164 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

You use words that lead to faulty generalizations. You will not use it. Lily Probably won't use it. Tombstoner Might Use it...

Players have proposed that Atlases get some form of Armor Buff. As an Atlas Pilot I disagree... What makes you think I would Judge an Omni any different?

good, so lets say we make new mech for 1000$ and 5 out of 1000 gyus buy it for 30bucks, Nice buisness done. Just because someoen uses it, does not mean it is valid or make sense.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

the Highlighted is absolutely true. And as such, having differing points of view discussed in a civil manner helps, the folks making the game make a better educated choice. will it be the right choice? Hopefully. I know what I find fun. You know what You find fun. They could be diametrically opposite, Now who does the maker make happy? Or should he/they find a middle ground that gives both parties something? All I can do is give what I think is the best advice I have, and let the guys getting paid to make the game sort it out.

But your advice makes logically no sense, What is the benefit of sticking to a rule generating a dead product. A Product the companies doens't sells profitable, a product the customers doesn't use. You knwo why nearly all system get upadtes in rules and stuff? because some thigns are not right and then changes are done. DOne because the companies needs happy customers and needs to sell product. Or they entirely drop the product.

Hoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Additionally remember that every buff means faster TTK when those mechs are on the field. We don't need faster TTK.

Not really, when a TW kills in 20 seconds and a Summoner in 30 Seconds and you buff the summoner to a ttk of 25 seconds it does not increase TTl when there are only TW on the field. It stays the same.

Also when you buff stuff like armor it does increase ttk instead of reducing it.

So it all depends onw hat you buff and how you buff it.

And EVEN if the SMN atm is on par with IS mechs, giving him ES + FF options will not imbalance the Clan vs IS issue further. And why? because atm 95% of clan heavies are TW's and so the effect the Summoner has on clan vs IS balance is nearly non existent. But when a SMN buff would change the equation to 70 TW and 30SMN it would better balance clan vs iS, because even the now better than IS Summoner will still be a worse Clan VS IS than a TW Clan vs IS setup.

and with the huge heads up the TW has, I doubt you can nerf it efficiently to a proper degree.

The summoner right now has one big problem over the TW: Ammo, you can throw laods of stuff into the TW hardpoints and still have viable amounts of ammo. But making use of the most summoner hardpoints, especially all those nice Missile and ballistic hardpoints, will mostlikely make you doengrade these wepaons due to lack of ammo. Thats why I dropped most summoner builds I did, making stuff with the TW is much more fun in the mechlab and even more on the field. And when I could ES on the Summoner, those freed tonnage would go into a good bunch of vital ammo.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 19 September 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

The summoner right now has one big problem over the TW: Ammo, you can throw laods of stuff into the TW hardpoints and still have viable amounts of ammo. But making use of the most summoner hardpoints, especially all those nice Missile and ballistic hardpoints, will mostlikely make you doengrade these wepaons due to lack of ammo. Thats why I dropped most summoner builds I did, making stuff with the TW is much more fun in the mechlab and even more on the field. And when I could ES on the Summoner, those freed tonnage would go into a good bunch of vital ammo.

Ammo is a problem - but lets take a closer look what may happen - when you say JumpJets for ClanMechs are omni pods (Thor, Nova, Koshi) - ES and FF could be mounted - engine heat sinks are always the maximum possible.

Summoner: with max armor and 14 engine heat sinks will have 29.5 tons of modul capacity - but you have the same room problems as the Timber Wolf
Timber Wolf with max armor and 15 engine heat sinks will have 27.5 tons of modul capacity (as it is currently)

Are two tons of more capacity worth the change? Wouldn't it be enough to turn the JJs into a Omni Mount?
If the TimberWolf S is removed and replaced by the Alt. A (for example) removing Jump Capability for the TimberWolf - could help to make choice between TimberWolf and Summoner more difficult?

[Widowmaker1981]

Karl Streiger, on 19 September 2014 - 01:41 AM, said:

Ammo is a problem - but lets take a closer look what may happen - when you say JumpJets for ClanMechs are omni pods (Thor, Nova, Koshi) - ES and FF could be mounted - engine heat sinks are always the maximum possible.

Summoner: with max armor and 14 engine heat sinks will have 29.5 tons of modul capacity - but you have the same room problems as the Timber Wolf
Timber Wolf with max armor and 15 engine heat sinks will have 27.5 tons of modul capacity (as it is currently)

Are two tons of more capacity worth the change? Wouldn't it be enough to turn the JJs into a Omni Mount?
If the TimberWolf S is removed and replaced by the Alt. A (for example) removing Jump Capability for the TimberWolf - could help to make choice between TimberWolf and Summoner more difficult?

This is true, and i wouldnt have included the S varient for that reason, but its here to stay now. I would also hardlock the JJs into the omnipods for the S varient if i DID include it, however as that would invalidate existing builds it also wont happen. The fact is the hardlocked JJs on the summoner provide benefit (even if JJs suck a bit atm and its not really optimal to use 5/5 in a heavy), but the lack of Endo steel is a straight up bad design choice, because clan Endo is too good (7 slot endo is too powerful really, not enough of a trade off. but we are stuck with it, since PGI dont want to invalidate stock builds) - as such imo something that is an active, straight up handicap to certain chassis is a BAD thing.

Other than allowing it to be added to chassis missing it, the ONLY other thing i see working is to add a fairly serious negative to Clan Endo (like -20% internal structure HP or something). The outcry against that would be... Epic. (and every Kitfox pilot everywhere just cried out in pain at the suggestion)

End of the day it doesnt affect me really. Ill just continue to use the mechs that won in the lottery and ignore the bad ones...

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 September 2014 - 01:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 19 September 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

good, so lets say we make new mech for 1000$ and 5 out of 1000 gyus buy it for 30bucks, Nice buisness done. Just because someoen uses it, does not mean it is valid or make sense.



But your advice makes logically no sense, What is the benefit of sticking to a rule generating a dead product. A Product the companies doens't sells profitable, a product the customers doesn't use. You knwo why nearly all system get upadtes in rules and stuff? because some thigns are not right and then changes are done. DOne because the companies needs happy customers and needs to sell product. Or they entirely drop the product.

A couple guys getting a product for $60 when others pay a thousand??? Isn't that how Apple does business?

In CBTs case, it took 20 years to publish 3 books that reworded the rules into a simpler to understand instruction in most cases. It also was needed to gather all the rules from the various sourcebooks into one of three books. I would say that less than 10% of the core rules actually changed in Total Combat. I was involved in the proofreading and testing of the NEW rules and equipment.

So Unlike when AD&D updated the DMG and Players Handbook twice in 5 years, and 7 years later AD&D3.0 3 years later AD&D3.5 another 5-6 years and D&D4.0(No longer Advanced) and its less than 6(?) years and it is getting revamped into D&D 5.0.

Now The CBT guys don't revamp the rules every 4-5 years, but they do Revamp the TROs. The wording changes but the stats hardly change... I new Mod for a chassis here and brand new design there. But all 3 TRO3055, 3058 and 3060 have changed very little.

A dead product has zero sales. CBT is a Niche product, and continues to sell product to its fans. BattleCorps is still up and running, selling product... Dead I don't think so.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 September 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

This is true, and i wouldnt have included the S varient for that reason, but its here to stay now. I would also hardlock the JJs into the omnipods for the S varient if i DID include it, however as that would invalidate existing builds it also wont happen. The fact is the hardlocked JJs on the summoner provide benefit (even if JJs suck a bit atm and its not really optimal to use 5/5 in a heavy), but the lack of Endo steel is a straight up bad design choice, because clan Endo is too good (7 slot endo is too powerful really, not enough of a trade off. but we are stuck with it, since PGI dont want to invalidate stock builds) - as such imo something that is an active, straight up handicap to certain chassis is a BAD thing.

Other than allowing it to be added to chassis missing it, the ONLY other thing i see working is to add a fairly serious negative to Clan Endo (like -20% internal structure HP or something). The outcry against that would be... Epic. (and every Kitfox pilot everywhere just cried out in pain at the suggestion)

End of the day it doesn't affect me really. Ill just continue to use the mechs that won in the lottery and ignore the bad ones...

What many players keep missing is there is a story based reason the Mechs are designed the way they are. You are not looking at the full picture. When it comes to military spending and design, not every piece of equipment is Maximized. Choices get made by committee, back alley negotiations, Bribery and blackmail... actual budget limitations. This IP has included that kind of thinking in the design process.

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

What many players keep missing is there is a story based reason the Mechs are designed the way they are. You are not looking at the full picture. When it comes to military spending and design, not every piece of equipment is Maximized. Choices get made by committee, back alley negotiations, Bribery and blackmail... actual budget limitations. This IP has included that kind of thinking in the design process.

You are right, i am deliberately ignoring the story based reasons, since they are incompatible with making mechs balanced in this game, which is not a book.

Edit: if repair and re-arm was a thing, then that could add some reasons to not use maxed out chassis upgrades. However it is not a thing, and i am sceptical that making it a thing at this point would be at all fair - some people have hundreds of millions of banked C-Bills, and rich players could then ignore a part of the balancing process. (plus P2W arguements since you can buy C-Bills)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 September 2014 - 02:14 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 19 September 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

You are right, i am deliberately ignoring the story based reasons, since they are incompatible with making mechs balanced in this game, which is not a book.

Edit: if repair and re-arm was a thing, then that could add some reasons to not use maxed out chassis upgrades. However it is not a thing, and i am sceptical that making it a thing at this point would be at all fair - some people have hundreds of millions of banked C-Bills, and rich players could then ignore a part of the balancing process. (plus P2W arguements since you can buy C-Bills)

Well you are playing a game based on those books. Using equipment from them as well. If you don't like the IP don't play the game. I am here to play. MechWarrior (A BattleTech Game), that being said it should feel like real time BattleTech. In BattleTech the rules say, you don't get to change Omni structure or armor.

As for the Cbills in the bank. There is a OLD Dragon Magazine article about how to drain those overflowing coffers. It was a great read back in the 80s!

[Karl Streiger]

Its a hard business to include RPG content into a FPS. Oh i drive a inferiour Mech because my Clan - the Jadechickens are to greedy to use a Endosteel Chassis. While those Vanilla Wolves got the Vanilla Wolf.... wait a moment - i also have three Vanilla Wolfs in my Hangar - why shouldn't i use them?
Yes as a matter of style i can gimp myself (i do it with using stock weapon config on my AS7-D (F) - but with some surprises and upgrades) - or you can take the build that is more sucessfull.

And the T-Wolf is in every single matter the better choice - not only more tonnage for weapons and omni pod jump jets - it has the better HPs too. (My first run on a T-Wolf - was 2 ER-PPCs, 3 MGs and 2 LRM 15s - including JJs - was hot but 3 kills in my first run - its usual that i need 30 games on a new mech with new weapons to get even my first kill)

I had the idea that you can - turn a OmniMech into a BattleMech - locking the Hardpoints - but allowing the modifications of engine heatsinks, jumpjets, reactor, endosteel and ferrofibrous.
Than i thought about the consequences:
a Summoner D with a a 300 XL - no engine heat sinks and 3 jump jets with max armor (FF) and (ES) -> 2 GaussRifles with 3ton ammo each + 4 ERMLAS

Dunno don't think that will help to increase the "diversity"

[Sjorpha]

I don't really care how it's done, but it is not possible IMO to balance IS vs Clan in a good way without also balancing IS and Clan internally.

The design goal should be to make ALL chassis in the game viable at all levels of competition. They can and should be viable in different ways (asymetric balance), but they should all be viable. As long as there is mechs which are unviable competitors there is more work to be done. PGI needs to somehow make choosing between a locust and a spider, an awesome and a stalker, a summoner and a timberwolf etc REAL difficult strategic choices with more than one right answer.

For those who want imbalance because lore and TT rules, TT balances by cost (battle value etc.). This is not as viable in a game like MW:O because cheapness is not a working incentive in a game where your mech is your baby that you yourself pilots and competes with. The 4 mech dropship mode could be a way to introduce tonnage as a balance point, make it impossible to bring max weight in each class (want to bring an atlas and a cataphract? Ok, then you can fit a locust and dragon with that.), but that wouldn't sove the issue for pugging, you'd still need to make the locust and dragon viable in themselves.

Edited by Sjorpha, 19 September 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[That Dawg]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 September 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

Not entirely sure how thats relevant, given that the issue is mechs without it are bad compared to those that do have it - all that would mean is more viable mechs might be released, it wouldn't help the viability of the current ones that are missing it...

And.....as a grown up, working full time, with teenagers.......that Nova represented several nights I should have been doing other things. Not to mention it was an expensive, fearsome grind- and thanks to PGI for that week of freemium I won, the cbills and mechbay I won that weekend of solo..........and barely a week later its balls were cut off with a shovel?
.....never to return to the state in which I worked rather diligently to grind all three chassis.....a week....WHACK...
I can only imagine what its like to have dropped a hundred bucks on a game, enjoyed the mech for a while then it gets neutered to the point where you're asking yourself...wtf..
Now the old clan mechs are the same watered down versions of IS mechs, and they launch...NEW mechs?

I bet they are vastly superior to the clan mechs, and they'll sell a ton....then...nerf them.

If anyone thinks I'm going to waste time spending time or money grinding any other mech again......nope.
I'll drop in, play the ancient ancient IS mechs I finished off months and months ago that still work the same.
I like the new direction it seems to be taking, but its been regulated to world of tanks status, I'll pop in on special weekends just to keep the account active. check the forums for changes. such potential two years ago when I first stumbled into that trial catapult

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 19 September 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Its a hard business to include RPG content into a FPS. Oh i drive a inferiour Mech because my Clan - the Jadechickens are to greedy to use a Endosteel Chassis. While those Vanilla Wolves got the Vanilla Wolf.... wait a moment - i also have three Vanilla Wolfs in my Hangar - why shouldn't i use them?
Yes as a matter of style i can gimp myself (i do it with using stock weapon config on my AS7-D (F) - but with some surprises and upgrades) - or you can take the build that is more sucessfull.

And the T-Wolf is in every single matter the better choice - not only more tonnage for weapons and omni pod jump jets - it has the better HPs too. (My first run on a T-Wolf - was 2 ER-PPCs, 3 MGs and 2 LRM 15s - including JJs - was hot but 3 kills in my first run - its usual that i need 30 games on a new mech with new weapons to get even my first kill)

I had the idea that you can - turn a OmniMech into a BattleMech - locking the Hardpoints - but allowing the modifications of engine heatsinks, jumpjets, reactor, endosteel and ferrofibrous.
Than i thought about the consequences:
a Summoner D with a a 300 XL - no engine heat sinks and 3 jump jets with max armor (FF) and (ES) -> 2 GaussRifles with 3ton ammo each + 4 ERMLAS

Dunno don't think that will help to increase the "diversity"

Diversity, is often misused (not in this case mind you ).

I did allow my table to build their Clan's Omni Base Chassis how they wanted. When we were playing Clans. Each player had a Crusader and a Warden Clan (so everyone was either the attacker or the OpFor). But Once it was singed off, they could not change it again. If they wanted a different Base Chassis, they had to raid/challenge the other Clans. Some got slower others faster, all maxed armor, some changed structure. Those who whined before STILL WHINED AFTER. So I took their toys away.

[That Dawg]

Actually I thought the reason the Nova series was so expensive because it CAME with xl, endo, ferro, DHS...........brudda......

Jeez.....let me have endo and I could make it WORK again!!

[Joseph Mallan]

ThatDawg, on 19 September 2014 - 03:25 AM, said:

Actually I thought the reason the Nova series was so expensive because it CAME with xl, endo, ferro, DHS...........brudda......

That cost is artificial number generated by Inner Sphere calculators. Clans don't pay money to labor caste. They earn a set number of credits, but nowhere near the IS pay. So the manufacturing is quite cheap its the lack of raw materials that many Clans have to work with.


NOENDO4U!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 September 2014 - 03:31 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

I did allow my table to build their Clan's Omni Base Chassis how they wanted. When we were playing Clans. Each player had a Crusader and a Warden Clan (so everyone was either the attacker or the OpFor). But Once it was singed off, they could not change it again. If they wanted a different Base Chassis, they had to raid/challenge the other Clans. Some got slower others faster, all maxed armor, some changed structure. Those who whined before STILL WHINED AFTER. So I took their toys away.

Thats an important story - because its shows an flaw that BattleTech TT had for a long time. At any point you have Mechs that don't differ much - they will be min/maxed to the point (like those Mechs from the later TROs 3060 and 3067) mirroring the players playstyle but always with regards towards an optimum build. If you can't make it better but another Mech seems to be better, you take this one.
(for example - when i have redone the 3050 Omnis - i was free to alter weight of those Mechs too (Kit Fox became 40t) Dire Wolf (90t) and so on.

What Catalyst did - and i loved this idea -was to include the Perks and Flaws -so on the paper the 3060 Liao Jingau is equal to the 3100 Steiner Scourge - but with the right perks n flaws you could make them differ.
And this is my biggest hope for MWO - (take for example the premier FIS-heavy ballistic Mechs. (Jaeger, Catapract IM, Catapult K2) - consider all of them have a 2 Gauss Rifles.
So you have obvious differences: High Mount Jaeger, Flexible Mount Catapract, Torso Mount K2 (ok the K2 is inferior as a ballistic Mech - but it should beat both other Mechs for example when you consider to use PPCs)

So lets think about the CTF-IM and the JM6-G - you choose the JM6-G as a stationary sniper, while you may take the IM for a more mobile setting. Even if there is a obvious advantage for one of them - they have both their role and place.

Now - the same with Thor and TimberWolf (ignore the Loki - its ECM is unique).

Is there any role you can imagine the Thor is able to beat the T-Wolf? I can't. So its obvious that you need some work here.

[Joseph Mallan]

TRO3075 was the worst. It bled PPCs!

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

TRO3075 was the worst. It bled PPCs!

WHAT DOES HE DARE TO SAY:

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 19 September 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

WHAT DOES HE DARE TO SAY:

That brings back a story.
We were fighting the Mani... "borg" When the GM asked "Who Shot the Seriph? (Yes the pict is Arch Angel) without missing a beat I did my best Bob Marley, "I shot the Seriph."

Good time. Good Times!

[EvilCow]

A solution could be to give ES and FF some kind of drawbacks (both IS and Clan) or normal versions some advantages.


Example:

Normal Internal Structure could receive positive quirks about damage transfer and resiliency.

Normal Armor could increased resistance vs some very specific weapons, for example PPCs (-10%), and a damage threshold for ballistic, for example damage values below one point would do no damage (projectiles bouncing off without penetrating it).

[Karl Streiger]

EvilCow, on 19 September 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

A solution could be to give ES and FF some kind of drawbacks (both IS and Clan) or normal versions some advantages.


Example:

Normal Internal Structure could receive positive quirks about damage transfer and resiliency.

Normal Armor could increased resistance vs some very specific weapons, for example PPCs (-10%), and a damage threshold for ballistic, for example damage values below one point would do no damage (projectiles bouncing off without penetrating it).

Also a good idea - so a serious damaged Thor vs a serious damaged Timber Wolf may still be able to take some beeting - while the T-Wolf is ripped into pieces.....sounds like an idea worth thinking.
Not only for Clans but for IS too (although the negative quirks for IS shouldn't be as hard as for Clans)

[Joseph Mallan]

Thats an interesting quirk!