307 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Lorokin, on 17 September 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

KraftySOT what rules version were you playing by in TT?

Clans mechs are "less" customize-able? Since when? If you played by the Master Rules at all, you'd know you can fully deck your mech out with ANY weapon under the sun, any engine, any equipment, all freely able to do IF you just made sure you kept within certain restrictions or requirements (ie. can't run single and double heat sinks in the same mech, etc).

Which is true of all mechs in the master rules, you could build mechs from scratch. Actually customizing a mech was severely restricted in Clan mechs. In the actual lore, as well as all the rules for tournaments, and actual people playing the game, you werent allowed to bring non stock mechs. This meant for clans you had 2 or 3 variants to pick from and a limited total supply of mechs. On the other hand the IS has literally hundreds of mechs to choose from, and multiple variants of each and every one.

The main advantage in head to head tournament play was being able to assemble any kind of force you wanted as the IS and the clan was stuck with his 30 or so choices and their variants.

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I would love for you to show me this idea that Clan mechs are "Less Customize-able". Because even in MWO this isn't the case, we have 'more' options then our IS counter-parts. I change a POD I get different options, you can't do that on the IS mechs currently in the game. If it's a missile hardpoint, it's a missile hardpoint, period. Unless you want to pony up and buy a different variant that "may" have a slightly different configuration. A single Timber Wolf can swap in and out POD's to suit whatever mood I'm in. They may not be "hugely" different but it's more options per mech, then IS mechs currently have.

which is a huge part of the problem

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Also, it's been pointed out and proven TT rules do not translate over to the video game arena for "perfect" balance, you're living in a dream world. Random dice was the 'major' factor that balanced the TT game, you don't have such randomness in a video game where I can aim at any body part, pull the trigger and hit the location I want to hit.

No because its never been done.

You dont HAVE to aim at any body part in a video game. There are literally thousands of games that dont let you aim directly at something.

Two great examples of systems, World of Warcraft, and World of Tanks. Neither give you an ability to target with pinpoint accuracy the other player. Both games (and a plethora of other games) do this. Even FPS. Even your weapons in counter strike are not perfectly accurate.

This idea you have that it IS to be like this is insane. And wrong.

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If you role back the weapon nerfs on the Clan tech, you wouldn't see less, you'd see more whining. Why? Because people who are playing this game are playing the Meta, they're not following Clan rules of combat, everyone's playing the hide and peek game. Which is not "Lore" faithful.

So make them play lore faithful. Not that hard either. All of these things are solved if you carry over the entire TT rules.

You know what happens in a TT game if the clan player stops playing like a clanner? He gets booted out of the game.

Problem solved.

The TT solves all.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Verdic Mckenna, on 17 September 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

I feel like we're straddling a fine line between balance - and flushing Clan mechs down the toilet. If penalties are across the board? Fine. I accept that. If they are Clan only and I can't swap it out for a Standard? No way. At that point - your Clan mech is a ticking glue bomb.

That's being a bit over dramatic don't you think?

Never mind, I don't really want an answer. I've said my opinion, its time to bail this thread. Lol

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

so what you're saying is that if everything sticks to it's source material 100% then it's going to be the best thing ever?
No matter what?
Like I said earlier
Lord of the Rings is good, but nobody wants to sit though a 30 hour movie.
TT doesn't translate well to real time
deal with it.

Yes they do.

With all the special features added in plus the extra scenes, the entire collection is coming in over 20 hours and people watch it all the time. Same with the entire star wars series.

You know what NO ONE is watching?

The Star Wars re-edits put out by lucas that have han doing different stuff and phony CGI.

Theres entire reddits dedicated to how bad Lucas screwed his fans by releasing that crap that departs from the original.

[Prezimonto]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

IF the Omni is hot enough, it should shut down. Say you are riding the heat curve, Take an engine hit...+15% heat Shut down.

ONLY it should not be Clan only. It needs to be game wide.

I can't agree enough. IS XL engines are still too prevalent/good compared to standard on almost every mech.

[Verdic Mckenna]

In competition if I see a Clan mech and this change has occured - i'm going to aim for your torso's at range - or employ LRM's with TAG & NARC. I'm going to slow down your assaults and heavies - or identify laser boats - and the practice would be to gimp the lot of you. What do I have to fear from a buncha half movement, double heat, gimped chassis' that can't fire as efficiently as me and cannot pursue me?

That isn't over dramatic. It's a possible scenario. Rather than insult me - maybe you can offer some sort of suggestion.

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 September 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

That's being a bit over dramatic don't you think?

Never mind, I don't really want an answer. I've said my opinion, its time to bail this thread. Lol

Edited by Verdic Mckenna, 17 September 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

The TT solves all.

You're ideas and examples are utterly terrible

[DasSibby]

What happens when a IS mech loses a XL side torso?

Oh that's right. It dies.

(Not advocating the same thing for Clan Mechs, but there should be something to offset the complete advantage of Clans in this regard. And I LIKE dueling clanners in my IS mechs!)

[KraftySOT]

It absolutely translates well to real time. Its just not being translated well to real time.

The simpliest thing they could do is Make your weapons miss. They can accomplish this in every other FPS in the world, why are everything rail guns? That was the worst addition to quake 3, and why tournaments in the Esport work still used quake 2 (the best balanced FPS of all time). The pinpoint instagib rail gun.

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

You're ideas and examples are utterly terrible

I have no ideas that havent already been presented by people who are getting voted onto the council and the same ideas the #savemwo guys had.

So my ideas are right on the money.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Ok, one last thing as a food for thought.

If an XL engine just came out for IS mechs that was lighter, smaller, and could survive a side torso loss, I would take it in a heartbeat. Even if it only came in one size and was a bit bigger or smaller than I liked. I'd live with that for the extra survivability. Even if when I lost a side torso I moved a bit slower and generated a bit more heat.

Sounds good to me.

[Lootee]

If the +10 heat buildup was gradual and Betty gave a warning:

'Warning engine shielding 66% compromised. Temperature increasing'

Before it went into full effect players would have time to take precautions and try to cool down. Any heat penalty or cooling reduction from loss of engine crits should not be instantaneous.

[KraftySOT]

Heat, 30 scale.

Radar, passive and active.

Convergence...gone.

Ghost heat. Gone.

Engine changing. Gone.

Hardpoints. Gone.

Lrms, 5 damage groups, RNG controls how many hit

Effects from heat, per the TT

Armor values, TT

Weapon values, TT

ECM function, TT

Indirect fire...TT


All of the problems you complain about would be fixed.

8 PPC Stalkers?

120 heat?

You just died firing them.

Poptarts? never happen again.

ECM cloud? No more.

Lrmaggedon? Never see it again.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Yes they do.

With all the special features added in plus the extra scenes, the entire collection is coming in over 20 hours and people watch it all the time. Same with the entire star wars series.

You know what NO ONE is watching?

The Star Wars re-edits put out by lucas that have han doing different stuff and phony CGI.

Theres entire reddits dedicated to how bad Lucas screwed his fans by releasing that crap that departs from the original.

I've seen the director's cut and they don't go over every single thing they do in the books, that's my point.
In the LoTR books Strider carries the shards of Narsil with him at all time, in the movie, the sword is hanging out on a statue.
A minor change, but it had an effect on the story.
If they followed the books word for word those movies wouldn't have been as successful as they were

[KraftySOT]

This:

Malleus011, on 16 September 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

The issues, IMHO.


Major Issues:

• Ghost Heat: A widely hated solution to the boating of PP FLD weapons. It partially fixed the problem, but really pushed players to other combinations to do the same thing. A complex issue which will likely require a comprehensive solution.
  
• Low Time-to-Kill: Nearly unlimited customization of IS 'mechs and PP FLD weapons have created very low time-to-kill in most matches. This is very discouraging for new players and doesn't fit the desired 'feel' of giant robot battlefield combat.
  
• Weak Jump Jets: 'Pop-tarting' - using JJ's to perform a low jump and firing at the apex with PP FLD weapons provoked the change that severely under-powered Jump Jets. Current JJ's are far, far short of Canon jump distances and are really only useful for climbing hills and low obstacles. Restoring JJ's to full tactical mobility while not reintroducing pop-tart sniping would be desirable.
  
• ECM: This 1.5 ton module is quite powerful for its weight, and a 'no brainer' to always take when possible. Though not as important in elite team play, lack of ECM in the general que can be a serious issue. Extremely confusing for new players.
  
• Lack of Community Warfare: a reason to keep playing.
  
• Lack of Role Warfare: all 'mechs are essentially combat 'mechs. There is minimal scouting, skirmishing, or other tasks to complete in matches.
  
• Lack of Game Modes/Mission types: We effectively have three flavors of Deathmatch.
  
• Lack of Maps: We have a very small number of maps, many plagued with errors like invisible walls and movement blockers.

Minor Issues:

• Gauss Charge: Nerfed because the combination circumvented Ghost Heat and was extremely powerful. Seriously penalizes 'mechs which rely on a single Gauss. While many players adapted to the charge mechanic, a significant portion of the player base simply abandoned the Gauss rifle entirely. Gauss boating become a problem with Clans and led to a limit of two GR's charging at once. The charge is not canon and faintly ridiculous to 'charge' a weapon which explodes when critted because it is holding a charge ...
  
• PPC speed nerf: Again, imposed because of PP FLD optimization. Seriously penalizes 'mechs which rely on a single PPC.
  
• Victor and Highlander agility nerfs: Imposed due to pop tart meta, now merely makes the chassis sluggish. A minor issue, but should be reverted or at the very least cut in half.
  
• LRMs: MWO struggles with LRM implementation, because general que LRM boating can be extremely effective. Inexperienced players have difficulty coping with the indirect fire mechanic, while elite players rarely bother with such a 'weak' weapons system.
  
• Obsolete Skill system: Many of the Elite skills don't even work. Ideally, this should be reworked with mutually exclusive trees and smaller, more numerous benefits.
  
• The Grind: Buying three chassis of a single type to allow mastery creates a long, expensive grind. Removing the 'three chassis' requirement would make the game more friendly to new players.
  
• High Prices: Many players feel that the prices of Hero 'mechs and cosmetic items such as paints and patterns are too high, and that there are no true 'micro-transaction' options.

Personal Gripes:

• I don't like the modules system; it isn't canon. Why can't we have manufacturer quirks for various parts and pilot/technician skills instead?
  
• Lack of soul/character: The game treats itself like a game. I don't feel like a mechwarrior dropping into missions, I feel like a gamer loading up a deathmatch.
  
• Lack of insignia and canon skins: Why can't I paint and mark my 'mech properly? I'm part of the 10th Skye Rangers, AFFC, but there's no Skye Rangers skin, no LCAF or AFFC insignia, no Ranger's badge ...
  
• No Urbanmech!

And the single biggest issue which MWO struggles with:

• Pinpoint accuracy and front-loaded damage: As can be seen by the above topics, PP FLD has driven many of the nerfs in the game. There have been dozens of good suggestions for alternatives - reticle sway, cone-of-fire, convergence, etc. Many of which could work; but which one? And how to win over the die-hard players who like PP FLD gameplay? This is probably the single biggest root cause of MWO's balance troubles. Fixing THIS issue could easily allow the REMOVAL of most of the above list.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Verdic Mckenna, on 17 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

That isn't over dramatic. It's a possible scenario. Rather than insult me - maybe you can offer some sort of suggestion.

An observation is not an insult.

I'm not knocking your character, I'm noticing your stating an absolute extreme for the sake of trying to make a point in your favor. That is something that also isn't terribly constructive.

I actually have been posting constructive and fair opinions. You may not like them, but it doesn't mean they aren't constructive.

See, knew this thread was quicksand. Just traps a person and doesn't let go. Lol.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I've seen the director's cut and they don't go over every single thing they do in the books, that's my point.
In the LoTR books Strider carries the shards of Narsil with him at all time, in the movie, the sword is hanging out on a statue.
A minor change, but it had an effect on the story.
If they followed the books word for word those movies wouldn't have been as successful as they were

But were not talking about tiny trivial changes. Were not talking about the medium laser having 4 heat instead of 3, were talking about MASSIVE changes, and deficits in the translation.

Namely being pinpoint accuracy and all the **** added and nerfed in the game as a result.

Even in COD your weapons arent that accurate. All the people chiding each other over being COD-esque players...the COD players have it harder than you!

The TT fixes all of that.

Theres tons of easy ways to make you not be able to hit exactly what you aim at, without pissing you off.

Millions of guys running around spraying MP5s at each other cant be wrong.

All the WOT guys cant be wrong...

Very simple change and it instantly makes this game better.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

It absolutely translates well to real time. Its just not being translated well to real time.

The simpliest thing they could do is Make your weapons miss. They can accomplish this in every other FPS in the world, why are everything rail guns? That was the worst addition to quake 3, and why tournaments in the Esport work still used quake 2 (the best balanced FPS of all time). The pinpoint instagib rail gun.




I have no ideas that havent already been presented by people who are getting voted onto the council and the same ideas the #savemwo guys had.

So my ideas are right on the money.

I was part of Save#MWO and nobody said "hey, lets throw out everything and just makes this TT"
you want TT values without a dice roll?
In TT a single gauss hit hurts as much as a double gauss in game and your solution is "make them miss"
sure....

[Lootee]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I've seen the director's cut and they don't go over every single thing they do in the books, that's my point.
In the LoTR books Strider carries the shards of Narsil with him at all time, in the movie, the sword is hanging out on a statue.
A minor change, but it had an effect on the story.
If they followed the books word for word those movies wouldn't have been as successful as they were

Clan mechs were never meant to be able to shrug off 66% catastrophic damage to their engines with no ill effects whatsoever. This is not a minor oversight or poetic license.

This is Aragorn cutting Arwen's head off and waving it in Elrond's face while screaming 'Come at me bro!'

[KraftySOT]

Even in the cheap rip offs like Hawken and Titanfall...youre not that accurate.

Thats a design decisions and a design FAILING.

If you interpret the TT better, you know that weapons arent this accurate and that ECM doesnt work like that, and LRMS arent that effective, and boating is rare because of heat.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

likening MWO to Cod

Not you're talking about a cone of fire, but when you ADS you can hit whatever you want in range.
CoD never had RNG dice rolls
TT would translate well in an RTS and Tactics failed, but not a shooter like MWO.

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 12:03 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

I was part of Save#MWO and nobody said "hey, lets throw out everything and just makes this TT"
you want TT values without a dice roll?
In TT a single gauss hit hurts as much as a double gauss in game and your solution is "make them miss"
sure....

Youre most likely going to miss in the TT...why not here?

Youre running, theyre running, theres some light woods in the way. You miss.

In MWO your running means nothing, their running basically means nothing, unless theyre rubber banding in a light, and theres no light woods at all.

So? Its not even coming close to a translation. Its a completely different game.

And every solution the #savemwo crowd had, was based on the TT.

I didnt just come up with the pinpoint accuracy covergence problem all on my own you know. Thank Homeless Bill, Konivig and those guys. Stjobe.

Everyone with a Btech Purist tag.

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Not you're talking about a cone of fire, but when you ADS you can hit whatever you want in range.
CoD never had RNG dice rolls
TT would translate well in an RTS and Tactics failed, but not a shooter like MWO.

THAT IS A RNG DICE ROLL.

For ***** sake man how do you think the backend determines where each shot goes within the cone?

ITS A RNG.