Prosperity Park, on 17 September 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:
Weight-Based Detection: Sounds good, except have it range from 1000-800m (even a 20-ton hunk of metal, ceramics, and polymers can be detected pretty easily).
If you compress the difference down to such a narrow band, you effectively remove most of the advantage that lighter mechs end up having.
I think that the difference going between 1000 and 600m is pretty solid from a gameplay perspective.
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Non-LOS Radar: I have to disagree. It "dumbs the game down" by reducing the effectiveness of Information Warfare features such as Thermal Vision, Magnetometer (future Module), Night Vision, Seismic Sensors, and the need for scouts to actually "look" for the enemy. It would render a lot of the game's inventory obsolete.
It encourages teams to hide and PopTart in unison and also punishes the players who move into the open in a maneuver to engage. It would greatly slow the pace of battle, since there is no reason anymore to move around corners to look for the enemy.
Yes, I understand the reluctance to move to what could potentially be perceived as a "simpler" radar model.
However, that being said, the problem is that the current LOS model prohibits a lot of the scouting activities that made "information warfare" in Mechwarrior 4 more rewarding. The LOS model, as currently implemented, currently results in simpler gameplay. And I think that what we want is complexity in the enabled gameplay, not necessarily complexity in the fluff description of how the radar system works, right?
Regarding things like special "modules", I gotta suggest that the idea of only enabling major features of gameplay through modules, instead of through built in features of every mech, is problematic. In the case of things like the seismic sensor, the big issue wasn't necessarily the simple fact that it allowed non-los contacts... The issue was the fact that it was an "optional" sensor, that was in reality absolutely required.... and the fact that it didn't really have any of the depth I'm presenting here with varying detection ranges. It was basically a very slightly simplified version of MW4's radar.
This is important to note here, that the system I'm proposing is not simply MW4's radar. The range variation in detections adds quite a bit of complexity and nuance on top of it. But this highlights the portion which must be paid attention to in terms of contact management.
With the current LOS system, contacts are effectively all managed via LOS... You maneuver your mech to gain LOS on targets, and this provides you with data that can be relayed to your team.
With the system I'm proposing, maneuvering is no less complex to maintain contacts. But you must recognize what kind of maneuvering you are required to do... In the system I'm presenting here, you are maneuvering your mech and adjusting your sensor state to control the RANGE of your sensors compared to the enemy.
What this enables, which is currently missing from the LOS system, is that you can actually maneuver your mech and use your sensors in such a way as to gain contact while staying hidden. In a system based solely upon LOS, this is effectively prohibited, as having LOS means that they can generally see you... it ends up being mainly luck whether or not they just happen to be looking in your direction when you establish LOS.
And with contacts being determined purely by LOS, the nuanced range differences for different mechs will tend to be meaningless. You won't really be able to control your range to the extent required to leverage that aspect of the sensor gameplay, because most times you won't gain contact until they are well within the edge of your sensor range, once you happen to turn a corner.
That being said, Amaris the Usurper has come up with some interesting ideas that center on these issues.
Ultimately, the issue boils down to this... as it stands, the LOS radar doesn't really do a whole lot for you. It's a sensor which is effectively redundant with your eyes, due to its extremely limited range. In the real world, people don't use radar to detect things that are only a few hundred meters away. You have the eyeball mk1 for that.
Calling it "radar" is perhaps part of the problem... In a mech, the "radar" would be a feed from a bunch of different sensors, detecting all kinds of stuff, some of it non-LOS based.
But we need some sort of system which is non LOS based to facilitate the kinds of range based gameplay that I've described.
Amaris has a number of ideas about making non LOS detections more realistic, while making the potential sensor detection mechanics more in-depth. The downside of these ideas, however, is that they will complicate the development process. I'll ask him to post up some of his ideas here. Generally, he's got a very good mind for this kind of discussion.
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Introduction of active and passive detection modes - As a general concept, it's good. Turn radar off to decrease your visibility, and FURTHER decrease your sensor ranges. If going passive decreases your radar profile X-fold, it should decrease your ability to detect enemies 1.5 - 2 X-fold, in my opinion.
I agree with this, I believe. I think that's how I had it descibed, didn't I?
Generally, an active mech will detect a passive mech prior to the passive mech detecting the active one, if both are the same size. For the example of the atlas, an active atlas will detect a passive atlas at 600m, while the passive one won't detect the active one until it gets within 400m.
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Changes to ECM and BAP - I can't agree with this one, as it greatly reduces the game complexity and makes information warfare more bland. I want ECM to have a "more than one Mech effect," but I think BAP should be buffed instead of Nerfing ECM into nothing more than anti-BAP. That would be boring.
I would rather see BAP get an effect where a Mech with BAP can detect enemy Mechs that are cloaked under ECM a little more easily by reducing the range they can stray form their own ECM before they become lockable by a Mech with BAP. THAT, right there, would make them more in tune with eachother.
The thing is though, you're not really adding any kind of fun gameplay with this. Complexity does not inherently equate to fun.
In the system you describe, basically all it does is make it such that you need to bring BAP if you want to use missiles.
Generally, having ECM prevent missile lock is one of the big reasons why it screws up balance, and it's one of the reasons why LRM's have been so hard to balance.
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LRMs - I honestly feel that LRMs should require a lock to track their targets. Loss of a lock means the missiles have no guidance, and they will just continue heading where they were going (like they do now). There's no reason to give them guidance in the absence of a lock.
I'm not sure why you think this.
It's how they worked in closed beta.. it's how missiles in the real world work.
And generally, I suspect it would make LRM's more fun to use, with less wasted ammo.
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) i still think ECM/BAP should have the abilities they had in TT, including the AOE bubble.
