307 replies to this topic

[Bilbo]

ski2060, on 17 September 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

And your point is? Learn to shoot less after you lose a side torso in a Clan mech. Those of us in IS mechs will just continue to spectate after we get ONE SHOT by a Dire wolf taking out one of our side torsos.

No one at all is saying to auto shutdown. If you ride your heat scale that high already, that's your fault. Learn to keep it lower.

Actually, the OP is suggested exactly that.

[S13gtastic]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

The further you stray from the TT, the worse this game is going to do. Its already evident through past events. Ghost heat. 3PV.

I didnt start playing MWO till October of last year, I still don't get what ghost heat is or care, it's just this thing that people complain about while they shake a fist in the air and talk about "back in my day we had proper light mechs that had respect for their elders not these punk clanners with their flashy Xl's and paint jobs!"

[Destructicus]

ski2060, on 17 September 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

And your point is? Learn to shoot less after you lose a side torso in a Clan mech. Those of us in IS mechs will just continue to spectate after we get ONE SHOT by a Dire wolf taking out one of our side torsos.

No one at all is saying to auto shutdown. If you ride your heat scale that high already, that's your fault. Learn to keep it lower.

so lose half my weapons and then shoot less?
sounds good
If I'm in the middle of a heated fight and I'm running hot then all of a sudden you lose a ST because my heat is already high I should shut down and let you take out my other st?
Mechs run hot, that's part of the game, clan mechs already run hot because of the latest round of nerfs
What you guys want for clans to not be able to fight back and call it balance

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[ski2060]

Bilbo, on 17 September 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Actually, the OP is suggested exactly that.

No, he suggested that if you are already riding at 80-90 % heat scale and you lose a torso, you might shut down from it. So don't ride your heat if you are not fresh.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

What was I just saying about fundamental differences?

There arent fundamental differences in any artform. Movies, music, games, painting. The only thing that changes is the medium, which is really trivial. All the over arching truths about art forms, have been around for hundreds of years.

If youre re-interpreting the Mona Lisa...you dont make him a man. You know what I mean?

With any IP, made into any medium, youre going to have things that are always true. Nothing survives completely intact, ill grant you, but also straying far from what made you successful as what you are will just doom you.

Also theres simply to much cross over between the mediums these days to see any fundamental difference. Videographers and musicians share the same space and are many times the same person, and also paint, own vineyards, write plays, act, or even transition entire to a new medium.

If you didnt have people like Henry Rollins or that guy from Tool, or Chris Roberts....maybe id agree with you. But you flat out can tell how directing movies, made Chris Roberts a better game designer, and how being a game designer, made him an "ok" director.

Theres alot of overlap. Im a musician and a videographer and amateur game designer so I can tell that these things all over lap.

If I was trying to turn a video into a game, I certainly know that I dont want to start abandoning core concepts.

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Now you're talking about something completely different
Those are video games
GTA and Half life aren't based off movies or table top games.

But they were designed the same way you direct a movie. The point being, that the skills are transferrable and are closely linked with each other.

Another good example....Warhammer.

The WH40k games are based on table top, and keep their rule set in their entirety.

Even the first person Genestealer game did to the best of its 16bit ability.

[Bilbo]

ski2060, on 17 September 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

No, he suggested that if you are already riding at 80-90 % heat scale and you lose a torso, you might shut down from it. So don't ride your heat if you are not fresh.

He suggested a 50% heat penalty. I don't know of too many people in the middle of a fight who that wouldn't shut down.

[ski2060]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

so lose half my weapons and then shoot less? sounds good If I'm in the middle of a heated fight and I'm running hot then all of a sudden you lose a ST because my heat is already high I should shut down and let you take out my other st? Mechs run hot, that's part of the game, clan mechs already run hot because of the latest round of nerfs What you guys want for clans to not be able to fight back and call it balance

How about your mech just dies like IS mechs do then?

So, you're saying that you should just have an advantage over IS mechs due to torso loss. Along with more damage, and lighter weapons. That's what I'm getting from you.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Some sort of penalty is coming to Clan XL whether people like it or not. It will influence movement or heat or both.

It shouldn't be too debilitating, but it needs to make a noticeable difference.

One guy said...why pilot clans then? Well there is superior weapons, and STILL the ability to move and shoot with a side torso gone.

Like I said though, its coming regardless. I just don't want it to be too severe, it doesn't need to be. Just make it hurt movement as much as going up a weight class. That seems fair to me.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

There arent fundamental differences in any artform. Movies, music, games, painting. The only thing that changes is the medium, which is really trivial. All the over arching truths about art forms, have been around for hundreds of years.

If youre re-interpreting the Mona Lisa...you dont make him a man. You know what I mean?

With any IP, made into any medium, youre going to have things that are always true. Nothing survives completely intact, ill grant you, but also straying far from what made you successful as what you are will just doom you.

Also theres simply to much cross over between the mediums these days to see any fundamental difference. Videographers and musicians share the same space and are many times the same person, and also paint, own vineyards, write plays, act, or even transition entire to a new medium.

If you didnt have people like Henry Rollins or that guy from Tool, or Chris Roberts....maybe id agree with you. But you flat out can tell how directing movies, made Chris Roberts a better game designer, and how being a game designer, made him an "ok" director.

Theres alot of overlap. Im a musician and a videographer and amateur game designer so I can tell that these things all over lap.

If I was trying to turn a video into a game, I certainly know that I dont want to start abandoning core concepts.

so books are the exact same as video games?
You fail to realize the fundamental difference I'm referring to is how that medium is taken in
You don't play books and read video games.
I'm a musician too, I've been playing guitar for 15 years, exactly what skills as a guitarist would help me design video games?
How did my knowledge of the core concepts of music help me become an EMT, how would it help in video games?

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 11:13 AM.

[S13gtastic]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Another good example....Warhammer.

The WH40k games are based on table top, and keep their rule set in their entirety.

Even the first person Genestealer game did to the best of its 16bit ability.

Warhammer Space Marine was nothing like table top besides being a fun 3rd person shooter based on Warhammer same with the RTS......just saying.

[KraftySOT]

Youve got the Aliens based video games, that have ebbed and flowed in success, related mostly to the adhering to the original content. Based on movies. Youve got star wars games that ebb and flow in success based mostly on their tie ins with the actual lore (Tie fighter was uber popular, some of the later titles, not as much)

You have Shadowrun....that did really well as a 32bit title. You had a game that ruined it, and it did really bad. Then a newer game trying to get back to the original lore.

You can see this EVERY WHERE YOU LOOK in art.

When you stray from the core set of concepts, youre losing people. What made it attractive n the first place is gone.

Of course if you turn a game like Warhammer that is turn based into a real time game, youre going to see some changes. However the changes in those games are relatively small. There isnt a giant on going forum war over the lack of it being like the TT.

[Destructicus]

ski2060, on 17 September 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

How about your mech just dies like IS mechs do then?

So, you're saying that you should just have an advantage over IS mechs due to torso loss. Along with more damage, and lighter weapons. That's what I'm getting from you.

how would that be fair?
We can't forgo XL's for STD engines
I'm saying don't penalize clans for something they can't change.

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 September 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Some sort of penalty is coming to Clan XL whether people like it or not. It will influence movement or heat or both.

It shouldn't be too debilitating, but it needs to make a noticeable difference.

One guy said...why pilot clans then? Well there is superior weapons, and STILL the ability to move and shoot with a side torso gone.

Like I said though, its coming regardless. I just don't want it to be too severe, it doesn't need to be. Just make it hurt movement as much as going up a weight class. That seems fair to me.

And I fully understand the need for a nerf, but a 50 percent heat spike upon the loss of a torso is way too much

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

so books are the exact same as video games?
You fail to realize the fundamental difference I'm referring to is how that medium is taken in
You don't play books and read video games.
I'm a musician too, I've been playing guitar for 15 years, exactly what skills as a guitarist would help me design video games?

Do you know how to write a song? Where to place a bridge? Then you in essence, know how to tell a story. You know how to hold someones interest. You also know if you play a classical riff for someone and they like it, that if you start vamping out some distorted progression, that the person may not like it, because its not what they heard and already liked.

Performing infront of people, you certainly learn valuable lessons about presentation, content, attention span. All valuable things when designing more art you want to sell someone.

Also you know that if youre getting paid to play a Led Zepplin cover at a bar, and you change the progressions and riffs to something different. Theyre going to be pissed.

When someone expects to hear something, and hears your interpretation of it thats very unlike the original. People are understandably upset.

This is a cover band you know. The Battletech/Mechwarrior cover band.

If you start playing songs that they never wrote...or change the songs to be something different. Youre failing at your job...

[ski2060]

Even if clan mechs could take STD engines, they STILL would have more weaponry than IS mechs. All of their weapons have longer ranges, some do more damage, and they almost all weigh less than equivalent IS weapons.
The clan mechs would ALWAYS have the weaponry advantage.

And that needs to be balanced. They have superior weapon customization. Delivering damage is what wins games.

How do YOU balance out clan mechs so that they are not clearly the choice to play in CW.
Because if there is a clear choice to make to win, ALL the competetive units will make that choice.

[Damien Tokala]

I have a solution. Get rid of Innersphere mechs

[KraftySOT]

S13gtastic, on 17 September 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

I didnt start playing MWO till October of last year, I still don't get what ghost heat is or care, it's just this thing that people complain about while they shake a fist in the air and talk about "back in my day we had proper light mechs that had respect for their elders not these punk clanners with their flashy Xl's and paint jobs!"

That little warning in your mechlab if you put 3 or 4 of something on there and it says "this will cause extra heat if you fire them at the same time" thats ghost heat. Its really annoying. If you come in and have always had it, and dont come from the TT, then yeah its meaningless to you really.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

And I fully understand the need for a nerf, but a 50 percent heat spike upon the loss of a torso is way too much

I agree. Maybe 25% or 33% at maximum. Honestly though, 20%~25% is probably ok. With less weapons due to a torso destruction, it shouldn't impact the mechs ability to fire too much (maybe not at all depending on load out). Again, should be noticeable, but I'm not sure it should be crippling.

BTW, like Joseph pointed out earlier, really all mechs should suffer movement and heat penalties if a mech suffers an engine critical hit.

For now though, I think the clans need it a bit for some additional balancing.

[KraftySOT]

S13gtastic, on 17 September 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Warhammer Space Marine was nothing like table top besides being a fun 3rd person shooter based on Warhammer same with the RTS......just saying.

[color=#252525]It has also received mostly positive responses from players, particularly those already interested by the background universe. However, apparently disappointing overall sales figures and internal problems within the game's developer companies, then the closure of THQ seem to have now prevented any further planned upgrades to the game and ended any chances for a direct sequel, unless another company decides to attempt one.

Also the least successful.

But in a see of perfect clones of the TT, it was forgivable.

Space Hulk was spot on however.[/color]

[Scratx]

ski2060, on 17 September 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Even if clan mechs could take STD engines, they STILL would have more weaponry than IS mechs. All of their weapons have longer ranges, some do more damage, and they almost all weigh less than equivalent IS weapons.
The clan mechs would ALWAYS have the weaponry advantage.

And that needs to be balanced. They have superior weapon customization. Delivering damage is what wins games.

How do YOU balance out clan mechs so that they are not clearly the choice to play in CW.
Because if there is a clear choice to make to win, ALL the competetive units will make that choice.

Almost all of the clan mechs have their hardpoints either low on the arms or low-ish on the torso. Or are nigh unmissable.

Can I start quoting IS mechs that have high-mounted guns? I mean, off hand I can start with the Jagermech and the Blackjack.

If you don't know what you can do with that, then I can't help you.

[Gyrok]

EvilCow, on 17 September 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Excessive, clans don't have standard engines as alternative.

1/3 of engine heat sinks loss and 30% speed loss would be plenty excessive considering half mech is lost in that moment too.

FTFY!