18 replies to this topic

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

If 10vs12 is of table the devs should consider prorating IS tons to clan tons

This is straight forward an easy thing to control.

From a statistical standpoint it is a very easy control parameter that can be used to determine a confidence interval based upon repeated sampling.

This might make a lot more sense than trying to do some weird balance with perks which is even more esoteric than 10vs12.

Edited by Blueduck, 17 September 2014 - 07:32 PM.

[1453 R]

What's actually wrong with letting them do their quirk pass on the Inner Sphere 'Mechs? Seriously? Why does no one think it'll do anything?

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Because it is an inconsistent variable that is based on individual mechs rather than a consistent control parameter

[Kiiyor]

HOLY CRAP, SCIENCE!

I agree with this....

.... but after the quirk pass, if neccessary. Not because you're idea doesn't have merit, but because bad IS mechs are SO FAR BEYOND BAD, there hasn't been an adjective created yet to describe them with any sort of accuracy.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

I am all for the quirk pass just because I agree it will be fun for the IS mechs.

Its just not a valid balance tool.

[El Bandito]

Quirks helped the Hunchie, helped the Awesome. I say yes to the IS quirk buffs.

Catapult needs 15% more internal structure health buff because that's how inflated it's size is.

[Kiiyor]

Blueduck, on 17 September 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

I am all for the quirk pass just because I agree it will be fun for the IS mechs.

Its just not a valid balance tool.

Well, not overall, but we really aren't talking balance just yet - we're talking about getting the majority of IS mechs to a point where they can be balanced.

The IS has too many variables. The Clans don't - they have a rock solid foundation of GREAT mechs, and only a couple of not-as-great ones to drag them down.

The IS however, has enough under-performing mechs to form the worst battalion of robots in the history of battletech, the 101st Derp irregulars.

You can't balance the IS when you can't predict just how many bad mechs will be dropping against a generally great Clan Pantheon.

Too many variables.

[El Bandito]

Kiiyor, on 17 September 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

You can't balance the IS when you can't predict just how many bad mechs will be dropping against a generally great Clan Pantheon.

Too many variables.

This is true. On the other hand, many of the pilots who play those "bad" mechs are those who make them work, despite the handicap.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 September 2014 - 07:48 PM.

[Kiiyor]

El Bandito, on 17 September 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

This is true. On the other hand, many of the pilots who play those "bad" mechs are those who make them work, despite the handicap.

This is also true, but I believe that is a result of guts and pure skill, rather than any redeeming features from the mechs themselves.

I, at one stage, had close to a 3.0 KDR after a thousand or so pug drops in my Awesome. I clawed my way there through adversity and PAAAIN. After PPC's were nerfed, it fell dramatically, but still, I felt like I really achieved something with that behemoth.

What worries me is that those bad mechs can still appear to be so utterly terrible in statistics, even though there are determined, skilled players fighting against unthinkable odds to drive up the averages.

[1453 R]

Blueduck, on 17 September 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Because it is an inconsistent variable that is based on individual mechs rather than a consistent control parameter

In other words, it's a specific, case-by-case basis thing that can be used with as light or heavy a touch as needed for an individual chassis in order to account for its specific goodness or badness in order to help steer it towards a rough baseline?

YOU'RE TOTEZ RIGHT, THAT WOULD NEVER WORK.

Seriously. Uniform solutions applied to an irregular problem produce irregular results. A JagerMech and a Thunderbolt both weigh the same, but that doesn't mean they're worth the same in a given match or that the same +10t pro-rating applied to both of them would produce the results you're looking for. You can't just slap a one-size-fits-all solution onto the issue and then expect all the problems to up and vanish.

Let Piranha do its quirk pass, then we'll see what else might be needed to bring things into line.

Edited by 1453 R, 17 September 2014 - 08:19 PM.

[El Bandito]

1453 R, on 17 September 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

In other words, it's a specific, case-by-case basis thing that can be used with as light or heavy a touch as needed for an individual chassis in order to account for its specific goodness or badness in order to help steer it towards a rough baseline?

YOU'RE TOTEZ RIGHT, THAT WOULD NEVER WORK.

Seriously. Uniform solutions applied to an irregular problem produces irregular results. A JagerMech and a Thunderbolt both weight the same, but that doesn't mean they're worth the same in a given match or that the same +10t pro-rating applied to both of them would produce the results you're looking for. You can't just slap a one-size-fits-all solution onto the issue and then expect all the problems to up and vanish.

Let Piranha do its quirk pass, then we'll see what else might be needed to bring things into line.

Not to mention Jager A, Jager DD, and Jager FB are totally different beasts within a single chassis.

[Y E O N N E]

Blueduck, on 17 September 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Because it is an inconsistent variable that is based on individual mechs rather than a consistent control parameter

It's almost as if all the 'Mechs and their variants are supposed to be different and have their own strengths and weaknesses!

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Yes, but you can't balance based upon that any easier than you can with 10vs12, if you want a global balance you will need a parameter that can be controlled for overall Clan vs IS balance.

[Y E O N N E]

Yeah, and that parameter has to be something that is universal and actually means something. Tonnage doesn't necessarily mean anything because there are tons of heavy 'Mechs that are garbage.

Something meaningful might be armor values after factoring in the customization and quirks.

We've all been in matches where the enemy has four Dire Wolves or four Atlases that all rush into the main area. They have to be killed quick because if they are ignored they will wreck your day. Unfortunately, focusing them leaves you vulnerable to their team-mates. That's not simply because Dire Wolves are 100 tons, it's because they have tons of armor. Yes, armor is a function of weight, but it's also a function of user choice.

You can say the same thing about firepower.

Essentially,. the universal parameter isn't actually going to be any one thing, it's going to be a value obtained from a function of many things. We could even call it...Battle Value.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

You're correct Yeonne but you would probably want to start simply with one parameter as an indicator of the others.

I would start with tonnage and go from there.

Of course PGI would have access to the complete population information on all the other data and could probably make up a "Battlevalue" just as you suggested.

[BlakeAteIt]

Three Direwolves, two Timberwolves, three Stormcrows, and two Kitfox vs three Victors, three Dragons, three Vindicators, and three Locusts.

Balanced!

[Y E O N N E]

Blueduck, on 18 September 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

You're correct Yeonne but you would probably want to start simply with one parameter as an indicator of the others.

I would start with tonnage and go from there.

Of course PGI would have access to the complete population information on all the other data and could probably make up a "Battlevalue" just as you suggested.

I should clarify that the Battle Value isn't an arbitrary number. They can collect data and see what has which effect and with how much gravity. The BV would be the end result of an equation built from that information.

But because the game has so many stochastic mechanics, the game will statistically never be perfectly balanced.

I don't think they should just start with tonnage because the 'Mechs are supposed to have quirks. They were always supposed to have quirks. Those quirks can upset the influence of tonnage on a 'Mech's performance. It's pointless to go with tonnage until the quirk pass is complete.

[Livewyr]

Easy parameter to control:

Make a copy of: SDR-5D, JR7-D, HBK-4P, Wolverine 6R, CTF-3D, STK-5M, and KC-000.
THEN
Apply KFX, ADR, NVA, SCR, SMN, WHK, and DWF skins/models respectively.

Balance.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 September 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

I should clarify that the Battle Value isn't an arbitrary number. They can collect data and see what has which effect and with how much gravity. The BV would be the end result of an equation built from that information.

But because the game has so many stochastic mechanics, the game will statistically never be perfectly balanced.

I don't think they should just start with tonnage because the 'Mechs are supposed to have quirks. They were always supposed to have quirks. Those quirks can upset the influence of tonnage on a 'Mech's performance. It's pointless to go with tonnage until the quirk pass is complete.

I agree.