307 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

You don't play books and read video games.

Then you never read the Hitchikers guide, or played Zork.

Kind of done with you then You clearly have no idea what youre talking about.

[Gierling]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

how would that be fair?
We can't forgo XL's for STD engines
I'm saying don't penalize clans for something they can't change.


And I fully understand the need for a nerf, but a 50 percent heat spike upon the loss of a torso is way too much

The % is fully up to PGI, that's variable. However whatever it is it has the potential to overheat you. Even if you give it a couple second ramp up.

If your at 98% Heat even a 10% penalty phased in over 3 seconds would put you over.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Do you know how to write a song? Where to place a bridge? Then you in essence, know how to tell a story. You know how to hold someones interest. You also know if you play a classical riff for someone and they like it, that if you start vamping out some distorted progression, that the person may not like it, because its not what they heard and already liked.

Performing infront of people, you certainly learn valuable lessons about presentation, content, attention span. All valuable things when designing more art you want to sell someone.

Also you know that if youre getting paid to play a Led Zepplin cover at a bar, and you change the progressions and riffs to something different. Theyre going to be pissed.

When someone expects to hear something, and hears your interpretation of it thats very unlike the original. People are understandably upset.

You're referring to song writing as a formula, where a bridge is "supposed" to go
I can tell from the bands you've been name dropping that you're into that arena rock radio crap that was formulated to get stuck in your head
It's music by numbers
Video games by numbers are bland, see Call of Duty.
Why adhere to conventional song writing techniques?
The music I write doesn't follow the same formula as those recycled radio bands
if the battletech TT has been so amazing and perfect then why has it stagnated the way it has over the last couple of years?
You just can't admit that it doesn't apply well here

[Damien Tokala]

UPDATE, ALL INNERSPHERE MECHS ARE REPLACED WITH CLAN MECHS

[Verdic Mckenna]

Most definitely agreed. I think this is a bad direction for balance when you can just as easily grant individual IS Chassis' some slightly OP quirks and get similar effects. We've already had Phoenix Mechs come out - the technology curve is closing fast. It wasn't long before the Draconis Combine was fielding Clan Mechs - even if they were with a penalty.

Is permanently nerfing a chassis type truly the way to go? I'm sorry guys - I just think you're dead wrong on this one.

Gyrok, on 17 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

FTFY!

[Destructicus]

ski2060, on 17 September 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

And that needs to be balanced. They have superior weapon customization.

ha no
Is have clans beat in that area

Gierling, on 17 September 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

The % is fully up to PGI, that's variable. However whatever it is it has the potential to overheat you. Even if you give it a couple second ramp up.

If your at 98% Heat even a 10% penalty phased in over 3 seconds would put you over.

we're not talking about PGI, we're talking about your idea and how 50% is ridiculous
10% seems fair, but your idea was ridiculous

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Then you never read the Hitchikers guide, or played Zork.

Kind of done with you then You clearly have no idea what youre talking about.

coming from the guy who thinks you experience video games the same way you do books.

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 September 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

I agree. Maybe 25% or 33% at maximum. Honestly though, 20%~25% is probably ok. With less weapons due to a torso destruction, it shouldn't impact the mechs ability to fire too much (maybe not at all depending on load out). Again, should be noticeable, but I'm not sure it should be crippling.

BTW, like Joseph pointed out earlier, really all mechs should suffer movement and heat penalties if a mech suffers an engine critical hit.

For now though, I think the clans need it a bit for some additional balancing.

I agree
But they shouldn't penalize clans so stiffly for fixed engines.
There are other ways to balance the clans

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

coming from the guy who thinks you experience video games the same way you do books.

Hrm.

Edited by KraftySOT, 17 September 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[Gierling]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

we're not talking about PGI, we're talking about your idea and how 50% is ridiculous
10% seems fair, but your idea was ridiculous

50% is just an arbitrary throw it out number, whatever it ends up as it will be what PGI sets it to. All at once or over a few seconds, if your deep in your heat curve when it happens shutdowns are going to happen.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Hrm.

I'm talking about books.
You know
The Odyessy, To Kill a Mocking Bird, The Cat in the Hat
You don't experience that the way you do when you're playing a video game.
Nice try though using a text based game in an attempt to make a half ass point.

[Lorokin]

KraftySOT what rules version were you playing by in TT?

Clans mechs are "less" customize-able? Since when? If you played by the Master Rules at all, you'd know you can fully deck your mech out with ANY weapon under the sun, any engine, any equipment, all freely able to do IF you just made sure you kept within certain restrictions or requirements (ie. can't run single and double heat sinks in the same mech, etc).

I would love for you to show me this idea that Clan mechs are "Less Customize-able". Because even in MWO this isn't the case, we have 'more' options then our IS counter-parts. I change a POD I get different options, you can't do that on the IS mechs currently in the game. If it's a missile hardpoint, it's a missile hardpoint, period. Unless you want to pony up and buy a different variant that "may" have a slightly different configuration. A single Timber Wolf can swap in and out POD's to suit whatever mood I'm in. They may not be "hugely" different but it's more options per mech, then IS mechs currently have.


Also, it's been pointed out and proven TT rules do not translate over to the video game arena for "perfect" balance, you're living in a dream world. Random dice was the 'major' factor that balanced the TT game, you don't have such randomness in a video game where I can aim at any body part, pull the trigger and hit the location I want to hit.


If you role back the weapon nerfs on the Clan tech, you wouldn't see less, you'd see more whining. Why? Because people who are playing this game are playing the Meta, they're not following Clan rules of combat, everyone's playing the hide and peek game. Which is not "Lore" faithful.


I'm by no means saying this game is perfectly balanced, because it's not. But what this OP is suggesting is ludicrous for balance. It would nerf the Clan mechs into the ground, way past IS tech.


A side note with Community Warfare the Clans *SHOULD* be bidding when they plan to attack a world, which means they're going to be *UNDER* strength in numbers.

This is the MAJOR reason, Clan mechs were made "Superior" because they were ALWAYS out numbered (usually) when they went into combat. Bidding away forces, not even meeting on an even playing field of 1 on 1 matches like the current MWO matches roll them out as.

This entire argument is pointless because the factors that mattered, aren't in play yet. You want to nerf something without seeing the full plan or the potential of the scale of war you're talking about. You're making assumptions on CW like it's going to remain the same 12 v 12. If I recall correctly, there was a Beta play-test one weekend that addressed this and the Clan only sides had fewer people on their team compared to the IS side. To address this very issue of "1 v 1 should be equal" which is a load of crap if you actually take the IP into any account. Which this OP is not.

[ski2060]

Dude, Clan mechs have these things called omnipods. They can swap them around in arms and torsos so that they can change weapon type options in that area. Maybe you've heard of them?

IS chassis can not do this. To get different weapon placement options you have to buy a new mech. That is not superior customization.

This is what I refer to in Clans getting superior weapon optimization. Plus, they can drop arm and hand actuators to get more space. IS can't do that.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

I'm talking about books.
You know
The Odyessy, To Kill a Mocking Bird, The Cat in the Hat
You don't experience that the way you do when you're playing a video game.
Nice try though using a text based game in an attempt to make a half ass point.

Actually...the Odyessy translated really well to a video game, as it did to a movie...

And whats cool about the movie, is that its not even the same content, but, IT KEEPS THE SAME CONCEPTS.

Pretty sure O Brother where Art though did pretty good.

Also theres I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, which is a game made by author Harlan Ellison, which directly translates one of his short stories.

I have gaggles of this ****. Telling a story is telling a story, regardless of the medium.

Providing a balanced game meant for humans to compete in, is the same regardless of the medium.

[Damien Tokala]

ski2060, on 17 September 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Dude, Clan mechs have these things called omnipods. They can swap them around in arms and torsos so that they can change weapon type options in that area. Maybe you've heard of them?

IS chassis can not do this. To get different weapon placement options you have to buy a new mech. That is not superior customization.

This is what I refer to in Clans getting superior weapon optimization. Plus, they can drop arm and hand actuators to get more space. IS can't do that.

I'll help you drop a hand actuator. Just hold really really still.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

ha no
Is have clans beat in that area


we're not talking about PGI, we're talking about your idea and how 50% is ridiculous
10% seems fair, but your idea was ridiculous


coming from the guy who thinks you experience video games the same way you do books.


I agree
But they shouldn't penalize clans so stiffly for fixed engines.
There are other ways to balance the clans

Clan engines may be fixed, but a lack of customized engine sizes is a good price to pay for a light engine that is approx. 33% more durable and a lot lighter, and I think takes up less crit space.

A lack of modifiable engine sizes is a bummer, but the one engine you do get is amazingly better than the IS XL or IS standard in multiple areas.

Again, I would like to see a small penalty for a side torso loss. I would also like to see engine critical hits anyway across the board (IS and Clan).

[KraftySOT]

Then you have the Neuromancer game...a spot on adaptation of the novel.

Youve got Jurrassic Park, that ***** the books, theres a good example of an Anamoly.

But now theyre going to go back and remake it according to the book, and itll probably do even better.

Theres literally thousands of examples of things being less successful when theyre badly adapted to a new medium.

Examples of BAD conversions, are not evidence that conversion is impossible.

Not to mention MW Living Legends is a great example of how better to translate it to a game.

They were limited by being amateurs. Thats it. The entire purpose was to make it as close to the Btech system as possible.

[Verdic Mckenna]

I feel like we're straddling a fine line between balance - and flushing Clan mechs down the toilet. If penalties are across the board? Fine. I accept that. If they are Clan only and I can't swap it out for a Standard? No way. At that point - your Clan mech is a ticking glue bomb.

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 September 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Clan engines may be fixed, but a lack of customized engine sizes is a good price to pay for a light engine that is approx. 33% more durable and a lot lighter, and I think takes up less crit space.

A lack of modifiable engine sizes is a bummer, but the one engine you do get is amazingly better than the IS XL or IS standard in multiple areas.

Again, I would like to see a small penalty for a side torso loss. I would also like to see engine critical hits anyway across the board (IS and Clan).

[KraftySOT]

If MWO was a direct copy of Living Legends, this would be more successful. I promise you.

For the same reason I promised people that the Punisher movie would be better than the one in the 80s. Simply because it stuck to the comics. At least all of the people who liked that comic, will show up, and bring some friends.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Actually...the Odyessy translated really well to a video game, as it did to a movie...

And whats cool about the movie, is that its not even the same content, but, IT KEEPS THE SAME CONCEPTS.

Pretty sure O Brother where Art though did pretty good.

Also theres I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, which is a game made by author Harlan Ellison, which directly translates one of his short stories.

I have gaggles of this ****. Telling a story is telling a story, regardless of the medium.

Providing a balanced game meant for humans to compete in, is the same regardless of the medium.

translating and copying word for word and including everything in it are two different things
You're saying yeah, they did good by keeping the concepts even though the content wasn't the same
That's exactly what MWO is to TT
You're saying we need every last bit of TT to be translated to MWO
But now you're going on about how, even the Odyssey game was somewhat similar, it was good even with out being the exact same thing as the book.
Bottom line, even though you refuse to admit it, TT does not translate well to real time

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

If MWO was a direct copy of Living Legends, this would be more successful. I promise you.

For the same reason I promised people that the Punisher movie would be better than the one in the 80s. Simply because it stuck to the comics. At least all of the people who liked that comic, will show up, and bring some friends.

so what you're saying is that if everything sticks to it's source material 100% then it's going to be the best thing ever?
No matter what?
Like I said earlier
Lord of the Rings is good, but nobody wants to sit though a 30 hour movie.
TT doesn't translate well to real time
deal with it.

[wanderer]

Ugh. This is one of those cases where a proper solution already exists- except that PGI has been remarkable in their ability to build things into "minimally viable" yet incomplete systems that hence lack the built-in balances from the start.

XL engines that lose a side torso should exhibit engine damage- just like they do in TT. That is, they add 1 heat/second on top of anything else while powered up. They don't lose engine heat sinks. They lose a significant chunk of the shielding that allows the engine to produce power with less waste heat. The actual power generation of an engine is not altered by loss of shielding.

Basically, an engine should have X amount of health. Losing a side torso is 66% of that (less any portion previously damaged before loss of side torso- you can't break the same thing twice). At 33%, it produces .5 heat/second additional, 66% 1 heat/second, 100% is shielding failure and a breach of the engine chamber- which is hard vacuum in order to function, causing engine failure and perm-shutdown.

-All engines should behave this way. XL or not, as they take damage.

A proper heat penalty system needs to go in. PGI has a crude "100% bad, 99% means nothing" system in right now. With an actual heat scale, crippling ghost heat systems aren't needed as hot-spiking 'Mechs would become sluggish, unresponsive targets when venting said 99% heat load.

Simply applying a "fix" like OP's to Clan XL engines ignores engine damage in general and the entire wall of omissions in the overheat system for MWO to boot.