81 replies to this topic

[Empyrus]

terrycloth, on 19 September 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

There's no reason not to allow a full factory refit before each match because the matches aren't connected in time or space.

Letting people experiment in-game is a huge benefit and encourages people to think about their loadouts, instead of just copying the optimal build off the web because experimenting is time consuming or expensive.

It would make sense to lock the mechlab of people participating in CW until their match was over, maybe?

As i noted, i never intended this to be about balance, rather merely to set the record straight about battle- and omnimech customization. In universe omnis are more customizable usually, in games this is not the case.

[Pht]

terrycloth, on 19 September 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

There's no reason not to allow a full factory refit before each match because the matches aren't connected in time or space.

Yes, there very much are valid and good reasons to simply disallow that level of messing about in the 'mechlab. It turns all battlemechs into nothing more than differently sized walking gunbags. MW3 suffered from this very badly - in non stock play it quckly boiled down to the mechs with the smallest hitbox/visual volume that could carry the most effective boatable weapons.

Striders with ersmalls or mediums, etc, etc become the rule of the day. Allowing that level of refit actually *does* wind up shelving all sorts of 'mechs, never mind that it makes every chassis of similar weight a boring repetition that's only visually different than any other 'mech of the same weight.

It would also, because of the route in balancing PGI has pursued, make balancing the weapons virtually impossible, and make it horribly unrewarding to try and use any shelved weapon types.

It's not just lore reasons why that level of refit should be restricted. There are quite extreme gameplay reasons too.

Quote

Letting people experiment in-game is a huge benefit and encourages people to think about their loadouts, instead of just copying the optimal build off the web because experimenting is time consuming or expensive.

Allowing that level of changing in the mechlab would have the exact effect of forcing even those who wanted to be different just for fun to have to play the optimal build. Allowing that level of refit makes using anything less than the most min-maxxed build suicidal.

Certain lore-possible customizations/refits that are possible with factory facilities and an engineering department should not be allowed in a MW video game. Quite frankly, that level of refit nearly breaks the pen and paper BT games, and requires a good GM who knows when to look over your shoulder and say "NO. BECAUSE I SAID SO." Without the proper level of restriction, fun goes right down the toilet.

Edited by Pht, 20 September 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[rolly]

Thanks for this post.

What sticks in my mind sideways is it seems having an Omnimech and variable pod layouts seems moot (I just bought my first Omni) All the benefits, ease of load out, repair, refit are lost in this game, in fact I have to spend more credits on pods, less than customizing an IS mech.

Even then, I buy these pods it doesn't seem like it will help me unlock other variants. Because the CT is a different mech. This too is completely anathema to clans way of life and efficiency to produce unique variants with quirks and the purpose behind Omni pods.

Perhaps I am mistaken but I should only need to buy a Loki ONCE, not three times just because the CT is different just to unlock efficiencies when for all intents and purposes I can build an Alternate Config directly from the Omnipods.

Can someone shed some light on this?

[Water Bear]

My problem with the OP is that it doesn't cite sources. The customization / repair / reload rules as I used them from TT rulebooks made it possible, if possibly very risky, to do field refits. For example if you changed weapons in an arm location but kept the total critical space and tonnage the same, it made the field retrofit easier.

It is not impossible to put a clan ER LL on an IS mech, for example, it just required countless in-game hours of time, an elite level technician, and some powerfully lucky 2d6 rolls. (For the curious, you could assist your elite tech with others to reduce the rolls, and the penalties for failure typically resulted in to-hit roll mods that could be bad enough to make you not want to fail).

Basically what I'm saying is that I'm not sure if what the OP is saying was made up by him or is actually supported by fiction.

Edit: Having said that, the OP seems pretty consistent with what I remember from TT lore (what little of it I know), so good on you for the informative post!

Edited by Water Bear, 19 March 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[Abisha]

in a perfect universe, Pgi used Gravity described as it supoce to be.
like in Meters a second, other then whatever they make out of it like 1.2 gravity of what the sun? earth whatever.

in a perfect Universe Pgi do not think ambient Temperature is main factor of cooling
you can cook alive in a ambient temperature of -300 if their is no way of releasing energy like HPG Manifold

just saying this is not battle tech, it's just a shooter with mechs.

[Burktross]

The necropost intensifies.

[Lily from animove]

Burktross, on 19 March 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The necropost intensifies.

someone found a hidden starleague cache xD

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 March 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[Empyrus]

Eh, someone resurrected this?

Sources: Seriously, all of it was directly from my memory, with some refreshing from Sarna.net. I have read so many Battletech works of various types (rulebooks, TROs, novels, fan-articles) over the years...
The current core rulebooks have quite a lot of fiction, Tech Manual and Tactical operations especially, most of what i say in the OP is based on those. Probably, memory being what it is. Then there's just pure common sense... I'm pretty sure i noted that "correct me if i am wrong".

I am pretty careful about lore in general... I dare to call myself a relatively reliable source of information about Battletech.

I am not going to dig up exact references now for sure. Might update things if i get around re-reading stuff just for the fun of it.

[VtTimber]

For purists (and what I think would be quite a bit more fun and challenging) would be to make all IS mechs hardlocked (weapons, engines, armor, structure, JJs) to their default loadouts. You take a Trebuchet if you want a medium LRM boat or a Victor if you want a manouverable assault with a big gun and jump jets. Etc Etc Etc.

Then the skills would fill in gaps like speed/weapon cooldown/senor range, etc. Then you add quirks to these mechs based on their default loadouts so they are better balanced against clans. It would create a stepping stone idea to move through the mechs (similar to WoT, though I AM NOT comparing the 2 games) since you would have to buy a new mech variant to get upgrades.

Clans would be as they are now (hardpoints for clans I think are a good idea).

I think this would be alot more fun than the utter rediculousness we have now. It would help eliminate meta in certain ways.

[terrycloth]

It's called 'stock mech battles' and it sucks completely in MWO because of ammo considerations and especially single heat sinks being worthless.

Otherwise, it would just really really suck but not *completely* suck.

You end up with one or two mechs that happen to have workable stock loadouts, and a bunch of crap that no one would ever play. Customization leads to more variety.

Edited by terrycloth, 19 March 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[Harrison Kelly]

terrycloth, on 19 March 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

It's called 'stock mech battles' and it sucks completely in MWO because of ammo considerations and especially single heat sinks being worthless.

Otherwise, it would just really really suck but not *completely* suck.

You end up with one or two mechs that happen to have workable stock loadouts, and a bunch of crap that no one would ever play. Customization leads to more variety.

Boy, I'd just LOVE to go up against the Clans (even a stock Stormcrow or Timber Wolf is pretty good) in a stock SHS Inner Sphere 'Mech. That would lead to a fun and rewarding gameplay experience for sure.

I understand that having a lot of MechLab customization breaks Table Top rules. I am very happy with this, because building 'Mechs is one of the fun part of this game and restricting that for the sake of adherence to pen-and-paper rules would be an unparalleled travesty.

Gameplay >>>> lore and tabletop rules. Not that they should be ignored, but there's a very valid gameplay reason why Clans and IS need to be balanced against each other and not have Clans just be superior in a PvP game. The lore model works great for PvE, but not PvP.

[1453 R]

MOAR NECROMANCY.

Anyways.

On the subject of Omni vs. Battle 'Mech tech: as I recall, the gyro and other balance systems on an OmniMech are capable of dynamically adjusting as pods are swapped in order to maintain fluid and natural balance - which is why armor can't be modified, as the gyro is 'expecting' armor to be in certain places in order for its dynamic adjustment systems to work. Frankly this is hogwash - if a gyro wasn't capable of dynamically adjusting itself, as this strongly implies non-Omni gyros aren't, then any time a C-ERPPC shot took a ton of armor off your Centurion's arm, or any time your Cicada lost one of its shield-flap arms, your entire 'Mech would fall over on the spot. Dynamic balance adjustments are the reason MechWarriors wear neurohelmets.

More realistically, modifying an OmniMech generally involves modifying its pod interfaces, which means it no longer works with standardized pods and is thus effectively a BattleMech. I see no reason why Omnis couldn't be modified in such a way as to retain standardized pod interfaces, save for the reason stated earlier: because the GM said so.

Tangent: those Grand Summoners look sexy as hell. Can we maybe convince Piranha to just outright replace the existing Summoners with Grand Summoners? That would be amazing. Screw timelines, I'd pilot the hell out of those things.

On the subject of customization: BattleTech TT is a game about long campaigns and commanding armies. You're not a 'Mech driver in TT, you're a unit commander. The rules and regulations of TT are all geared towards the unit-commander status, where one guy is in charge of his entire company, his TO&E includes resupply vehicles and other means of restocking his units in mid-campaign or even mid-fight if necessary, and he can do all kinds of things and employ all kinds of supplementary forces and things we have no access to.

In terms of MWO, being forced to drive a craptacular junkheap like a stock Cicada because lore says your bootstraps mercenary unit doesn't have the scratch for customizations isn't fun. The idea is to try and strike a proper balance between too much customization (I.e. MW3, which had the whole 'Mech-shaped gunbag problem) and too little (that would be TT rules). 'Mechs get their individual character from their hardpoint configurations and shapes while still being able to update their stock configurations to things that make sense for a guy playing a giant shooty robot game trying to have fun.

Some folks think we've got too much customization, some folks think we have too little, other folks only ever play SMM with random 'Mech allotments and end up hating life every time they pull a stock JagerMech. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

[Lightfoot]

Mechlab is the Mech Design Factory in MechWarrior games. Mechlab doesn't exist in Battle Tech. There is no reference to Mechlab on the Battle Tech Wiki. Mechlab is added to MechWarrior games for game depth and it does that very well. Each MechWarrior game has it's own rules for Mechlab.

I know or have read that omnipod switch-outs can be done in the field. And this ability seems to be mis-directed in MWO to imply a rules set for Clan Mechlab, but there is no Mechlab.

The Canon is that you can't modify Inner Sphere mechs. Modifications take the form of factory made variants according to all references on the Battle Tech Wiki. Mechlab just allows you to control the mech factory to create a custom mech. There is no rule that says it doesn't work for Clan omnimechs the same way.

[KraftySOT]

You can customize them, thats why theres rules for it.

Can you customize an M-4? Sure. Can a soldier customize an M4? Nope.

The same reasons the Houses didnt customize, is the same reason you dont in the military.

However, if you were rich, and had the right techs, you could customize almost to your hearts content. This is true of either side.

The advantage to Omnipods is that they can be changed in the field, even though they themselves cannot be customized.

But generally, in 3052, to take out a Medium laser, and replace it with a heatsink, outside of a mech factory, would require about 100k cbills, the heat sink in question and an elite tech, and maybe 180 minutes.

[KraftySOT]

See in Battletech, 'doing stuff' has two components when it comes to resupply, or repair, or customization (its really all the same thing). The "to hit" to do it and "the time" it takes to have it done.

If you have 40 minutes between two fights, and it takes 180 minutes to repair your armor, you dont get your armor repaired.

Now things like being in the field, being at a mobile base, being on a drop ship, or being at a factory, are going to change your "to hit" to do the thing, but hardly ever the "time" it takes to have it done.

The only thing really preventing you from turning mechs in Battletech into MWO Meta Machines is A.) There are already every mech you can think of and design you can think in the canon (megamek has like 2400 mechs) B.) your techs retire and cbills have to be earned.

The chance of you getting, and keeping, an elite tech that can take out your LRM20 and put in a c3 and more heat sinks and armor in a mobile field base in the blinding rain, is slim. Turning a Stalker into a defacto 6 LL Supernova, would take several months, and each month, that tech is going to roll to retire, or to find another job that doesnt have him doing completely insane complicated crap no one would ever do.

Just taking all a Firestarter A's medium lasers and replacing them with small pulse lasers and all the heat sinks to double, is the equivelant of having a custom AK47 made out of solid gold for you. Its that ridiculous.

But not that it cant be done.

But you also cant earn any money with your fancy awesome warmachine while it sits in a hangar bay for 5 months being turned into a JagerBomb.

Edited by KraftySOT, 19 March 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[Koniving]

On Omnimechs... They are customizeable within the rules, but it comes with some hefty drawbacks.

Koniving, on 05 March 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

You're right.
(I was thinking of the day I shoved a std in there).


After capturing one in a campaign, I had a number of issues. The engine broke down, a number of the weapons were destroyed, some actuators had to be replaced. I went through and replaced things with what I could get and it lost its omni status. So my Dire Wolf has been rockin' a standard ever since.

Koniving, on 06 March 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

Truth be told, you wouldn't want what was required to do it.

Several missions of use with broken parts that couldn't possibly be replaced with their appropriate goodness.
Going into a battle with a damaged engine producing an extra 0.5 heat per second (in lump sums of 5 every turn), knowing it'd stop functioning entirely if I lost the right side torso.

Losing the built-in CASE on every section I had to replace armor on.

Every maintenance cycle its performance would get worse and worse due to the technician -- despite being god-mode Star Trek Scotty the miracle worker good -- having to figure out how it works as he goes along.

Not being able to replace weapons as easily as the Clans could, because IS weapons are incompatible. So each one attached has performance issues [not reflected in the meklab] (extra heat, inaccurate, extra propensity to perma-jam, range-specific targeting [so accuracy penalties before and beyond certain ranges]).

After taking a through armor crit from a PPC, the engine started generating 10 heat per turn and I melted a huge chunk of heatsinks trying to keep the mech safe, sacrificing a few functioning mechs and losing two good pilots to keep that Dire Wolf from getting destroyed.

Months where it had to be left in a facility couldn't be used to replace the engine -- which was the expected time. The actual time was 13 months in total and even then the engine has poor acceleration, so every time I remain stationary for a turn, the next turn my 3 hex 'cruising speed' counts as 'running' with all the accuracy reductions associated with it.

It's a mechanical nightmare.

KraftySOT, on 19 March 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

See in Battletech, 'doing stuff' has two components when it comes to resupply, or repair, or customization (its really all the same thing). The "to hit" to do it and "the time" it takes to have it done.

If you have 40 minutes between two fights, and it takes 180 minutes to repair your armor, you dont get your armor repaired.

You should check out "What 4x3 cost us" on the signature.
CW based on all the information given, assuming a single match setup, mercenary bid/fight system, garrison building, turret building, repair and rearm, logistics, etc.

[KraftySOT]

Yup, thats why I set a high cost modifier for Clan stuff, to dissuade me from buying it and to get more loot when I sell it off piecemeal.

Its a maintenance nightmare. Every maint cycle, all of its parts quality declines because no one ill ever have in my crew can even attempt to maintain those things anywhere outside of a factory.

And whose got time to sit around endlessly on Hesperus II waiting for some hot wheels car for some dumb rich kid to come out of the shop, just so it can wreck face for one battle/contract, and then need endless expensive repairs at a mech factory again.

Id be spending all my time shipping things back to Hesp II and not actually playing any megamek.

Clicking refresh on the Hire Techs window for hours...

Koniving, on 19 March 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

You should check out "What 4x3 cost us" on the signature.
CW based on all the information given, assuming a single match setup, mercenary bid/fight system, garrison building, turret building, repair and rearm, logistics, etc.

Yup

Some day im going to have to play Clans in a megamek campaign.

I dont even know how to go about that since money isnt an issue.

Edited by KraftySOT, 19 March 2015 - 03:34 PM.

[Koniving]

Megamek sort of lacks certain aspects that it desperately needs, like the glory / trial system. Essentially it'd be akin to using trials to get stuff, and performance during missions to ascertain your worth.

Trial of position.
Trial of possession
etc.

MM doesn't have a system for it yet.

[Koniving]

There is this, Krafty.

Quote

Merchant Caste
The merchant caste is charged with the acquisition and/or manufacture of the raw materials and tools necessary for a Clan to function. Free-traders, machinists, artisans and a wide range of other sub-castes all serve to make their Clan wealthy, for a Clan with a strong economy tends to have a strong military (though as was the case with Clan Diamond Shark too much emphasis on mercantile pursuits can result in their influence overshadowing even the warrior caste).

In general the warriors maintain control over the merchants through interstellar travel. While the merchant caste maintains their own nonmilitary vessels, including technician and laborer crews, they are often pressed into military service, with a warrior captain placed in command of the ship. Likewise any vessel traveling outside Clan space is supposed to be accompanied by a warrior observer with the power to overrule the merchant captain's decision. Since the Clan's expansion into the Inner Sphere though a lack of warriors trained for the task means the requirement is often ignored. The merchant caste was the second-largest caste in 3062, accounting for 18.58% of the total Clan population with 213,976,500 members, and enjoyed an average life expectancy of 71.9 years.

This literally reminds me of Star Ctiizen.


However, further digging has revealed the Kerensky.

Quote

Economy

The Clans utilize a strong centralized economic system dedicated to supporting their military forces, with a heavy focus on efficiency and recycling even in daily life. The merchant caste oversees all aspect of economic activity, from the running of major industries like manufacturing, farming and mining to the monolithic trading houses which control the distribution of goods within each Clan and the transactions of goods between them. Elements of high finance such as futures speculation do exist but again these are dedicated to providing the essential needs of the Clan; the concept of acquiring wealth simply for the sake of it is an alien concept to Clansmen.[45][46]

Goods and Services

Clan society is largely moneyless, with the average Clansman being "paid" in electronic work credits. These credits can be used to purchase standard items from official stores, bars and other establishments, with a record of these transactions kept and examined to determine an individual's socioeconomic profile. However all goods are officially the property of each Clan which, along with any unused work credits, can be redistributed at will by the leadership. These measures also help serve as a means of exerting control over the general population.[45][46][64]

Each Clansman receives work credit on a monthly basis, the exact amount determined by their grade. While the warrior caste consist of seven grades and for the most part can requisition whatever they need, among the civilian castes are a total of twenty-five grades, from the lowest Grade One to the highest Grade Twenty-Five. Besides determining how much each person is paid, grades also determine an individual's access to other amenities including housing, transport and health care. For example higher graded personnel are given more spacious and luxurious housing, though all but the most senior individuals live in apartment blocks. In addition sub-categories exist within each grade depending on the individual's role: a strenuous job involving hard labor requires a higher caloric intake, and thus that person is granted larger food allowances than someone with a sedentary position.[42]

Civilian caste members are organized into work teams, their size depending on their caste and job, and given a task to perform known as a "work target." Representing a full day's work, work targets are based on age, skills and caste, and can be as simple as producing a given number of products in a day or involve more long-term and complex projects. Exceeding your work target can be rewarded with an increase in grade, while consistently failing to meet it can cause a loss in grade or even banishment. Given the fact that there are limits to the amount of work to be done, this limits the amount of work credits available. Work teams not only compete with each other to achieve or exceed their work target, they also seek to maximize their limited resources by getting rid of any "dead weight," reporting any Clansman who fails to meet their work allocation or impedes the efforts of others. Everyone is expected to work - even school-age children take apprenticeships and vocational training to supplement their education - and if you cannot you starve. This explains why the mortality rate is much higher among the Clans than in the Inner Sphere: besides the harsher conditions, medical attention is more likely to go to highly-skilled individuals who contribute most to society rather than low-skilled and easily-replaced workers or those whose injuries or old age prevent them from working.[42]

High Finance

For transactions between different Clans the merchant caste makes use of a form of currency known as the Kerensky (KE). This "macro-currency" allows financial institutions to operate and for the smooth transfer of goods without having to barter materials. Largely electronic, physical forms of Kerenskies do exist for limited use: small coins two centimeters across represent denominations of 1, 5, 10 and 20 KE, while larger two-by-four centimeter rectangular blocks represent larger values of 100, 1,000, 100,000 and 1,000,000. Both coins and blocks are minted in gold and contain ID chips and chemical compounds to prevent forgery.[45][46]

Most profits made by the merchant caste come from traditional exchange of materials, however several also put emphasis on futures trade. Clan Diamond Shark was the main proponent of these ventures, as was Clan Nova Cat before becoming outcasts. By buying up the necessary equipment one Clan can underwrite another Clan's mining or exploration effort in exchange for a percent of the profit. If successful profit is made at minimal effort, while failure means the Clan must absorb the expense.[65]

Maintaining and tracking the flow of work credits and Kerenskies is the job of each Clan's "central bank," in truth a series of institutions associated with major mercantile concerns. Besides working with the civilian administration to arrange the transfer and remuneration of funds, they also serve to provide loans, especially by those with the most assets. The borrower must pay a fee determined by the duration of the loan and sum involved, and must put up collateral equal in value to the loan. A default on the loan results in ownership of the collateral passing to the institution, even in the rare cases when the loan is made to another Clan. Refusing to honor the deal is possible but such a thing happens just as infrequently. The Jade Falcon Clan in particular earned a reputation for their banking practices, giving rise to the phrase "as sharp as the talons of a Falcon banker."[65]

So it's a fair bit in depth.

[Koniving]

Yeah, I'm not seeing any way to use a Faction's native finances or Clan Kerenskys or other systems.

On a side note because an IM basically wound up having me list them...

Here's the rules I do not use. Every OTHER rule is in fact turned on. (Also the initiative rules I started using recently; all other Initiative Rules are turned off.) I'm sharing as this may also help other people trying to get into Megamek HQ (campaign play).

Spoiler

It'll be easier to let you know what I do not use.

"Blind Drop" and its extensions.
"Allow ammo dumping in lobby"
Allow Command-line Nukes
Allow experimental/unofficial ammo types.
Sensors reveal all unit information
Ignore Clan ammo limitations
Canon units only.
No igniting clear hexes
All units have EI cockpit
Extreme Temperature Survivor (haven't had a reason to try this yet)
Limited mechwarrior visibility
Mechwarriors cannot spot
Maxtech Movement Mods (Haven't tried this yet)
Alternate better MASC
Compute BV
Increase overheating penalty in BV calc
Alternate pilot skill mod

Through armor crits float
Kinder rapid fire autocannons
No through armor crits
Indirect LRM always possible
Increased AC damage
Increased IS ER LL range
Unjam Ultra ACs
Ultra to hit rolled twice
Clubs like punches
CASE reduce damage
Do not Force primary target on front arc
Reduced damage to VTOL rotor hits

Vehicle Lance Movement
Mek Lance Movement (bots kinda ignore this anyway and I can't get it to work for me either, so why bother?)
AutoAbandon
No charge attacks for hovercraft
Jumping into woods PSR
Ejected pilots flee



Anything on Aerospace (I've yet to use them so I never looked through the rules)

On Initiative rules, these are turned on:
Individual Initiative
Simultaneous Deployment
Simultaneous Movement
Simultaneous Target
Simultaneous Attack
Simultaneous Physical
Initiative Streak Compensation

Victory conditions are dynamic with each mission so they change each time.

-----------
For campaigns and things that carry on:
Use "Megamek HQ"
It also has its own options..
Repair and Acquisition tab:
Repair options: All checked, no digit changes
Acquisition: Defaults
Maintenance: Defaults
Delivery: Defaults

Tech Limits: Defaults.

Personnel: Check everything, change no digits.

Finances: Check everything, change no digits.
Mercenary: Defaults.

Experience: Defaults
Skills: Don't touch -- this tab can be buggy.
Special Abilities: Scared to touch this.
Skill Randomization: Check extra randomness, do nothing else.
Don't touch Rank system -- this doesn't really matter anyway.

Name and Portrait Generation: Personal Preferences. I have it all enabled.

Personnel Market: Strat Ops, don't touch

ATB: If playing against the bot and not players, enable. I use stock rules, change how you please.

Now acquire some mechs (you can use GM mode to cheat a little here to get started, and right click to acquire things instantly). Give them pilots, Techs and some AsTechs.
Now set up a mission and have fun.

(There's space travel, mission creating, etc. Play with it, or enjoy the against the bot stuff which kinda creates stuff for you).
Launch on a mission, it'll open up regular Megamek, do last second changes/additions, play, and when it finishes it will save something that Megamek HQ will then open and look at, saying "Okay so these things happened. Correct?" You can change outcomes (like if a pilot died and you didn't want that) and such, then deal with the aftermath.