307 replies to this topic

[Destructicus]

Lootee, on 17 September 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

Clan mechs were never meant to be able to shrug off 66% catastrophic damage to their engines with no ill effects whatsoever. This is not a minor oversight or poetic license.

This is Aragorn cutting Arwen's head off and waving it in Elrond's face while screaming 'Come at me bro!'

more like Frodo getting caught by the spider and still being able to run away scott free, it's not changing the flow of the story, just minor details

[Kassatsu]

DV McKenna, on 17 September 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Is the extra heat not coming from the fact they just lost half their engine heat sinks?

As opposed to giving them extra extra heat which is just stupid.

Actually I'm not sure if you lose any engine heat sinks at all when you lose a side torso, it's quite possible they're all considered as being in the CT. Though ghost ghost heat with double the penalties and half the activation requirements after losing a side torso is an excellent idea and should be implemented in the next patch, today if possible. Because losing half your firepower and being a few small laser sweeps away from death isn't enough already.

[KraftySOT]

It absolutely would translate well into a shooter.

Youre just freaking obtuse.

Every tom clancy game has a reticle that converges slowly, and uses a RNG to determine your shots accuracy.

Great shooters.

Counterstrike....great shooter.

Battlefield....great shooter.

None of them have pin point accuracy.

Infact its more likely to say that pin point accuracy makes a BAD SHOOTER.

And youre not offering evidence, youre just saying, over and over, doesnt translate well with your fingers in your ears.

What we have now ISNT VERY GOOD. Were bleeding players and the game is on life support ffs. You got here BECAUSE of the straying of the TT...now you just keep repeating "it doesnt translate well"

While im looking at old Mech2, NetBT 3025, and Living Legends just agape.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Youre most likely going to miss in the TT...why not here?

Youre running, theyre running, theres some light woods in the way. You miss.

In MWO your running means nothing, their running basically means nothing, unless theyre rubber banding in a light, and theres no light woods at all.

So? Its not even coming close to a translation. Its a completely different game.

And every solution the #savemwo crowd had, was based on the TT.

I didnt just come up with the pinpoint accuracy covergence problem all on my own you know. Thank Homeless Bill, Konivig and those guys. Stjobe.

Everyone with a Btech Purist tag.




THAT IS A RNG DICE ROLL.

For ***** sake man how do you think the backend determines where each shot goes within the cone?

ITS A RNG.

cone of fire is not RNG.....
RNG was to take into account the TT pilot's skill, but that's not how it works here
We can actually point our mouse at what we want to shoot and actually pull the trigger here
The Convergence thing is an issue all in itself.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

cone of fire is not RNG.....
RNG was to take into account the TT pilot's skill, but that's not how it works here
We can actually point our mouse at what we want to shoot and actually pull the trigger here
The Convergence thing is an issue all in itself.

Yes it absolutely is.

How do you think they determine where in the cone, the shot goes? I assume you know nothing about coding, but you can look this up on google.

Its called a Random Number Generator.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

It absolutely would translate well into a shooter.

Youre just freaking obtuse.

Every tom clancy game has a reticle that converges slowly, and uses a RNG to determine your shots accuracy.

Great shooters.

Counterstrike....great shooter.

Battlefield....great shooter.

None of them have pin point accuracy.

Infact its more likely to say that pin point accuracy makes a BAD SHOOTER.

And youre not offering evidence, youre just saying, over and over, doesnt translate well with your fingers in your ears.

What we have now ISNT VERY GOOD. Were bleeding players and the game is on life support ffs. You got here BECAUSE of the straying of the TT...now you just keep repeating "it doesnt translate well"

While im looking at old Mech2, NetBT 3025, and Living Legends just agape.

That's a completely different mechanic, RNG in this game would be "my shot hits", did it do 10 or 20 damage?"
What's not random is when I stop moving, aim and shoot, that first shot is going to go where I want it to go
It's not gonna spray all over the place.
You're likening MWO to shooters with recoil
Just face it, the game is never going to TT, and many people smarter than you have explained why.

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 12:13 PM.

[KraftySOT]

And your ability to point the mouse is slowed by the game design. The arms are detached. Theres upgrades to your torso twist and arm movement, even your covergence.

All this stuff is IN the game, its just not properly utilized to the effect it has in the TT, and if it was, it would solve a cavalcade of other problems:

Malleus011, on 16 September 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

The issues, IMHO.


Major Issues:

• Ghost Heat: A widely hated solution to the boating of PP FLD weapons. It partially fixed the problem, but really pushed players to other combinations to do the same thing. A complex issue which will likely require a comprehensive solution.
  
• Low Time-to-Kill: Nearly unlimited customization of IS 'mechs and PP FLD weapons have created very low time-to-kill in most matches. This is very discouraging for new players and doesn't fit the desired 'feel' of giant robot battlefield combat.
  
• Weak Jump Jets: 'Pop-tarting' - using JJ's to perform a low jump and firing at the apex with PP FLD weapons provoked the change that severely under-powered Jump Jets. Current JJ's are far, far short of Canon jump distances and are really only useful for climbing hills and low obstacles. Restoring JJ's to full tactical mobility while not reintroducing pop-tart sniping would be desirable.
  
• ECM: This 1.5 ton module is quite powerful for its weight, and a 'no brainer' to always take when possible. Though not as important in elite team play, lack of ECM in the general que can be a serious issue. Extremely confusing for new players.
  
• Lack of Community Warfare: a reason to keep playing.
  
• Lack of Role Warfare: all 'mechs are essentially combat 'mechs. There is minimal scouting, skirmishing, or other tasks to complete in matches.
  
• Lack of Game Modes/Mission types: We effectively have three flavors of Deathmatch.
  
• Lack of Maps: We have a very small number of maps, many plagued with errors like invisible walls and movement blockers.

Minor Issues:

• Gauss Charge: Nerfed because the combination circumvented Ghost Heat and was extremely powerful. Seriously penalizes 'mechs which rely on a single Gauss. While many players adapted to the charge mechanic, a significant portion of the player base simply abandoned the Gauss rifle entirely. Gauss boating become a problem with Clans and led to a limit of two GR's charging at once. The charge is not canon and faintly ridiculous to 'charge' a weapon which explodes when critted because it is holding a charge ...
  
• PPC speed nerf: Again, imposed because of PP FLD optimization. Seriously penalizes 'mechs which rely on a single PPC.
  
• Victor and Highlander agility nerfs: Imposed due to pop tart meta, now merely makes the chassis sluggish. A minor issue, but should be reverted or at the very least cut in half.
  
• LRMs: MWO struggles with LRM implementation, because general que LRM boating can be extremely effective. Inexperienced players have difficulty coping with the indirect fire mechanic, while elite players rarely bother with such a 'weak' weapons system.
  
• Obsolete Skill system: Many of the Elite skills don't even work. Ideally, this should be reworked with mutually exclusive trees and smaller, more numerous benefits.
  
• The Grind: Buying three chassis of a single type to allow mastery creates a long, expensive grind. Removing the 'three chassis' requirement would make the game more friendly to new players.
  
• High Prices: Many players feel that the prices of Hero 'mechs and cosmetic items such as paints and patterns are too high, and that there are no true 'micro-transaction' options.

Personal Gripes:

• I don't like the modules system; it isn't canon. Why can't we have manufacturer quirks for various parts and pilot/technician skills instead?
  
• Lack of soul/character: The game treats itself like a game. I don't feel like a mechwarrior dropping into missions, I feel like a gamer loading up a deathmatch.
  
• Lack of insignia and canon skins: Why can't I paint and mark my 'mech properly? I'm part of the 10th Skye Rangers, AFFC, but there's no Skye Rangers skin, no LCAF or AFFC insignia, no Ranger's badge ...
  
• No Urbanmech!

And the single biggest issue which MWO struggles with:

• Pinpoint accuracy and front-loaded damage: As can be seen by the above topics, PP FLD has driven many of the nerfs in the game. There have been dozens of good suggestions for alternatives - reticle sway, cone-of-fire, convergence, etc. Many of which could work; but which one? And how to win over the die-hard players who like PP FLD gameplay? This is probably the single biggest root cause of MWO's balance troubles. Fixing THIS issue could easily allow the REMOVAL of most of the above list.

[Verdic Mckenna]

Just like a ... wait for it... GOOD BOOK. Get it? ;D

Ok - so my scenario's are extreme. But are they truly implausible? Tell me intelligent Inner Sphere pilots won't bite down on this weak spot like a starved full grown python.

MeiSooHaityu, on 17 September 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

An observation is not an insult.

I'm not knocking your character, I'm noticing your stating an absolute extreme for the sake of trying to make a point in your favor. That is something that also isn't terribly constructive.

I actually have been posting constructive and fair opinions. You may not like them, but it doesn't mean they aren't constructive.

See, knew this thread was quicksand. Just traps a person and doesn't let go. Lol.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

That's a completely different mechanic, RNG would be "my shot hits, did it do 10 or 20 damage?"
You're likening MWO to shooters with recoil
Just face it, the game is never going to TT, and many people smarter than you have explained why.

Now thats not how a RNG works.

Thats how that SYSTEM using a RNG works.

A RNG doesnt determine those things unless you task it to do so.

In Call of Duty when you aim at the guy and pull the trigger, where the raytrace that comes out of your guns model and goes in the game world, is determined at random within a set of parameters, by a RNG.

Thats why when you pull the trigger in those games, the bullet is always randomly somewhere within your accuracy cone, which is dynamic based on things like crouching and moving.

This is because this stuff is based on real life. Just like the FASA system for battletech.

When you CHOOSE to make all the weapons 100% accurate and convergence dynamically on a single spot, youre making a DESIGN DECISION to depart the lore and battletech TT rules.

Youre interpeting how that would be in real life...and youre wrong.

The TT solves all.

[Lootee]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

more like Frodo getting caught by the spider and still being able to run away scott free, it's not changing the flow of the story, just minor details

Except in this case it does change the flow of the story. You can build a mech with all of its guns on the right side and use your left arm and torso as a shield. When they pop, who cares? You are still at 100% effectiveness and can carry the team. When you should be suffering from heat and movement penalties and operating in diminished capacity.

[KraftySOT]

And all of the people smarter than I who have said so, have said so based on one principle:

No one will do it. Not because it wouldnt be fun, or because it wouldnt sell, but simply because its a small kicked around IP and no one will take that chance.

Eventually someone will.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Now thats not how a RNG works.

Thats how that SYSTEM using a RNG works.

A RNG doesnt determine those things unless you task it to do so.

In Call of Duty when you aim at the guy and pull the trigger, where the raytrace that comes out of your guns model and goes in the game world, is determined at random within a set of parameters, by a RNG.

Thats why when you pull the trigger in those games, the bullet is always randomly somewhere within your accuracy cone, which is dynamic based on things like crouching and moving.

This is because this stuff is based on real life. Just like the FASA system for battletech.

When you CHOOSE to make all the weapons 100% accurate and convergence dynamically on a single spot, youre making a DESIGN DECISION to depart the lore and battletech TT rules.

Youre interpeting how that would be in real life...and youre wrong.

The TT solves all.

if you're such a slave to lore and TT you'd know that targeting computers and such compensate for the mech's movement when firing.
But I digress
the reason it wouldn't magically fix everything is because it would turn off a lot of people
Hit reg is already bad enough, you wanna throw RNG determined hits into the mix?
Your solution is short sighted.

[KraftySOT]

The only reason lasers do damage over time, is because some knucklehead 15 years ago decided lasers were too powerful, and did that, instead of decreasing recycle time and correcting the heat scale.

So you cant defend these decisions that have been made when the root of the problem is ages old and is dependent on another system.

Here you need to read these:

http://www.brainpick...kit-carl-sagan/

Namely:

• If there’s a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) — not just most of them.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

And all of the people smarter than I who have said so, have said so based on one principle:

No one will do it. Not because it wouldnt be fun, or because it wouldnt sell, but simply because its a small kicked around IP and no one will take that chance.

Eventually someone will.

I like how you cite people smarter than you agreeing with you to make your point.
It's already been established TT won't magically fix everything the way you think it does.

[KraftySOT]

Your chain of arguments is based on changes that were made, by choice, 10 years ago or more.

Theres no reason you cant change them.

Theres also no basis for them being that way other than random design decisions.

Its not like the Mechwarrior 2 or 3 teams, made a TT copy game, decided it sucked, and then made what they made.

No...they decided themselves, that a TT game wasnt viable given their circumstances, and made what they made.

There is absolutely nothing in the physical or philosophical world that says that a TT true Mechwarrior title would suck. Nothing.

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

I like how you cite people smarter than you agreeing with you to make your point.
It's already been established TT won't magically fix everything the way you think it does.

Thats impossible.

Thats like saying its been established you cant split an atom, without ever doing the experiment.

There has never been a TT attempt, therefor you cant know any better than I or anyone else knows.

There is no established authority.

http://www.brainpick...kit-carl-sagan/

I call BS.

• Arguments from authority carry little weight — “authorities” have made mistakes in the past. They will do so again in the future. Perhaps a better way to say it is that in science there are no authorities; at most, there are experts.

[Destructicus]

Even the creators of battletech have admitted that the implementation of clans was all wrong.
You hold it in such reverence you fail to see the big picture, the simple fact that an RTS can not work the same way as it does in a FPS where you actually control where your round goes.

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[HlynkaCG]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Yes it absolutely is.

How do you think they determine where in the cone, the shot goes? I assume you know nothing about coding, but you can look this up on google.

Its called a Random Number Generator.

2 random numbers actually. X deviation and Y deviation.

[KraftySOT]

However as EVIDENCE....i present that ALL previous mechwarrior PC games have been in various states of TT adherence.

By sales figures...the ones MOST TT, have done the best.

And theyve all done better than MWO.

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Even the creators of battletech have admitted that the implementation of clans was all wrong.
You hold it in such reverence you fail to see the big picture, the simple fact that an RTS can not work the same way as it does in a FPS where you actually control where your round goes.

:facepalm:

Youre so dense.

In no other FPS shooter can you choose where your round goes. That defense isnt a defense. That is a SYSTEM, that can be changed.

If there was NO POSSIBLE WAY to keep someone from aiming at a CT specifically, sure youd be correct.

Unfortunately for your argument, there are no less than 20 ways to accomplish that feat in a first person shooter. The easiest ones being brought from FPS RPGs, FPS shooters, and Flightsims. Namely innaccuracy built into the system.

HlynkaCG, on 17 September 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

2 random numbers actually. X deviation and Y deviation.

Exactly.

Thats all this game needs to fix that problem and make it like the TT.

Then youre aiming at the CT, and you hit the RT.

Problem solved.

Next problem when would be ghost heat since you dont need that anymore, and getting us to a 30 heat scale so boating isnt very prominent.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Your chain of arguments is based on changes that were made, by choice, 10 years ago or more.

Theres no reason you cant change them.

Theres also no basis for them being that way other than random design decisions.

Its not like the Mechwarrior 2 or 3 teams, made a TT copy game, decided it sucked, and then made what they made.

No...they decided themselves, that a TT game wasnt viable given their circumstances, and made what they made.

There is absolutely nothing in the physical or philosophical world that says that a TT true Mechwarrior title would suck. Nothing.

There has never been a TT attempt, therefor you cant know any better than I or anyone else knows.

There is no established authority.

Have you ever actually played Mw3?
That was the closest to TT
It was fun yeah, but it was incredibly unbalanced, Clan mechs were ridiculously op
You fail to realize that in TT Clans are actually way more OP and people would be more upset than they are now.
IN TT clans were in every way better than IS
And you think that will fix the game and that magic RNG roles will balance everything out?

[KraftySOT]

Now im sure someone who ENJOYS poptarting will be upset.

But who cares?

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Have you ever actually played Mw3?
That was the closest to TT
It was fun yeah, but it was incredibly unbalanced, Clan mechs were ridiculously op
You fail to realize that in TT Clans are actually way more OP and people would be more upset than they are now.
IN TT clans were in every way better than IS
And you think that will fix the game and that magic RNG roles will balance everything out?

Nope. ACs in streams, bad weapon ranges, first one to add in extended ranges, had no explosions, crit system wasnt different, introduced laser burn times.

You have no idea what yorue talking about

Mech 2 was the closest because all it dealt with were clan mechs. It was all downhill from there. Mech2 Mercs was great I guess, but still, had some of the issues.

Also MW3 was the first to throw away the 10 second recycle on most systems and changed the way LRMS worked.

Its crap.