52 replies to this topic

[Creovex]

I have and continue to find the Summoner one of my best mechs. As I have said before regarding play style, if you are like me, this mech has some cherry setups but you have to be willing to hit and run, and disengage.... this is not a lead mech like the Timberwolf but rather a heavy supporter.... almost a Thundetbolt of the Clan world. If you play Hunchbacks and Centurions well... you can do well with this mech...

[Alistair Winter]

I Zeratul I, on 18 September 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

Wait till I have enough c-bills to buy one.
I shall show you the error of your ways.

No, you shan't. I'm not saying that no individual will be able to do well with a Nova. I'm saying that almost everyone who does well with the Nova, will do better with other mechs, like the Storm Crow.

[Carrie Harder]

This is Clan balancing in a nutshell.

Most of the weapon changes are probably being aimed at bringing down Mad Cats and Ryokens to IS level...but by the time they get there, the already sub-par Clan mechs would be roflstomped into the ground from the nerfs. PGI is trying to balance the optimal Clan robots by reducing weapon effectiveness for all Clan robots (even the ones that were never really better than the IS, in some cases worse).

[UnsafePilot]

Carrie Harder, on 18 September 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

This is Clan balancing in a nutshell.

Most of the weapon changes are probably being aimed at bringing down Mad Cats and Ryokens to IS level...but by the time they get there, the already sub-par Clan mechs would be roflstomped into the ground from the nerfs. PGI is trying to balance the optimal Clan robots by reducing weapon effectiveness for all Clan robots (even the ones that were never really better than the IS, in some cases worse).

Shouldn't be any more weapon changes.

From: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3734787

Russ Bullock, on 17 September 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

You guys have already been told the plan - I am still hoping to not touch their weapons again.

- IS Quirks

and at the least fix what I consider a bug when a clan mech has there Side Torso destroyed yet they keep 100% of their Engine heat sinks. At the least we need to fix that with their ST destruction.

These items and I hope were there

In short Clan players - smile life is good

[Marmon Rzohr]

Carrie Harder, on 18 September 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

This is Clan balancing in a nutshell.

Most of the weapon changes are probably being aimed at bringing down Mad Cats and Ryokens to IS level...but by the time they get there, the already sub-par Clan mechs would be roflstomped into the ground from the nerfs. PGI is trying to balance the optimal Clan robots by reducing weapon effectiveness for all Clan robots (even the ones that were never really better than the IS, in some cases worse).

If we were to remove the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow from the game, the Clans would still be OP. Especially before the laser nerf. The Nova was crazy good. The Summoner would still be better than any IS heavy. Fair enough, the lights are bad, but nothing apart from an engine change is gonna solve that.

And let's not even mention the Dire Wolf.

There is no way to make every mech in this game equally powerful, IMHO. It's never going to happen, no quirk system or any other solution will make the Blackjack equal to a Shadowhawk, unless the Shadowhawk suddenly became garbage. What you can do is bring the average power levels in line, so that the Clans become closer to the IS and then balance out the differences between individual mechs.

[Lily from animove]

Creovex, on 18 September 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

I have and continue to find the Summoner one of my best mechs. As I have said before regarding play style, if you are like me, this mech has some cherry setups but you have to be willing to hit and run, and disengage.... this is not a lead mech like the Timberwolf but rather a heavy supporter.... almost a Thundetbolt of the Clan world. If you play Hunchbacks and Centurions well... you can do well with this mech...

but whatever your summoner can, except 5 missile racks, the TW can do it as well and better.

Russ Bullock, on 17 September 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

You guys have already been told the plan - I am still hoping to not touch their weapons again.

- IS Quirks

and at the least fix what I consider a bug when a clan mech has there Side Torso destroyed yet they keep 100% of their Engine heat sinks. At the least we need to fix that with their ST destruction.

These items and I hope were there

In short Clan players - smile life is good

I hope this does not mean ST destruction will create lesser heat dissipation, because this will gimp the lights and Nova even more. Because the big boys in the clans (Sc and above) can mount enough ballistics to drag their firepower by cool sources and will care not as much from less heat dissipation as the other mechs.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[VanillaG]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:

I hope this does not mean ST destruction will cerate lesser heat dissipation, because this will gimp the lights and Nova even more. Because the big boys in the clans (Sc and above) can mount enough ballistics to drag their firepower by cool sources and will care not as much from less heat dissipation as the other mechs.

That is exactly what it means. You should lose the capacity and dissipation of 5 heatsinks (10 heat from TT) when you lose a side torso. There was also discussion of a possible drop in top speed but based on that comment that appears to be off the table.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 18 September 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

No comparison between the Summoner and Loki. Despite neither having Endo or FF, the Loki has alot more free tonnage 28.5 tons (more than the Timberwolf actually) free verses I think 20.5 tons on the Summoner. Even maxing the armor, the Loki still has 5-6 more tons available for weapons and DHS. Also unlike the Summoner, the Loki has very good hard point options that offer a ton of versatility. Additionally, the Loki isn't burdened by the fixed near useless JJs on the Summoner which is partly why it has so much more tonnage available for weapons. Overall this means a Loki is going to have a significant firepower advantage over the Summoner. Lastly, there is the Loki's ability to mount ECM to consider. Overall I think the Loki is going to be one of the better Clan mechs and may end up rivaling the Timber Wolf in popularity (nerfs will be incoming).

If you find the JJs near useless, you have been using them wrong.

Far from optimal in current state, but also far from useless. Lot's of other uses beside getting height for poptarting.

[Bront]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

So balancing mechs amongst each other is making them more casual crab?
Sticking with construction rules while adding totally lore non existent quirks is a better lorelike way?
People who use these mechs don't use them because of the qurkiness, they like them by the visual desing these mechs have or how they are bound to the faction they are in by lore. But hardly anyone chooses these mechs because they want to pilot something gimped. Your logic hardly makes sense at these points and would even less lead to any MWO balance.

To be fair, lore is full of quirks that never got implemented in standardized rules that balanced around other things (Ultimately battle value was the catch-all balance). I think adding quirks allows for them to tweak mechs, try to keep them lore flavored (Like PPC using Awesomes), while allowing for customization that has become the core part of any Mechwarrior gameplay.

That said, I think an MWO mod of allowing JJs to be removed (or maybe some, keep 2 hard-locked, let the rest be removed) from some mechs isn't that bad of an idea.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Viktor Drake, on 18 September 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

No comparison between the Summoner and Loki. Despite neither having Endo or FF, the Loki has alot more free tonnage 28.5 tons (more than the Timberwolf actually) free verses I think 20.5 tons on the Summoner. Even maxing the armor, the Loki still has 5-6 more tons available for weapons and DHS. Also unlike the Summoner, the Loki has very good hard point options that offer a ton of versatility. Additionally, the Loki isn't burdened by the fixed near useless JJs on the Summoner which is partly why it has so much more tonnage available for weapons. Overall this means a Loki is going to have a significant firepower advantage over the Summoner. Lastly, there is the Loki's ability to mount ECM to consider. Overall I think the Loki is going to be one of the better Clan mechs and may end up rivaling the Timber Wolf in popularity (nerfs will be incoming).

The summoner has 100 more armor as well (or 40 more than the prime HB build), HB is paper thin.

[Carrie Harder]

Marmon Rzohr, on 18 September 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

If we were to remove the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow from the game, the Clans would still be OP. Especially before the laser nerf. The Nova was crazy good. The Summoner would still be better than any IS heavy. Fair enough, the lights are bad, but nothing apart from an engine change is gonna solve that.

And let's not even mention the Dire Wolf.

There is no way to make every mech in this game equally powerful, IMHO. It's never going to happen, no quirk system or any other solution will make the Blackjack equal to a Shadowhawk, unless the Shadowhawk suddenly became garbage. What you can do is bring the average power levels in line, so that the Clans become closer to the IS and then balance out the differences between individual mechs.

The Nova was and still is mediocre-ly hitboxed. It packs a big alpha, certainly, but then it has to wait a good long time until it gets to fire again. It's sort of like the medium class equivalent of the 6 PPC Stalker. Since its weapons are mostly arm-mounted, that also makes it easy to quickly reduce the mech's firepower. Their long legs are also prime targets. And its fairly big nose. It's fairly analogous to the Splatcat and Jagerbomb in that they pack a big punch but they're often made of glass.

Summoners aren't better than the good IS heavies. Yeah, Dragons and Quickdraws and Thunderbolts are worse, but nobody cares about those mechs because they're bad. Cataphracts and Jagers, as well as some Catapult builds (namely the K2) can carry quite a bit more firepower than the Suckoner while still going at good speeds for their class. The Suckoner's only truly useful advantage is that it can usually tank more damage than most IS heavies, and even then it has nice long legs that magnetically attract weapons fire.

The Dire Wolf has the most firepower in the game, but it also has the lowest speed and agility. It has actual weaknesses that can be taken advantage of, compared to *certain mechs* that are fast, tough, and hit hard all in one package. Stand in front of it and you'll get mauled as brutally as if you got hit by a freight train, take a few steps to the side and you'll be unharmed.

[Elizander]

I think the Adder will be okay as an offensive light mech. Maybe just a tad more armor on those legs.

[Gas Guzzler]

There are some very solid builds for the Nova.. Whether you want to poptart or laser boat.

Summoner could use a bit of help, doesn't really have a purpose at this point. Some super JJs would help but not necessarily make it viable, just quirky..

[Gyrok]

UnsafePilot, on 18 September 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Shouldn't be any more weapon changes.

From: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3734787

What they have already done to clans is truthfully too much to begin with for some chassis...

Last night I jumped into a LRM40 + 4xERML SCR for the first time since the last wave of heat changes...

Pre-heat nerf, that mech had a 1.19 heat efficiency.

Post heat nerf, it is seriously...0.98.

I saw that and it boggled my mind as to how much heat PGI tacked onto those ERMLs. 20% heat increase made sure a lot of mech builds got "rekt" and this was a SCR.

Other mechs like the nova or summoner, or others...just got completely screwed over by the changes.

Not a good balancing plan, not at all.

[Weaselball]

I'll still keep taking my Summoners out, but I've never been one for the hardcore meta-builds/chassis. I still really like my 2LL, SRM12 AC20 Std Engine Victor with max JJ's. It's slower than most other people's Victors, but packs more firepower and more jump maneuverability as well. *Shrug* Different strokes for different folks I guess.

TL;DR I'll still be using my Summoner, though probably not as much as an ECM Hellbringer

[Mcgral18]

I Zeratul I, on 18 September 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

.

Wait till I have enough c-bills to buy one.

I shall show you the error of your ways.

Bad hitboxes, no endo, 2.5 tons hardwired, can't remove heatsinks to place some Dakka.

It can boat lasers, which is now 12 heat higher than it was a few weeks ago. This mech was hurt the most by that nerf.

UnsafePilot, on 18 September 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Shouldn't be any more weapon changes.

From: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3734787

They should revert those heat nerfs, and actually try to balance with stats that don't ruin the mechs...

Damage, range, recycle. Heat is bad.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Carrie Harder, on 18 September 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

The Nova was and still is mediocre-ly hitboxed. It packs a big alpha, certainly, but then it has to wait a good long time until it gets to fire again. It's sort of like the medium class equivalent of the 6 PPC Stalker. Since its weapons are mostly arm-mounted, that also makes it easy to quickly reduce the mech's firepower. Their long legs are also prime targets. And its fairly big nose. It's fairly analogous to the Splatcat and Jagerbomb in that they pack a big punch but they're often made of glass.

Summoners aren't better than the good IS heavies. Yeah, Dragons and Quickdraws and Thunderbolts are worse, but nobody cares about those mechs because they're bad. Cataphracts and Jagers, as well as some Catapult builds (namely the K2) can carry quite a bit more firepower than the Suckoner while still going at good speeds for their class. The Suckoner's only truly useful advantage is that it can usually tank more damage than most IS heavies, and even then it has nice long legs that magnetically attract weapons fire.

The Dire Wolf has the most firepower in the game, but it also has the lowest speed and agility. It has actual weaknesses that can be taken advantage of, compared to *certain mechs* that are fast, tough, and hit hard all in one package. Stand in front of it and you'll get mauled as brutally as if you got hit by a freight train, take a few steps to the side and you'll be unharmed.

The Dire Wolf's mobility will probably only be an issue in competitive play. In PUG play it is the king. Most PUG games are either static or quite scattered, and the Whale thrives in both situations. It's ability to oneshot or cripple anything in the game is simply crazy. In my opinion it's the bad whale pilots with UAC2 and UAC5 builds that give people a sense that "hey I can run circles around that thing". Sure, the slow speed can result in being left behind and zerged or LRMed, but personally nothing scares me like the whale in the hands of a skilled pilot. Since games almost never come down to 1vs1 situations, good positioning can almost negate the mobility disadvantage the whale has.


The Nova isn't as tanky as the good IS mediums, true, but it still has speed and a lot of JJs and it isn't exceptionally vulnerable either due to being quite small. The arm mounted weapons can get blown off, but it's quite easy to shield your damaged arm from return fire, so not really such a big deal considering how much firepower you pack.

Suckoner ?
Yes, IS heavies can pack more firepower, but none of them are nearly as tanky as the Summoner and are not even in the same league when it comes to mobility. It's crazy quickness gives it a big advantage in both brawling situations and sniping situations, and it can pack a good loadout for both. The Jager and Cataphract can mount more weapons, but are slow and squishy in comparison. When it comes to PUG games the Summoner's durability and mobility would give it a clear edge. If you sit in one place and snipe, you might have more success with the Jager due to more alpha damage, but if you can use the mobility, it's just fantastic.

[1453 R]

I love how everyone wants to pull four of the five jump jets off the Summoner, but then continue to complain that the Summoner can't get any air time.

Maybe, just maybe, if people hadn't been abusing the obvious oversight that was the One Jump Jet Wonder for so long, Piranha wouldn't have felt the need to turn jump jets into hopscotch jets? Alternatively, DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT THE SUMMONER WAS BUILT TO JUMP. It is supposed to be an agile, highly jump-capable chassis - demanding the ability to pull all the jump jets off of it so you can turn it into a Clanaphract is simply showing that you're not really interested in piloting a Summoner. Go back to the actual Cataphract if you want to pilot a Cataphract so much.

Also stop trying to break Omni construction rules, it's a pretty major component of the current Clan vs. IS balancing paradigm that can't be thrown away whenever it's inconvenient. The inconvenience is sort of the point.

Idjits.

Edited by 1453 R, 18 September 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

1453 R, on 18 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

I love how everyone wants to pull four of the five jump jets off the Summoner, but then continue to complain that the Summoner can't get any air time.

Uhh... This is not minority report dude... You can't remove JJ on the summoner yet so how are people going to complain about it not getting any air time with a single JJ? You're berating unspecified people for something that has not even happened yet...

As for the current complaints about the mechs ability to jump... They are very much justified in the sense that a victor with 4 jj can get more alt than a summoner with 5... The end result is that people just want to have a limited number of the JJ removable as there has been no indication that the most recent thrust changes to JJ will not be further iterated upon in the near future... Players just want a mech that is not handicapped by TT omni rule set on one side, and mwo's thrust implementation on the other.

Also, blaming the over nerf on players using the most effective tools provided to them by the design team is rather... Well... Silly? The blame for the (what myself and many others consider) negative JJ changes rests squarely on the shoulders of the design team.

Edited by lartfor, 18 September 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Davers]

Alistair Winter, on 18 September 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

I just think PGI sometimes overestimates the significance of minor quirks. I mean, the AWS got some major quirks that really played a big difference (although it's still not quite on par with other assault mechs). But some of the other quirks added recently have been underwhelming. A 10% armour boost on the Centurion shield arm is basically nothing.

It sounds better if you say "The Centurion now has better right arm armor than mechs 15 tons heavier."