307 replies to this topic

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

DarthRevis, on 17 September 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Please show me where Russ said that.....

He said that 10V12 would not work with their current system. He also stated that he wanted the Clan and IS mechs to be balanced but different. Never said he didn't want IS mechs to be the underdogs. But the problem with that is not many people want to play for the side that is suppose to lose.

It's not just that, my of the IS mechs are still wicked good. I still roll my Victors and Highlanders and Atlas and Griffons and Jenners and Battelmasters and Awesomes and still wreck clan tech.

VTR-9B
HGN-733C
HEAVY METAL
AS7-D-DC
GRF-3M
JR7-F
BLR-1G
AWS-8Q


The huge disparity comes from (C) mechs. Which not only are they bad, but their pilots are bad too. Now that there are two clan mechs on trial, I take shots when I see a stock prime blow itself up. And I cry a little when I see a stock Kit Fox.

Good IS pilots know the limitations of their mechs and how to take down clan mechs. Well built IS mechs focus on massive PPFLD then get get back into cover, or they build brawlers that ambush clan mechs at short range where they have difficulty disengaging to vent all the heat from their laser banks.

My DDC is still my best Whaler, and on maps like River City or Frozen City where I can alley cat ambush clan mechs, I rake in the kills. On maps like Alpine, I've got to figure out how to get on top while not being picked apart at range.


Do Clan mechs need a little adjustment? Yeah, a LITTLE adjustment. And their Lasers need some TLC too.

IS mechs need a LOT of adjustment. And I mean a LOT. The good IS chassis are still on par with clan mechs if not better:
Spider > Kit Fox
Jenner, Firestarter > Badder
Cent, Hunchy > Nova
Cataphract > Suckonner
Stalker, Battlemaster > Peace Dove
Atlas == Direwhale

The only two clan mechs without equal are the Timberwolf and the Stormcrow. An unnerfed Victor would be the Timberwolf's equal and Stormcrow is just a solid medium mech. The Griffon and Wolverine can do a few things better than the Stormcrow, but the Stormcrow is just better all-round than the IS 55 tonners.


EDIT: I forgot a sentence.

The clan mechs just make the sh*t-tier IS mechs like the Dragon, the Thunderthud, and the non-3L Ravens even ********.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 17 September 2014 - 01:25 PM.

[Bront]

gavilatius, on 17 September 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

on clan XL side torso loss

-15% movement speed
-10% heat dissipation/cap
all "Pocketed" internal engine heatsinks are still inside

In theory, it's closer to a 25% speed penalty, and 10 points of additional heat generated (IE, enough heat to nullify 10 standard heat sinks) on TT. I'd have no problem with.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

I could start the "I spent hundreds of dollars" pissing contest with you, I actually was banned, but recently unbanned after an appeal to Russ

I am a hardcore fan of BT and I still oppose the TT idea
They're not trying to be niche, they're trying to appeal to a broader spectrum of players as well as fans
the easiest way to do that is to pitch the TT notions aside and make a game that appeals to both sides

Yet thats the complete opposite of what they said when they funded the game, and the complete opposite of what they just said in the town hall where new player experience is the lowest possible thing on their priority list, and that loyal diehard fans are what theyre working with right now.

You seem half parts troll, and half parts completely disenfranchised.

Ill bet if I talked to you a year ago youd be saying the same things im saying now. You sound more disillusioned than anything else, and thats why youre making weak arguments in the fashion that you are. "They cant" "It wont" "Never happen"

Somewhere deep down, you know this isnt a battletech game, and you know that theres no reason it isnt, other than the design decisions made by the team making it, and it has nothing to do with a direct battletech translation not being fun to play, and everything to do with you just assuming itll never happen because it never has.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

I see you didnt become a founder or buy some insanely large pack of mechs.

Do you not see my Masakari tag?
i didn't buy into the founders because money was tight at the time
I'm the kind of customer you're referring to, but yet, somehow, I still oppose your idea and because I do, I'm somehow a troll?

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 01:20 PM.

[KraftySOT]

And I have to hope, even though im sure its foolish...that what PGI said during the funding period was spot on, and their intention, and that the publisher, who was largely responsible for new players and advertising and decisions that would bring in more players, were the ones nailing all these bad choices to the wall.

No one who ever played the TT thinks Ghost Heat was the right way to handle that situation.

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Do you not see my Masakari tag?
i didn't buy into the founders because money was tight at the time
I'm the kind of customer you're referring to, but yet, somehow, I still oppose your idea and because I do, I'm somehow a troll?

Yes, because the kind of customer I just described, regularly on this forum, advocates the same things I advocate.

They arent even my ideas...im just ripping off the well written articles by like Homeless Bill and Stjobe.

30 heat scale, lrm fix, convergence fix, clan unnerfs, proper radar warfare, ecm fix, this is all par for the course.

I never said, lets take aiming entirely out of hte hands of players, but I did say do every single suggestion made by these TT players, based on the TT.

Theyre great ideas. Your ideas are non existent. So theres that.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

And I have to hope, even though im sure its foolish...that what PGI said during the funding period was spot on, and their intention, and that the publisher, who was largely responsible for new players and advertising and decisions that would bring in more players, were the ones nailing all these bad choices to the wall.

No one who ever played the TT thinks Ghost Heat was the right way to handle that situation.



Yes, because the kind of customer I just described, regularly on this forum, advocates the same things I advocate.

They arent even my ideas...im just ripping off the well written articles by like Homeless Bill and Stjobe.

30 heat scale, lrm fix, convergence fix, clan unnerfs, proper radar warfare, ecm fix, this is all par for the course.

I never said, lets take aiming entirely out of hte hands of players, but I did say do every single suggestion made by these TT players, based on the TT.

Theyre great ideas. Your ideas are non existent. So theres that.

and most of that can be achieved without 100% adherence to TT which is something you refuse to realize.

[KraftySOT]

Theres no reason we have a heat scale that bears no resemblence to the TT whatsoever. Its not even an approximation its an entirely different system.

Youve got this communities best and brightest all suggesting the same 30 heat scale. Its crazy you dont seem to notice that.

You dont seem to even know what a game that would be a TT translation would be like anymore? Its not THAT different, its just minus alot of the bad decisions that have driven away players.

We didnt GAIN players because of ghost heat. That was a net loss.

No one was sitting on the side line saying, man id play MWO but that poptarting...no way.

No one was not ever going to spend money, then ghost heat was added, and then they all of a sudden shelled out 400 bucks.

The only people who do this are the hardcore fans, who overwhemingly want a more TT inspired game.

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

and most of that can be achieved without 100% adherence to TT which is something you refuse to realize.

Ill settle for 90%

Were not even breaking the 50% mark currently.

Things I dont want to see translate over? Short list:

Headshot insta kills
Falling only half implemented (if I cant spin around and shoot and crawl...then no)
Artillery
Vibrabombs as they are in the TT

And we bloody have artillery

If you cant blow up the long toms...they shouldnt be relevant to the match. I always hated off board artillery. It was lazy because if you had enough map sheets, it should be ON the map.

Id like to see skidding on pavement...and running into buildings...engines going critical about 1 in 10, par for the course in TT, and id like to see physical attacks of course...but thats just a pipe dream.

[DasaDevil]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

stuff

So play tabletop

[KraftySOT]

And ill settle obviously for no search lights, inferno ammo, tanks or infantry, none of the maxtech stuff (because its lame anyways, but id never deny it to someone who liked it) through armor criticals, going prone, or PSR.

So even at my level of 100% its still not 100%. Ill grant you that.

But at least 100% with what we have thats actually programable in a video game. Clearly were not getting tripping, clubbing or an Axeman any time this century.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Engine shielding is not dampening the heat from the engine. And computers are just not good in insane heat! Play the game with the furnace on max in a closet see how well YOU, and your computer functions.

Well, I've been playing for the last few weeks with a dead CPU fan and core temperatures reaching 94 degrees centigrade. So, .

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Theres no reason we have a heat scale that bears no resemblence to the TT whatsoever. Its not even an approximation its an entirely different system.

Youve got this communities best and brightest all suggesting the same 30 heat scale. Its crazy you dont seem to notice that.

You dont seem to even know what a game that would be a TT translation would be like anymore? Its not THAT different, its just minus alot of the bad decisions that have driven away players.

We didnt GAIN players because of ghost heat. That was a net loss.

No one was sitting on the side line saying, man id play MWO but that poptarting...no way.

No one was not ever going to spend money, then ghost heat was added, and then they all of a sudden shelled out 400 bucks.

The only people who do this are the hardcore fans, who overwhemingly want a more TT inspired game.




Ill settle for 90%

Were not even breaking the 50% mark currently.

I wasn't even talking about the heat scale, you're pulling this "Youve got this communities best and brightest all suggesting the same 30 heat scale. Its crazy you dont seem to notice that." thing out of your ass.
I never disagreed with anybody on that either
It seems you're trying to paint me as someone who defends Ghost Heat...
Right now you're looking for reasons to argue and with your points about how this game should only cater to hard core fans is awfully short sighted
The reason this IP is struggling financially is because the dedicated core group of players is simply not enough to keep it afloat, PGI is in turn forced to make changes hoping to attract new players, yeah , it'd be nice if the world revolved around you and people who agree with you and spent millions and millions fisical year , but that's not how it works cupcake, if that were so, then Battletech would be pumping out a new game every year.

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[KraftySOT]

DasaDevil, on 17 September 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

So play tabletop

I do. I play this too. Totally allowed my opinion. Also since this is "THE TIME" to say this **** while the devs actually give a crap during this PR campaign...ima gonna say it.

Ill play the next crappy iteration of MW too. And hopefully I also wont have to pay for that one.

Whenever someone does put out a great MW game, ive always got my kids college fund.

[Mystere]

tayhimself, on 17 September 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Forums still full of nerf-bat wielders and whiners. FFS people.

You have it all wrong. The objective is to completely destroy the Clans once and for all. It's a holy crusade started when the Clans were first introduced in BattleTech.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

I wasn't even talking about the heat scale, you're pulling this "Youve got this communities best and brightest all suggesting the same 30 heat scale. Its crazy you dont seem to notice that."
I never disagreed with anybody on that either
It seems you're trying to paint me as someone who defends Ghost Heat...
Right now you're looking for reasons to argue and with your points about how this game should only cater to hard core fans is awfully short sighted
The reason this IP is struggling financially is because the dedicated core group of players is simply not enough to keep it afloat, PGI is in turn forced to make changes hoping to attract new players, yeah , it'd be nice if the world revolved around you and people who agree with you and spent millions and millions fisical year , but that's not how it works cupcake, if that were so, then Battletech would be pumping out a new game every year.

Completely disagree. The reason its struggling is because the hardcore players have left or are still playing Megamek.

And you cant both simultaneously argue against TT adaptation, then say you support TT adaptation, just not some quasi identifiable "full adaptation" that exists only in the fog of war of your mind.

What the hell do you think weve been arguing about this whole time?

If youre arguing against TT, youre on the side of Ghost heat.

What did that doofus American president say? Youre either with me or agin' me?

Not being for ghost heat, and also not being for TT adaptition, means youre defacto for another system just like Ghost Heat that has no bearing in the lore or TT, which s no different than being FOR ghost heat.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

If youre arguing against TT, youre on the side of Ghost heat.

Oh my god
You're hilarious
How did you make these huge leaps in logic to reach this point?
You're stuck in this "either or" mindset.

[KraftySOT]

Is there some sort of invisible wall that comes up adapting a board game to a FPS game? Yes...but each and every one of those problems is surmountable with the littlest bit of effort.

Replicate results...and youre on the right path.

Thats the easiest measure...and also a way to not piss off fans. Clearly youre appeased so long as its "more or less like the tt" and wont be any less upset, if they fix alot of the stupid mistakes theyve made moving it AWAY from the TT.

If we ever get to a point that, holy ****, its gone to far to the TT, it really shouldnt be that big of a deal to roll back a few changes...then youre at the golden spot. youre in that window between TT and FPS, that is going to draw in all the hardcore fans, and whoever they bring with them.

Growing this IP is impossible. The only people who can do that are the fans, who get our friends and kids into it. Its not going to grow in the hands of PGI or anyone else. Thats how cult phenomenas work.

[KraftySOT]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Oh my god
You're hilarious
How did you make these huge leaps in logic to reach this point?
You're stuck in this "either or" mindset.

Because it IS either or.

So lets say you remove ghost heat, and you put in a hardpoint system that doesnt allow boating anymore (like a large energy slot, or small energy slot)...youd be happy?

Thats the same damned thing. Its not better. Now youve just created another arbitrary system to fix the fundamental problem instead of fixing the fundamental problem.

The only solution is to more closer to the TT...if youre not for ghost heat, and youre not for the TT, then youre clearly for an answer that isnt goes heat, and ISNT the TT...which means another arbitrary system.

Why cant you just use Carl Sagans BS detector kit. Seriously it answers these things for you.

If your position is that it can never be A, and B is wrong, the only options youre left with is the entire rest of the alphabet, but never A...which in this analogy is the TT..so youre instantly never going to have a solution based on the TT that keeps it in mind, because youve already written it off.

Its either or, because its either the TT, or something thats not the TT.

There is a baseline. If youre not at the baseline, youre somewhere else.

Its insane you bring up logic because you use NONE of it.

[Revis Volek]

Destructicus, on 17 September 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Oh my god
You're hilarious
How did you make these huge leaps in logic to reach this point?
You're stuck in this "either or" mindset.

"...only Sith's deal in absolutes...."

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Because it IS either or.

So lets say you remove ghost heat, and you put in a hardpoint system that doesnt allow boating anymore (like a large energy slot, or small energy slot)...youd be happy?

Thats the same damned thing. Its not better. Now youve just created another arbitrary system to fix the fundamental problem instead of fixing the fundamental problem.

The only solution is to more closer to the TT...if youre not for ghost heat, and youre not for the TT, then youre clearly for an answer that isnt goes heat, and ISNT the TT...which means another arbitrary system.

Why cant you just use Carl Sagans BS detector kit. Seriously it answers these things for you.

If your position is that it can never be A, and B is wrong, the only options youre left with is the entire rest of the alphabet, but never A...which in this analogy is the TT..so youre instantly never going to have a solution based on the TT that keeps it in mind, because youve already written it off.

Its either or, because its either the TT, or something thats not the TT.

There is a baseline. If youre not at the baseline, youre somewhere else.

Its insane you bring up logic because you use NONE of it.

Its not "either or" if you have countless other variables....your logic is flawed.

Its A, B or the rest.....

Edited by DarthRevis, 17 September 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[pwnface]

Since the posts above mine are just people arguing with each other and going off topic....

Back to topic, I think it is pretty clear that the overwhelming majority of voices in this thread think artificially adding heat to a clan mech that loses a ST to "increase chance of shutting down" is a bad idea. Many people have voiced strong opinions on having clan mechs lose movement speed as well (10%-30% seems the range suggested).

I think we should let PGI implement the heat sink loss changes before we keep pushing for additional nerfs. I'd rather have them make one change at a time to get to a good balance rather than add both of these penalties at the same time. Haven't we learned from the history of heavy handed nerfs which have pissed off so much of the community? Heat sink penalty change first THEN adjust movement speed if further tuning is necessary.

[Destructicus]

KraftySOT, on 17 September 2014 - 01:46 PM, said:

Because it IS either or.

So lets say you remove ghost heat, and you put in a hardpoint system that doesnt allow boating anymore (like a large energy slot, or small energy slot)...youd be happy?

Thats the same damned thing. Its not better. Now youve just created another arbitrary system to fix the fundamental problem instead of fixing the fundamental problem.

The only solution is to more closer to the TT...if youre not for ghost heat, and youre not for the TT, then youre clearly for an answer that isnt goes heat, and ISNT the TT...which means another arbitrary system.

Why cant you just use Carl Sagans BS detector kit. Seriously it answers these things for you.

If your position is that it can never be A, and B is wrong, the only options youre left with is the entire rest of the alphabet, but never A...which in this analogy is the TT..so youre instantly never going to have a solution based on the TT that keeps it in mind, because youve already written it off.

But it isn't
You're giving yourself these arbitrary ultimatums
Get rid of ghost heat and just ghost heat and then what?
huzzah, ghost heat is gone and the game it that much better
You seem determined to make things more difficult
The game worked fine before ghostheat

Edited by Destructicus, 17 September 2014 - 01:53 PM.