW matches and I'll continue to rake in cash in the solo queue.

[StalaggtIKE]

PewPew2, on 16 September 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

Hmm interesting didn't think of it that way thank you.

Just wanted to make note of this. This has to be one of the rare occasions where a poster made a comment and someone made a reply, without name calling or flame-baiting. Bravo to you both.

Thank you for bringing sanity to the community.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 17 September 2014 - 07:53 AM.

[Mothykins]

MoonfireSpam, on 17 September 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

I think it would be reasonable for PGI to monetize C-bills/Repair cost/Rearm as a Pay for Convenience aspect as well. Dire Wolf got trashed? no more Cbills? Can drop some MC to fix that up.

See, that? That's Pay to Win. PGI Already said no, never to that.

So far this is the one major thing that they've never wavered on, not even a little. Don't tell them to go back on that promise.

This is why it's a bad idea. Community warfare would be nothing but People with money. Full stop.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Oh.. Look at the rich boy flaunting his wealth! Where do you keep those Mechs? Are you paying storage fees? Basic monthly maintenance costs? Do you bring them ALL to each mission? How? Do you own your own Behemoth class Dropship? There was once an Article in Dragon Magazine about how to keep your players profits in line. It was a very good read for any GM.

And then there's the flipside; Players like me. Little money. very few 'Mechs. Average or below Average skill. It takes a Month to afford a 'Mech, how am I expected to upkeep them? How am I expected to ever play more than maybe two 'mechs? I've actually paid for my Jester, Jenner, and Locust. My player profits are horrible as it is, and you're going to punish me more? I already drop into matches and get stomped, I don't need to be told "hey, you can't use the 'Mech YOU BOUGHT. FOR ACTUAL MONEY."

So we separate so now there's a CW Account. Ok, cool. Can I use my Jester? haha, no, because R&R will keep her out of the fight. Or, if you have us start from scratch again, I can't even USE THE 'MECH I PAID FOR.

You are attempting to guarantee that CW is only full of top tier or rich players. And That's pretty ******.

Mystere, on 17 September 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

Within the context of CW, this can be mitigated by making both dying and losing cost you 100% of equipment and ammo values.

Of course, CW should have some means of giving constant losers some way to not go entirely bankrupt.

Wow, neuter me more. No one will ever run a Locust. Or most lights and mediums. Survivability is too low. Thank you for making 1/2 of my 'mechs even less viable. Great.

As for making it so you can't go bankrupt losing constantly, why even have R&R then? Wowo, no consequence for losing constantly. It's like R&R doesn't need to be a thing.

[Bounty Dogg]

Mercules, on 17 September 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Separate Budget.

Mechs can't be instantly transferred between CW and non-CW.


How are you suddenly immune? You play once a day till your mechs get damaged then swap them out and wait the couple days it takes to transfer them out of CW and back in? That is what I am talking about.

Ooo, ooo! I LIKE the separate budget thing! Now, for those that have their mechs and want to use em, I wouldn't alienate them, but i would restrict it in some way ( maybe 1 or 2 mechs of your faction can be 'crossed over', but it would be a onetime cbill cost and just a flat cbill cost for a 1 or 2 mech hard limit in merc corps. For Lone Wolves, you get 1 mech of choice crossed over for a huge discount, but your RnR fees would be the highest, since you have no backers.) If not, then (mweheheheh), you'd have to use what I could call 'mechs of the line' that your faction would provide for you (merc corps who couldn't bring 1 across would also get a mech of the line list). Now, the mechs of the line would need to be balanced with the current game in mind, but not be overpowered (some back and forth between the community and the devs would be required...hmm...a job for the player council!) so that people aren't stuck with trial mechs, but with the majority of the community starting off on equal footing, i think that it would even teh playing field quite effectively.

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

So I transfer all my money to my CW account before I start. I will have no problems with R&R between CW matches and I'll continue to rake in cash in the solo queue.

I wouldn't allow the transfer of spacebux (MC is a different story.) to avoid this issue. Let everyone start close to equal footing (the 1 or 2 mechs i mentioned in an earlier post would be a onetime thing, so no continously bringing mechs over to sell ).

[Hardin4188]

So what if people with real money can use that to repair their mechs? Let me go back to my world of tanks comparison. That's what they do in that game. Maybe it just balances itself out because wot has a much larger player base.

Edited by Hardin4188, 17 September 2014 - 07:57 AM.

[deputydog]

Just just put RnR in CW, make the unit pay the repair costs and the players pay a tax to the unit.

[Bilbo]

Bounty Dogg, on 17 September 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

I wouldn't allow the transfer of spacebux (MC is a different story.) to avoid this issue. Let everyone start close to equal footing (the 1 or 2 mechs i mentioned in an earlier post would be a onetime thing, so no continously bringing mechs over to sell ).

If you are going to except MC, I'd still be immune.

[Bounty Dogg]

Cavale, on 17 September 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

See, that? That's Pay to Win. PGI Already said no, never to that.

So far this is the one major thing that they've never wavered on, not even a little. Don't tell them to go back on that promise.

This is why it's a bad idea. Community warfare would be nothing but People with money. Full stop.
And then there's the flipside; Players like me. Little money. very few 'Mechs. Average or below Average skill. It takes a Month to afford a 'Mech, how am I expected to upkeep them? How am I expected to ever play more than maybe two 'mechs? I've actually paid for my Jester, Jenner, and Locust. My player profits are horrible as it is, and you're going to punish me more? I already drop into matches and get stomped, I don't need to be told "hey, you can't use the 'Mech YOU BOUGHT. FOR ACTUAL MONEY."

So we separate so now there's a CW Account. Ok, cool. Can I use my Jester? haha, no, because R&R will keep her out of the fight. Or, if you have us start from scratch again, I can't even USE THE 'MECH I PAID FOR.

You are attempting to guarantee that CW is only full of top tier or rich players. And That's pretty ******.



Wow, neuter me more. No one will ever run a Locust. Or most lights and mediums. Survivability is too low. Thank you for making 1/2 of my 'mechs even less viable. Great.

As for making it so you can't go bankrupt losing constantly, why even have R&R then? Wowo, no consequence for losing constantly. It's like R&R doesn't need to be a thing.

CW does have to have some teeth to have an impact, I fear. However, there are ways for the poor (like me too) to enjoy it.

Join a Merc group:
group of friends with like minded goals can pool resources.

Join a faction:
if I had my way, your RnR costs would be greatly reduced due to faction paying for it (or waived if you manage to navigate up the 'ranks' as it were), AND you would be paid as a soldier, AND you would be supplied with a starting mech thats NOT a trial mech (remember, this is waht it would be like if it were up to me )

Hell, I'd try to find some way for even Lone Wolves to never have their backs fully up against the Wall, finance-wise......But in order for CW to be memorable...there has to be a wall.

[Bilbo]

deputydog, on 17 September 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Just just put RnR in CW, make the unit pay the repair costs and the players pay a tax to the unit.

So the defending unit is going to pay for the solo players that came to defend their planet when they couldn't.

[Lupin]

Was there not talk in open beta days of hard core mode? R&R be added to CW or an opt-in hard core mode. Adding risk and reward to the game.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

And then there's the flipside; Players like me. Little money. very few 'Mechs. Average or below Average skill. It takes a Month to afford a 'Mech, how am I expected to upkeep them? How am I expected to ever play more than maybe two 'mechs? I've actually paid for my Jester, Jenner, and Locust. My player profits are horrible as it is, and you're going to punish me more? I already drop into matches and get stomped, I don't need to be told "hey, you can't use the 'Mech YOU BOUGHT. FOR ACTUAL MONEY."[/color]

[So we separate so now there's a CW Account. Ok, cool. Can I use my Jester? haha, no, because R&R will keep her out of the fight. Or, if you have us start from scratch again, I can't even USE THE 'MECH I PAID FOR.


You are attempting to guarantee that CW is only full of top tier or rich players. And That's pretty ******.

I am this guy now. 1.08 Million C-Bills. No stockpile, 7 Mechs. I had to spend a lot of time grinding to get 4 of them. (One Founders, Sara, Hellslinger are cash). I will be in CW and I'm not rich nor am I top tier. See you in CW.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 September 2014 - 08:05 AM.

[EvilCow]

Budgets should be separate, what you gain in pug mode should stay in pug. Only mechs should be transferable but I would also consider "extracting" money from CW to the main account in order to buy new mechs.

Money should in no case be injected in CW.

[Sandpit]

aniviron, on 16 September 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Am I the only one who remembers what closed beta was like? Who doesn't have a rose-tinted neurohelmet?

Okay, so first off: R&R is a great concept from an immersion standpoint. That's awesome. It felt great that actions had consequences, and that after a match, I would be able to go through and see exactly what those consequences were. It made the game feel much more 'real,' (not real as in real life, fools) and it made it feel like a Mechwarrior game. That was awesome.

You know what wasn't awesome though? Being punished by the game because I was poor. Half my matches my armor was at the free 75%. Almost all of them I was at 0% internals. All my builds had ammo counts based on not being able to rearm, and using the free 50% you got. My teammates weren't too pleased with me either, but ****, it takes forever to get new mechs and engines, so they could go stuff it. R&R also promotes suiciding or "suiciding" into the enemy team so you can take as little damage as possible during a match you know you're going to lose. Charlie lance decided that no guys they can totally hold off the enemy team alone in conquest? Might as well overheat now, and save yourself the huge repair bill!

Seriously, R&R promoted some terrible game mechanics. People at the bottom get punished, and people where I am now don't care. Oh, I would lose money for running in a clan mech? How terrible, my 260m cbill stack will be gone in no time! Haha, just kidding, I can ride that to a 90% winrate for years if some weapons are only balanced because they're expensive to use.

The idea of R&R is great. But you'd be hard-pressed to come up with an implementation of it that doesn't disproportionally hurt new and poor players. The only thing that even comes close is having an R&R system where either your faction alignment or merc corp foots the bill; presumably a percentage of your winnings go to your house/clan if you're not in a corp, and you would be expected to donate to your merc corp's coffers if you were a part of one. These have the advantage of letting the rich players absorb some of the cost for their newer buddies, and it would mean that you wouldn't see players intentionally getting destroyed in the most cost-efficient way possible as soon as the match's outcome became clear. The downside is that if someone is footing the bill for you and the repairs are automatic, why even have it at that point? Then you get some of the inconvenience, and none of the immersion.

Ok, first, this would be a CW thing. You'd still get what you get now in the pub queues. When you enter CW, you're entering the "hardcore" server with restrictions and limitations based on the campaign itself. So if you find yourself in the predicament of being poor, you can always switch back out the pub queue and earn cbills.

There's got to be an economy in place for CW, it's just that simple. Without an economy you're playing the exact same thing as the pub queues.

EvilCow, on 17 September 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Budgets should be separate, what you gain in pug mode should stay in pug. Only mechs should be transferable but I would also consider "extracting" money from CW to the main account in order to buy new mechs.

Money should in no case be injected in CW.

Use "escrow fees" to move money from your "public account" to your "CW account", it adds a money sink as well as allows players not to be restricted to only money they earn in the CW queues as well.

[Bounty Dogg]

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

If you are going to except MC, I'd still be immune.

True, but that's YOUR money, so if I don't allow you to spend it, you'll have a sore issue with me, now wouldnt you?
However, I'd limit THAT way as well (perhaps the 2 mechs total, whether cbill or MC, but let the MC reduce your RnR footprint on that mech only, on top of whatever RnR footprint reductions you get from CW).

[PewPew2]

I'm glad to see my question cause this kind of discussion. Something that I think PGI should really look into is giving extra rewards for people who use standard engines, internal structure etc. That seems to be the easiest thing to implement that makes the most sense.