220 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

WM Quicksilver, on 17 September 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

If you need Gauss and PPCs to counter them, wouldnt that imply that they are too good if you buff them to 2x damage....
Fire and Forget and increased velocity would do enough to boost them, hell I would be ok if they set it up so that LRMs lock on like SSRMs with some setup to intentionally miss so I don't have such terrible accuracy with them thanks to their wonky flight paths.

I'll tell you a little secret.... tee hee... LRMs are fire-and-forget, you only have to maintain the lock-on for a second or so after you fire them, then you can turn away and they will hold the lock for all but the most distant shots, certainly for any direct-fire opponent shooting at you. Of course then you have to re-aquire the lock so not what you would normally do. As for SSRMs locking mechanics they are for the skilless and could not even be incorperated into little Clan SSRM6s. MWO is already an arcade version of MechWarrior with zero tactical gameplay, just a bum-rush with ACs and Lasers, more SSRM styled missiles is just a total flop.

Like I say you can take LRMs into the open against a typical team with no LRMs now. They have nothing they can hit you with except maybe 2xGauss, but unlikely if you do it right. However, if you made LRMs LoS only they would be a good deal stronger since they would need to do the same damage in less time to be balanced. It's just that with no working Gauss Rifles or PPCs the mechs of BrawlWarrior Online would be helpless, no difference than if the LRM mech was over some distant hill.

[Chronojam]

Roland, on 18 September 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Chromehounds had such a mechanic, and it was definitely interesting.

Generally though, I would tend to relay MORE information, not less...

For instance, way back in the day when they first started talking about "role warfare" the idea of a module that allowed a mech to relay multiple targets to his team was presented.

I'd really rather have something like that, where everyone could see who everyone can see, rather than just the one target they happen to have selected. This is one of the things that makes not having voice comms a major issue for pugs, because it's much harder to fully relay exactly how many contacts you see when you're scouting and you encounter a group. The only thing many folks can do in that case is just cycle the targets really fast to try and indicate many contacts.

I'd rather the system just relayed all of the contacts you saw.

Now we're getting into more nuanced target data sharing and C3/C2 systems. It's a worthwhile discussion but we're starting to drift from the original ECM-focused view. I'd like to see a targeting system that allowed layers of information:

Okay, you see a mech
Okay, you see a medium mech
Okay, you see a Hunchback
Okay, you see a Swayback that's full of lasers!

Depending on your gear and enemy gear, getting this data, and the speed at which you get that data, is impacted. Consider the Frozen City cave example. Basic radar might let you know there are four mechs without LOS; if they're running passive, you might not even notice them if you're not closeby. Seismic could tell you "Yup, looks like 2 heavy mechs, a medium, and an assault." If you've got a C3 slave unit, you can relay this to everybody with a C3 master unit. If you have a C3 master unit, you are also receiving the fact that a missile-loaded Awesome is coming around the outside of the cave from another scout's report.

If ECM gets involved, your C3 network might break down. If certain gear is fit by the enemy, you might be unable to check exact enemy damage or weapon loadouts even with line of sight, even if you know his variant tends to have missiles instead of lasers.

Right now, in battletech terms, your team is getting a TON of free, fast, and really accurate information whenever anybody targets anybody else anywhere, barring ECM.

[VanillaG]

Roland, on 18 September 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

It's a laser. ECM can't block a laser. It's basically the same kind of thing as modern guidance lasers... there's not really anything to disrupt. It's not like the laser itself is transmitting any kind of information.

Think of it like the Disco Ball the US military uses but directed at laser wavelengths. It would essentially throw out enough spurious laser blasts that the missiles would lose any tracking benefits at the end of the flight.

[GenJack]

Roland, on 17 September 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Non Line-of-Sight Based Radar

To further support this notion of scouts, I'm proposing a return to a more omni-directional, non-LOS based radar system as seen in prior Mechwarrior titles.

The reason for this is that the requirement of a direct LOS on a target in order to see it means that it's very difficult, if not impossible, for a mech to truly just scout an enemy force. In order to perceive them on sensors now, he must have a direct line of sight to them. This means that he's exposed to direct fire, and is thus directly engaged in combat in order to gather any intelligence on the enemy forces. This kind of reduces the ability to be stealthy, since for many light scouts, if they stop they are going to get one-shotted. So they need to be moving around constantly, explicitly without cover between them at the mechs they are scouting.

Back in MW4, I routinely ran as a scout for my lance. Scouting in that game was in many ways much more complex and more rewarding than in MWO, because it was all about using sensor ranges in addition to your eyes to locate the enemy without them seeing you.

A large part of this centered around staying under cover and not exposing yourself, while still achieving sensor coverage over areas. You could scout a valley on the other side of a mountain ridge by running along the ridgeline but not popping up over the top... unless you wanted to check briefly to see visually whether there were mechs that were undetectable based on range.

MWO's vision based radar system kind of negates a lot of this, as detection is based specifically upon not having anything between you and your target. This means that in MWO, regardless of your sensor suite or mech, if you can detect a mech, then he can see you. The only thing that actual detection ranges do in MWO is effectively determine missile lock capabilities by providing the magic taco chip, and this is a big problem. Sensors need to be providing situational awareness, not merely a mechanism for locking missiles.

As such, I'd propose going back to an omni-directional radar system which ignores terrain and provides a sensor sweep around a given mech. This is certainly achievable from a technical perspective, as they effectively had it with the Seismic sensor.

The result of this change is that, coupled with the weight based detection ranges noted above, mechs are able to really use their sensors in a tactical manner. The player will know with some degree of certainty (again, fostering the notion of consistence between player expectations and what he experiences) what his exposure level is and what is around him. It'll help facilitate the type of scouting I described above, where a scout can use his sensors to observe regions without necessarily exposing himself to direct fire.

This in turn enables a significant amount of tactical movement, as both sides end up having potentially improved situational awareness which they can use to base their maneuvering on. I say potentially, because combined with the variations in detection range based on weight class, the overall picture of the battlefield will vary significantly based upon how mechs are utilized and positioned. Scouts become extremely important.

(Note, the more observant of you may be noting that with such a system, if we were to leave LRM's as they are, this would be devastating as folks could hold locks and pound you with missiles, without you even being able to shoot the spotter... don't worry, that's addressed later with the LRM changes)

Hi Mr Roland and everyone else...

As you can see I am a forum lurker via my previous posts.... But I just have to say you lured me out of hiding because of how amazing this post is! I agree with everything!

Except!

Non-LOS Radar...

There is a lot of things this would cause to make current in game modules obsolete: IE. Seismic Sensors and 360 Target Retention*

I agree with 99% of the Idea of Non-LOS Radar but I think It would be better if it was 360 (Terrain Blocked) Radar....

360 (Terrain Blocked) Radar:
So if someone walked up behind you you'd see them pop up on your mini map when they got in your radar range based on your idea of detection ranges. This would give all the benefits of an actual Radar system... and still keep the ability for mechs to hide in the given terrain of the area!

The person looking for you wouldn't know you are behind the building till both of you can see** each other.

**He would be looking away but his mech pinged you with the 360 (Terrain Blocked) detection system, while you were looking towards.


Seismic Sensors:
This would be the perfect fit for the current modules in place because it wouldn't break the Seismic Sensors as it allows to "see" through walls.


*360 Target Retention Module:
Some people who have posted here do not seem to understand what the 360 Target Retention Module does...

The module allows you to keep lock on a person you have targeted even if they go behind you! Not see enemies behind you.

With my modification to your Radar it would keep this Module still relevant as you would be able to keep target lock on enemies behind you.


Please reply back if you see any issues with my modification to your idea.

Edited by GenJack, 18 September 2014 - 12:48 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Roland, on 17 September 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Well, note that there are some significant buffs to LRM's in what I've proposed. Mainly, by having LRM's track regardless of whether you keep lock on the target, you are improving LRM's significantly.

First, it means that many more of your LRM's will actually hit the target, as they will be much harder to evade. Targets will no longer be able to just duck behind cover and have all of the LRM's impact the ground next to them.

Second, it means that you'll be able to effectively use LRM's alongside normal weaponry, as they will function similarly. Between shots, you'll be able to fully torso twist and soak damage, instead of being forced to stare at the target while your LRM's in en-route.


Beyond those buffs, the fact that ECM will no longer actually prevent you from locking missiles, and the fact that you'll be able to lock missiles on any target that you have a line of sight to (even if it's not detectable on radar), means that LRM's will be able to be fired on more targets.

That being said, it's certainly possible that LRM's will need to have their damage adjusted. But that's part of the reason for these proposed changes to LRM's. These types of changes should result in LRM's which have more consistent performance in any given match, which should make it easier to buff or nerf them based on how strong they end up being.

In truth, unless interupted by ECM or Radar Dep, you can fire-and-forget LRMs now on all but the most distant targets as the LRMs can hold the lock for 2-3 seconds. The drawback is always the time it takes to re-acquire the target is often longer than if you just stayed on-target. ECM should just be countered by BAP at 600 meters with Line-of-Sight or TAG. MWO should be a skill game where you can improve over the average by adding equipment and being in the right place. It really saddens me to see MWO go back to the original closed beta BrawlWarrior AC+Laser bum-rush.

[Barkem Squirrel]

the interesting thing I find with detection ranges, when in a light, I am identifying the mechs and watching them with the Mark I eyeballs. Then using the targeting to make sure I am out of detection range.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lightfoot, on 18 September 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I'll tell you a little secret.... tee hee... LRMs are fire-and-forget,

Except not....especially since those competitive players are running either Radar Dep, ECM, or even both. What people traditionally mean by fire-and-forget, is that you can fire and then the missiles are no longer affected by any of your actions which is clearly not the case now since LRMs just home in on the last known position (if you lose lock that is).

The occasion that you are able to actually fire and really not care about a lock is if they are within a decent range, somewhat slow, and pretty much running parallel to you. I've seen this work, even against myself, but that wasn't because they are effective per se, it was because I and people this is effective against were playing stupid/badly. If I'm moving perpendicular at any decent speed, doing this will pretty much means your missiles will all miss.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 18 September 2014 - 01:29 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roland, I do have a question, I just skimmed the past couple pages and I think it got touched on but never fully asked or answered.
With regards to target info gathering, I seem to remember that MW4 gave you the most basic info (location and a picture of the mech moving) until your crosshairs met the target for even a split second. Would Target Info still be gathered in a similar fashion as it does now (LOS nets you more information) where as until you get LOS to target, all you know is pretty much the location?
This sort of detail might supress some fears people have about this radar as well clarify something for me because this is kind of important to scouts (I like to know what mech I just discovered).

[Kensaisama]

Roland, on 18 September 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

What issue are you talking aobut here? Sorry, I'm not quite clear what the question is.

Sorry I figured out my own conundrum, I was thinking one thing and typing a question about another, disregard.

[Sprouticus]

Roland, well thought out and presented, as usual. I like the overall plan. I have some thoughts and suggestions

NOTE: I tried to keep to the ideas present (keep it fun and keep it simple to implement by reusing tech). I also tried to keep to canon where possible which you did but did not mention as a goal.

NOTE: My thoughts are a bit jumbled because some were from the initial read and others from replies in the thread.

Big concern: pugs. Relaying info as a scout in pug games is horrible at the moment. VOIP would address it some but even then it would be tough. You model works awesome with good communication, but less so with bad comms.

Concern: would be that it might reduce the effectiveness of LR sniping. This may not occur, Im not sure, but the abiility to track without expiosing ones self would make things difficult. That would probably be too much effort to implement though since nothing like it exists currently

With thought concerns stated here are some thoughts and ideas that would both enhance your idea IMO, but also address the concerns I have:


weight based range: Love it

Thought: I am concerned about too many variables, but in the end scouts will have to remember a LOT of details to know the detect ranges. Maybe that will set apart the best form the rest though? a great scout will have those tables memorized.


Idea: seismic module could also add range to non-LoS if target is moving?
idea: Make non-LOS radar forward facing only (similar to LoS radar today). The 360 module then has a very good use, and again, scouting becomes more complex

idea: Perhaps non-LOS radar could use the 'ping' ability that is in seismic currently (no info given just mech position) and (unlike seismic now) pass that to allied mechs on the various maps? It would give scout the ability to get limited info on position, but to get more they would have to put eyes on the target? Even the number of mechs is often hard to get with the pings on seismic. With non-LoS radar limited to just pings on the map (not doritos or detailed info), the scouting would be both more complex and more rewarding



ECM/BAP: I like the ECM generally, but I think ECM should slow down lock, bap should counter it, just like now. (and MW4)

idea: Seismic module could offset ECM somewhat for non-LoS tracking.

LRM: sounds perfect IMO. Love the fire and forget (although to be accurate, many missiles, even today, do require tracking to maintain lock)

Minor concern: I am not sure how the 'always able to target if you have LoS' thing wold work. It might require more effort. But if you implemented the ping idea above, you could still have LoS 'radar' operate similar to how it operates today with detailed info and the ability to lock onto targets

Question for you, how would you integrate the following:

Artemis (tighter spread still? more speed?)
Radar Dep module (get rid of?)
Radar Range module
Target decay module (and target decay in general)
360 module?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sprouticus, on 18 September 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Thought: I am concerned about too many variables, but in the end scouts will have to remember a LOT of details to know the detect ranges. Maybe that will set apart the best form the rest though? a great scout will have those tables memorized.

Sprout, were you around for the days of NBT-HC, I know you ran with Aceattack and his crew at one point?

Either way, I can tell you the great scouts knew this almost by heart (me and RuFF certainly knew the tables and a headshot meant no more ECM). If we had BAP and were picking up a mech at 600m, we knew he was passive and perfect to abuse. If we were picking up something at 800m, they had ECM and back in the HC days with the equipment scarcity, it paid to know which variants had ECM+BAP and could detect you as well. Good scouts will always do more for you than simply relay location information.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 18 September 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[UnknownSeeker]

Roland,

I like your treatise. I think it is better then what we currently have. I also have my own suggestions and modifications to it but I m not going to mention them because I think it draws attention away from the main point when everyone tries to add their own 2 cents.

Guys (and gals) everyone has to agree on something or else nothing is going to happen and we are just going to continue with the same broken LRM and mech weight system. Everyone is not going to be 100% happy with everything however I think most people can agree that this would be a substantial improvement over what we currently have. I think a simple yes & no poll should be put up with the question "Would you like Roldand's Treatise on ECM and Sensors (and LRMs) enacted?" So for now can everyone just put there improvements/modifications/additions to the side and instead make posts ask that the devs post a vote on this?

[Fubbit]

This is close enough to perfect for me with one major exception.

** I think detection should require LOS. (Except Narc?) **

The rest of it improves game play and tactical decision making dramatically.

(Seemingly) Very easy to implement various levels of gadgets and counter gadgets on top of it.

Cheers!

Edited by Fubbit, 18 September 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[beerandasmoke]

Very well written and thought out Roland. I approve of this and it can be tweeked after implementation in case of any bug or unforseen issues. Honestly, I think the council (if we get one) should vote on presenting these changes to Russ.

[N0MAD]

OP.
Well written piece and certainly some things i agree with.
The way you suggest ECM/BaP works is basically how it worked in MW4 (similar) and i personally like that.
Couple other things i will comment on..
Weight and detection range, dont like this at all, small/ medium mechs have already multiple advantages over their heavier counterparts, size (as a target) and most importantly mobility, speed and maneuverability (im not including their obvious benefits at the moment with bad hit detection/network lag issues). Mobility is a great advantage already and a pilot that knows how to use this has a great chance at surviving causing damage plus relaying info back to group.
The failure of a role for the lights isnt anything more than the size of the maps we play on, apart from one or maybe two maps (and these are barely big enough) the size of the map is whats causing the lack of a role for them, why do you need a scout when you spawn in firing range of a spawn or only need to travel 30 secs to an engagement point. Our current maps are fine for a sandpit fight but not for ttrue strategic/tactical play where roles can be used.
Lastly for now, how can you talk about changing info gathering systems for scouting/battlefield intel when we have a periscope that allows any mech to get a clear view of the battlefield from behind cover at will?

[Yiphyin]

I really quite like this idea.

[Sprouticus]

I knew them as well, but back then you only had....6 maybe 8 numbers total?

400/800/1000/1200? plus coup0le more?


My point is that by varying by mass, you multiply that by 12.


I love the idea ofmass based radar signatures, but if 12 different 'classes' too many?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sprouticus, on 18 September 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

I knew them as well, but back then you only had....6 maybe 8 numbers total?

400/800/1000/1200? plus coup0le more?


My point is that by varying by mass, you multiply that by 12.


I love the idea ofmass based radar signatures, but if 12 different 'classes' too many?

As long as it is linear, and you know the min and max, it isn't that much arithmetic to do on the fly. Then again, I'm more math oriented than most, so that might be easier for me than a lot of other people *shrug*

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 18 September 2014 - 05:18 PM.

[EvilCow]

Just a note, in this proposal I would also plan for the C3 unit and its role/behavior. Linking the sharing of information to the C3 unit would be a nice addition.

In MWLL a mech was able to share its sensors only if equipped with a C3, note just the observer, a nice approach that could be considered for MWO too.

The C3 is IS-specific just like the TC is Clan-specific, having distinct capabilities will make the game more interesting (IS all about tactic and information, Clans about firepower and accuracy).

[Roland]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 September 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

Roland, I do have a question, I just skimmed the past couple pages and I think it got touched on but never fully asked or answered.
With regards to target info gathering, I seem to remember that MW4 gave you the most basic info (location and a picture of the mech moving) until your crosshairs met the target for even a split second. Would Target Info still be gathered in a similar fashion as it does now (LOS nets you more information) where as until you get LOS to target, all you know is pretty much the location?
This sort of detail might supress some fears people have about this radar as well clarify something for me because this is kind of important to scouts (I like to know what mech I just discovered).

This is not a bad idea, and in line with some of the ideas Amaris had... where non-LOS targets would only provide low quality contacts... Potentially with less information about the chassis, no weapons loadout, etc.