Jump to content

Ecm Isn't Your Problem -- This Is Your Problem!


8 replies to this topic

#1 nehebkau

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,386 posts
  • LocationIn a water-rights dispute with a Beaver

Posted 17 September 2014 - 06:06 AM

First, let me say this: If you ‘adjust’ ECM without first dealing with target-lock sharing expect LRMaggedon once again…. Now:

ECM is not the problem. People would like you to think that but people also want you to think that homeopathy works and that the moon landings didn’t happen. The reason people are blaming ECM is that they are unwilling or unable to actually dissect what is going wrong when they are playing their LRM boats. People blame ECM because it is there and visible. None the less, I took out a stock mech, equipped it with some LRMs and went to play in the small-time leagues. Here is what I found by objectively looking at how things went:

At first, I found ECM annoying it was just easiest to blame it for not being able to use my primary source of damage…. No viable targets – it must be ECM’s fault! My damage and hit rate was horrible and the games were just frustration. In reality it wasn’t ECM that was causing all my anger it worked out to be:

  • My team-mates were not able/willing to hold, or didn’t hold locks/swapped locked targets .
  • Slow lock-on times that seemed to get even slower on some mechs for no reason.
  • 50/50 chance that your launch will plow into the ground or go off into the sky. Missiles miss
  • Slow missile flight time.
  • Non-level missile flight path for dumb-fire (non-locked) shots. Shooting without a lock was only reliable ~5% of the time.
  • BAP serves no real purpose for LRM users, meaning that if I close distance where BAP becomes useful my missiles do no damage. Lock-on timers seem to fluctuate with the time of day and rag-doll damage picture doesn’t help my LRM aiming. If I get too close, I quickly become a locking-sharing target and die a horrible death.

Why were these issues for me?


  • Well, first, I was using the LRM as my main damage weapon, not as a supporting weapon. In many load outs I see that this is where you are kind of forced to go. It was quite frustrating to have to revert to using a medium laser as my only weapon. It made me angry and I can see how people are mistakenly saying that ECM negates an entire weapon class. In reality, moving into position and negating an ECM was challenging but not in, and of, itself difficult it was that the LRM issues made that one, hard-won, chance to use my primary weapons usually a failure! To put it into numbers, ECM would reduce my chances of getting a good target to 50%, the LRM issues would then reduce the chances of a successful hit from that lock to 10% -- that would translate to a 5% chance to successfully use my primary weapons. It wasn’t ECM, it was LRM bugs and poor design.
  • Often when I would peek my head up and try to actively engage the enemy I would get a lock but my missiles would go flying off somewhere else or into the ground or I would be forced to loose the lock and dive for cover as the shared-target missile swarm came flying in.
  • When mechs would emerge from the ECM bubble the time to lock onto them, often, was much much higher than it feels like It should have been. It was like some ECM slime stuck to the mech I was targeting slowing down the lock-on time.
  • If I dumb-fired my missiles they would have these nice parabolic arcs then land nowhere near the spot that I was aiming at. Just seems to me that if I were dumb-firing my missiles should just fly in a straight (non parabolic) arc until the reach their maximum range (just like srms do)
  • AMS encourages boating of LRMs. For example, LRM5 was a useless weapon when someone had an AMS even worse when a group had several AMS. Everyone who is crying about ECM is bringing up the hard-counter issue – well Isn’t AMS a hard-counter for LRMS? (granted there is an ammo constraint but the weight and hard points are pretty steep, specially in lighter mechs)
So, how should these be fixed?
  • First off, ECM doesn’t need to be changed. There are too many major game mechanic issues that make it necessary and it is limited to a few mechs.
  • BAP should have a larger range, at least 200m, but 250 would be better.
  • Lock times need to be reduced much, much more when you have a BAP on-board.
  • Dumb-fired missiles should have a straight LOS flight path not the curving arc.
  • There should be NO dud missile fire. Having an entire launch of missiles go off into la-la land or the ground because you can’t sync the actual target lock with what the player sees is not good.
  • SSRMs should act as BOTH SRM and SSRM, meaning if you fire them without a lock they go straight out and detonate like a regular SRM
  • LRMs should be fire and forget. Once I get a lock and fire them my lock should go away and my missiles fly regardless of what I do, auto-tracking the target. My lock should be reset and I should have to re lock a target to fire again. That means I no longer have to stand still and hold my cross hair in the little box waiting the eternity for my missiles to land. It means that the choice between choosing to chain fire or group fire is even more important. It means that when I fire I loose my target and my lock and have to reacquire both.
None of this was really because of ECM, it was because there was/is so much wrong with LRMs, starting with them being a primary weapons system and spiraling down from there!



What I did notice, was how quickly the other team would drop if we had a lot of missile boats and they had no ECM. Everyone would lock-onto the first available target and fire a hellish barrage of missiles and all but the biggest mech would crumple.
That mechanic needs to be fixed before anything else – its not ECM that’s the problem.

Now, if your argument is just around TT lore -- this game isn't TT, get over it.

Edited by nehebkau, 17 September 2014 - 06:09 AM.


#2 DocBach

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 4,828 posts
  • LocationSouthern Oregon

Posted 17 September 2014 - 06:16 AM

I don't play Lrm boats and I think ECM is a terrible mechanic -- that out of the way, you want locks shortened, direct fire better and for Lrm mechs to not have to hold locks anymore? If I read your post right you want lrms buffed.

Edited by DocBach, 17 September 2014 - 06:19 AM.


#3 Dolph Hoskins

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Territorial
  • The Territorial
  • 499 posts
  • LocationThe Machine

Posted 17 September 2014 - 06:21 AM

The way the game radar is currently setup it is almost impossible to spot for any meaningful period of time against players who know how to look at their screen.

If they were to make indirect fire changes on lrms without changing anything else, they would be nearly useless for the team coordinated role they are used for.

ECM is about the only reliable way a spotter can spot without being almost instantly targeted, even with ECM I think enemy mechs still get the low signal warning on their radar yes?

Without passive radar options or ECM, there can be no worth while spotting.

#4 nehebkau

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,386 posts
  • LocationIn a water-rights dispute with a Beaver

Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:20 AM

I could reliably circumvent the primary protection of ECM with a little forethought and some piloting. More often then not, the OTHER LRM issues would screw things up.

As far as buffing LRMs, I'll leave that to someone else to figure out -- I just observed and made my suggestions. They are a poorly implemented weapon system and/or a weapon system with crap-loads of bugs.

Honestly, I think people who are equipping them are a detriment to their team (for the most part i.e. excluding incredible pilots).

#5 Cimarb

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Caladbolg
  • Caladbolg
  • 3,912 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationA hop, skip and jump from Terra

Posted 18 September 2014 - 11:16 AM

View Postnehebkau, on 17 September 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

I could reliably circumvent the primary protection of ECM with a little forethought and some piloting. More often then not, the OTHER LRM issues would screw things up.

As far as buffing LRMs, I'll leave that to someone else to figure out -- I just observed and made my suggestions. They are a poorly implemented weapon system and/or a weapon system with crap-loads of bugs.

Honestly, I think people who are equipping them are a detriment to their team (for the most part i.e. excluding incredible pilots).

So, you want to change tons of other systems to prevent ECM from being changed because you like it? Seems reasonable.

You also think that LRMs should only be a secondary weapon system, ignoring the fact that there are many mechs specifically designed to boat them in stock configurations, such as the Archer, Mad Dog, Longbow, Bombardier, Catapult and Crossbow, just to name some off the top of my head.

The only bug with LRMs is the lock-on issue, which is quite annoying, but is already being looked into by PGI and is easily avoidable by listening for the tone change, instead of the reticle change. There is no random or buggy time to lock on - it is only affected by other systems, such as Artemis and ECM. If you used LRMs for any significant amount of time, you would learn these things.

Your entire "test" is doomed to failure due to your bias against it. You accuse me in another thread of acting like Fox News, yet you have no actual facts in your testing - it is almost completely subjective to your personal opinion - which is exactly what you are accusing me of doing, even though I am stating percentages of mechs with ECM in a match compared to the total number of mechs in the game. Pot, meet kettle?

#6 DocBach

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 4,828 posts
  • LocationSouthern Oregon

Posted 18 September 2014 - 11:28 AM

View PostCimarb, on 18 September 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

So, you want to change tons of other systems to prevent ECM from being changed because you like it? Seems reasonable.



...he's a Raven driver - no bias here.

#7 Ozric

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 1,188 posts
  • LocationSunny Southsea

Posted 18 September 2014 - 11:31 AM

You took a long time over that post OP, so props for that, but both your assumptions and your conclusions are entirely subjective.

#8 Mercules

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 5,136 posts
  • LocationPlymouth, MN

Posted 18 September 2014 - 11:42 AM

Hmmmm.... so you don't realize that it isn't only the LRM - ECM interaction that has people upset about ECM. Did you know that teams that have no concerns about LRMs at all and think they are so worthless that they and the teams they normally fight don't typically bring them to matches still use ECM for all the other benefits it offers?

This has nothing to do with people being so bad that they can't avoid LRMs with or without ECM... it's the "other" things ECM does that it shouldn't that is wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I said in Closed Beta LRM mechanics were poor and needed an overhaul, but ECM would need an overhaul even if there were no LRMs in the game.

#9 Lightfoot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 6,612 posts
  • LocationOlympus Mons

Posted 18 September 2014 - 11:47 AM

Just restore old Gauss Rifles and normal speed PPCs to hit LRM boats and you're fine. ECM is changing a bit because every Loki will carry the unit=probably 7-9 mechs per team with ECM at least for awhile. Otherwise, there are no accurate at long range weapons that anyone would take except the LRMs. You have my sympathies.





3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users