164 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

There is a MAJOR issue with the balance between different clan mechs (not talking about IS/Clan balance here), and that is basically that clan chassis viability is almost entirely determined by endo steel - the chassis that have it are good, the ones that do not are bad (cases in point the nova and summoner are terrible compared to the stormcrow and timberwolf - the Dire Wolf is an exception to this, as it is 100 tons and has a tiny engine, so has a craptop of tonnage to play with. it would be obscene with endo steel as well).

Clan mechs either need to have the option to enable/disable endo steel (and maybe FF, but its less important), or the chassis without endo steel need to have large positive quirks to make them competetive.

If the option to add endo steel was available, i would probablty be upgrading my DW/TBW/WHK A La Carte purchase to a Masakari pack and buying the Man-O-War pack to get the Mad Dog. as it stands i will absolutely not be doing that (i might be getting the Man-O-War pack regardless as i want the King Crab, even though the Man-O-War will also be bad and ill probably sell it) - the Mad Dog does not have endo steel, so it will be bad, why would i want a bad mech?.. shame, because i quite like the design of it...

Locked FF/Endo create a situation where some clan mechs are just bad from the get go, and can never be good (in comparison to the ones that get lucky on the sarna lottery), and that should be fixed in my opinion, however that fix is done (positive quirks for chassis that don't have it, negative quirks for ones that do, or unlocking endo/FF seem the only options)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 18 September 2014 - 02:24 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I don't want to see Endo / FF unlocked. I would like to see quirks given to subpar Clan mechs. Or even just plain buffs, like PGI used to do. Improve turn rate, improve acceleration, better torso twist. Basic stuff. If the Nova with an XL250 and 100 degree torso twist could move like a YLW with an XL300 engine and 120 degree torso twist, it would have a purpose. Both the YLW and Griffin SRM boat are fearsome medium mechs because of their agility and torso twist. Give that to the Nova and you've got a proper Clan mech.

[Widowmaker1981]

Yeah, i tend to agree with you there, mainly because the direwolf would be pretty disgusting with endo steel too (why hello 4x gauss with 9 tons of ammo) - but something needs to be done, or the Timberwolf and Stormcrow (and soon the Fenris) will forever be streets ahead of all other clan mechs

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 18 September 2014 - 02:37 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

IIRC many of the later Models of Omnis had both Endo and Ferro. Night Gyr and Ebon Jaguar for instance

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

IIRC many of the later Models of Omnis had both Endo and Ferro. Night Gyr and Ebon Jaguar for instance

Not entirely sure how thats relevant, given that the issue is mechs without it are bad compared to those that do have it - all that would mean is more viable mechs might be released, it wouldn't help the viability of the current ones that are missing it...

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 September 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

Not entirely sure how thats relevant, given that the issue is mechs without it are bad compared to those that do have it - all that would mean is more viable mechs might be released, it wouldn't help the viability of the current ones that are missing it...

It the same argument as 3025 Mechs needing something to make them Better when compared to 3050 Mechs. The early stuff is just not as good as the next gen. Clans have their drawbacks(Some bad construction choices, Heat) for the Perks(Better DpS lighter weapons). Its a matter of over all balance instead of individual balance.

[kapusta11]

OP is right, it is sad that no one cares, people just want to see Stormcrow, Timberwolf and Dire wolf nerfed into the ground.

[Warma]

OP is absolutely right. Hellbringer and Summoner are basically just bad heavies compared to the chassis that get both endo and ferro. Allowing clan mechs to upgrade into endo+ferro is not going to create a balance problem, since the most optimized configurations already run this combo, and Mad Dog, Hellbringer and Summoner with endo+ferro are never going to be better than a Timber Wolf, so why not allow this?

I, for one, would immediately buy a Hellbringer package if endo+ferro were available. For now, I'm just sticking to the better clan mechs, which have both (Stormcrow and Timber Wolf). This is not good for balance and build diversity.

I would be okay with needing to de-omni omnimechs to achieve this, or some other quirk that would make the modified chassis' as restricted (or more so, in the case of a specific engine) than the IS mechs. (i.e. adding endo+ferro would lock in place the basic omnipods of that model or something of the order).

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

It the same argument as 3025 Mechs needing something to make them Better when compared to 3050 Mechs.

But the point is, that at the moment, you can make 3025 IS mechs better by adding modern technology and they then match the new designs. This results in more diversity in the field and allows people to play their pet mechs without being handicapped.

Bad clan chassis are just out of options. They cannot be made equal with the better designs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

But the point is, that at the moment, you can make 3025 IS mechs better by adding modern technology and they then match the new designs. This results in more diversity in the field and allows people to play their pet mechs without being handicapped.

Bad clan chassis are just out of options. They cannot be made equal with the better designs.

I can make Omnis Better by mix and matching Config Pods.

They were even more handicapped on TT, because we could not change armor amounts as we can here.

As to more diversity in the field... I doubt it. Look at all the flexibility IS Mechs have! Unless I am mistaken the chassis being fielded are pretty predictable.

[Empyrus]

Keep the construction rules as they are.
Hell, i'd rather have they stuck with the omni-rules even more closely and had forbidden armor tweaking.

I will note that the Clan vs IS balance is much bigger concern than Clan internal balance, and the Summoner is due to the good Clan tech good compared to many IS mechs (the Kit Fox less so due to its low speed but whatever).

IF the Summoner and other Clan mechs are really subpar, add quirks (inc. extra armor?), a lot of them, add more hardpoints. Don't mess with the construction rules, this is too far from a Battletech game as it is, just a Mechwarrior4 mk 2 as i see it (and no, that's not a good thing even though i liked that game).

[Training Instructor]

Bought StormCrow and KitFox, but I'm not going to buy big packages of clan mechs when most of the mechs included in the package aren't that special.

An 80 ton mech that runs fast and has 21 tons of pod space....woohoo!

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

It the same argument as 3025 Mechs needing something to make them Better when compared to 3050 Mechs. The early stuff is just not as good as the next gen. Clans have their drawbacks(Some bad construction choices, Heat) for the Perks(Better DpS lighter weapons). Its a matter of over all balance instead of individual balance.

Other than the issue with the Dire Wolf, overall IS/Clan balance would not be affected at all by adding the option to install Endo/FF - because right now, every team who is even slightly competitive will simply only field Timbers and Stormcrows and ignore the other mediums and heavies - thus all the clan mechs on the field will have the upgrades anyway. Slight exception probably for the hellbringer, because it has ECM (assuming we get the prime).

maybe just unlock Endo/FF and give the Dire Wolf some kind of quirk that means it can't install it?

Edit: the more i think about this, the more i think Endo and Ferro should be unlocked (with some kind of caveat for the Direwolf)

Would a nova with endo steel be better than a Stormcrow?
Would a Summoner with Endo be better than a Timberwolf?

If the answer to those 2 questions is No (which it is), then there is literally no IS/Clan balance issue with making this change. All it would do is give some more variety in clan mech selection, instead of being locked into the mechs that won in the Sarna lottery. Maybe make it so that if it is not installed it can be, but if it is installed it cannot be removed (to prevent messing with the hardlocked crits that are part of the balancing for clan mechs)

I can just imagine the conversation between the lead designer of the Hellbringer/Nova/Maddog/etc.. and the QA/Engineers

Engineer: Hi, im just ringing to say ive spotted a problem with the new Hellbringer design you've made, you forgot to install an Endo steel chassis!

Designer: No no, that was deliberate

Engineer: Erm.. why? there is plenty of space inside for it, its a straight upgrade to the design, it will be able to carry 3 more heatsinks for those PPCs without any loss.

Designer: I dont like endo steel, it smells funny.

Designers Boss: DUDE. you're fired. get out. Can someone ring the agency and tell them we need a new designer?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 18 September 2014 - 04:10 AM.

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

As to more diversity in the field... I doubt it. Look at all the flexibility IS Mechs have! Unless I am mistaken the chassis being fielded are pretty predictable.

I see regularly at least these chassis: Spider, Jenner, Firestarter, Blackjack, Hunchback, Shadowhawk, Griffin, Quickdraw, Catapult, Jagermech, Catapharact, Orion, Victor, Battlemaster, Stalker, Banshee, Atlas.

After the quirks, even Awesome.

Each of these chassis has sensible options and configurations in their respective weight class and the ability to field the same technology, which evens things out.

For clan mechs, the only sensible options are Stormcrow, Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf. After they release the second wave, the sensible options are going to add Mist Lynx (possibly) and the splat cat version of Mad Dog. All of the others are worthless. This is not good.

[Lily from animove]

Actually yes should be done. The DW is an issue itself thats true.

But take the summoner compare it with ecm Loki and TW. Why in all clanners bloodnames should one choose a Summoner?
Or think about the Nova, Why a Nova not a SC or now even the fenris with its superspeed?
Same for the Adder which is already a rare sight and probably gone when there are 2 other lights available both having ecm and JJ's.

Also JJ's should be able to be taken off. Why do the Jenner and TW not hae fixed JJ's but Nova and Summoner do have?

And no matter what quirks these mechs get I doubt this cann pull out such a difference. While a energy weapon related Quirk will push a lot out of the Nova, Adder and Summoner will be hard to give some viable quirks that make them appealing.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

I see regularly at least these chassis: Spider, Jenner, Firestarter, Blackjack, Hunchback, Shadowhawk, Griffin, Quickdraw, Catapult, Jagermech, Catapharact, Orion, Victor, Battlemaster, Stalker, Banshee, Atlas.

After the quirks, even Awesome.

Each of these chassis has sensible options and configurations in their respective weight class and the ability to field the same technology, which evens things out.

For clan mechs, the only sensible options are Stormcrow, Timber Wolf and Dire Wolf. After they release the second wave, the sensible options are going to add Mist Lynx (possibly) and the splat cat version of Mad Dog. All of the others are worthless. This is not good.

And yet I see many Novas, Kit Fox, and Summoners with a few Warhawks. In 3050 including the upcoming booster pack, This is all the verity Clans had. They are a very Spartan society so they were written to be practical. That expantions were added was only due to Players not being as Spartan. Even then Clanners got 2-3 New Omnis per weight division, and the Spheres got 5-6 or more!

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 04:01 AM, said:

Actually yes should be done. The DW is an issue itself thats true.

But take the summoner compare it with ecm Loki and TW. Why in all clanners bloodnames should one choose a Summoner?
Or think about the Nova, Why a Nova not a SC or now even the fenris with its superspeed?

You take it because it is the specific Clan's preferred Heavy Mech.

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

And yet I see many Novas, Kit Fox, and Summoners with a few Warhawks. In 3050 including the upcoming booster pack, This is all the verity Clans had. They are a very Spartan society so they were written to be practical. That expantions were added was only due to Players not being as Spartan. Even then Clanners got 2-3 New Omnis per weight division, and the Spheres got 5-6 or more!

Kit fox, because it is the only ecm clanner atm.
Nova because it is currently the highest clan trial you can choose from. Wait until SC TW and DW are available for Trial or C-bills and see how many Novas are left.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

You take it because it is the specific Clan's preferred Heavy Mech.

That is then the one summoner you see within 3 days. But that is hardly a baance reasons, because I doubt all the TW and DW are chosen by the same reason.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 04:15 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

You take it because it is the specific Clan's preferred Heavy Mech.

Roleplay reasons are an incredibly terrible idea for mech balance, just so you know. Its like saying clans should be miles better than IS because roleplay. this is a game, not a book.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 September 2014 - 04:15 AM, said:

Roleplay reasons are an incredibly terrible idea for mech balance, just so you know. Its like saying clans should be miles better than IS because roleplay. this is a game, not a book.

Actually Clans should be Miles better because TT game rules. And I don't consider it RP in the traditional sense. Space Marines Did not bring Dark Eldar equipment to the dance did they?