268 replies to this topic

[J0anna]

VagGR, on 19 September 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

i agree but the thing with TWs is not that a few guys compleined about them. And i'm sure that the Devs dont run around nerfing mechs everytime someone starts crying about some mech. there is clearly something wrong with the TWs and needs fixing. you can see it in the queue numbers and you can see it ingame. If you ask me i'd say hitboxes. i'd hate to see the the TW get the victor treatment even though i dont own one (yet).

First, this game isn't (nor should it be) balanced for 1 v 1, it's supposed to be balanced for 12 v 12.

Second, since the choice for clan heavy mechs atm is Timber Wolf or Summoner, are you really surprised that clan players aren't using the Summoner? Wait until the Mad Dog and the Hellbringer come out (I for one will use the Hellbringer far more than any other clan mech, as it was the first clan mech I ever played in TT).

Third, nerfing the Timber Wolf directly is a bad business decision. There is a reason it sold all it's gold mech's. It extremely iconic, and very, very popular.

Fourth, it appears PGI is going through with the XL engine nerf, let this take effect before trying any specific mech nerfs. Otherwise you are going to mix too many variables in at once.

Bottom line, stop whining, just because you lost to a mech doesn't mean that mech is overpowered. To truly judge a mech, you need to pilot it (as well as against it). Let's see what the result of the xl engine nerf is, as well as the IS buffs, before addressing a single mech.

[Torgun]

Metus regem, on 19 September 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

-sigh- I said most of what I see are jager's, 'phracts and Catapults, usualy 2 to 4 of those, often I see 2 to 3 Timber's counting myself... I had a game lastnight where I was the only Timber Wolf on my team, we had a Jager and a Catapult along with my Timber, the OPFOR had a Dragon Quickdraw and Summoner, the match took place in River City. I accounted for the Dragon and Quickdraw kills, but the Summoner got me in the end.

Sure there are still a few Jaegers and Phracts, but you see a lot of Catapults? I see like 1 every 7-8 games or so. And Quickdraws, you see them often? I saw one back in April. Only one clan mech in the match? Never ever happened for me, not even just 3 clan mechs has happened ever since they were released. And I'm a quite average player with average stats. You're basically describing MWO from at least 1 year ago, which does not exist anymore.

[Mystere]

Metus regem, on 19 September 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

People cryed about the Victor's and Highlanders being OP, and look what happened to them... How often do you really see them in a match these days?

People cryed about Gauss Rifles and PPC's well look what happened there...

People cryed about the poptarts, look what happened to Jump Jets...

All I ask is you use that thing in your head called a brain, and try to think about what extra effects could happen if something gets nerfed into the ground.

I don't give a freaking care. Those things killed me and therefore they need to be nerfed into the ground!
QQ! QQ!
Rant! Rant!
I will rage quit if you do not do as I demand!

[Metus regem]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Sure there are still a few Jaegers and Phracts, but you see a lot of Catapults? I see like 1 every 7-8 games or so. And Quickdraws, you see them often? I saw one back in April. Only one clan mech in the match? Never ever happened for me, not even just 3 clan mechs has happened ever since they were released. And I'm a quite average player with average stats. You're basically describing MWO from at least 1 year ago, which does not exist anymore.

I normally see lots Kit Foxes, they are great lights, when they work with the pack, I see mostly IS mediums, Storm Crows are a rare sight for me when running my Timber Wolves, very common when I run my War Hawk though. Nova's are in the mix too, for assaults it's usually DDC's and Dire Wolves that I see.

I wouldn't consider myself a great player, I'd say average maybe even on the low end of that... might be something to do with the times that I drop in at, I don't know, but I had a match the other day and spent a good portion of it chasing down a Quick Draw through Forest Colony. Those buggers can really move when they want too....

[Torgun]

Metus regem, on 19 September 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

I normally see lots Kit Foxes, they are great lights, when they work with the pack, I see mostly IS mediums, Storm Crows are a rare sight for me when running my Timber Wolves, very common when I run my War Hawk though. Nova's are in the mix too, for assaults it's usually DDC's and Dire Wolves that I see.

I wouldn't consider myself a great player, I'd say average maybe even on the low end of that... might be something to do with the times that I drop in at, I don't know, but I had a match the other day and spent a good portion of it chasing down a Quick Draw through Forest Colony. Those buggers can really move when they want too....

TimberWolves are by far the most used mech, and even though some of the owners like to claim it's only because they like it and it's fun etc there is a reason it persists being the most used mech month after month, even though it's still just released for paying players. And no it's not just "because I like it", it's always the same reason something gets overly used in a PvP environment.

Edited by Torgun, 19 September 2014 - 01:21 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

So you're saying you had a TW that clearly was built more for sniping with all energy that ran really hot and came across an opponent that had mainly ballistics and ran way cooler and you lost in a close-range duel? That is your proof that TW is a-okay? Just run that through your mind once more, and post again afterwards.

It doesn't run hot, not in a 20 second fire fight anyway. Built it that way specifically. In fact I never reached more than 70% heat in that fight before I died. He also didn't headshot me, it was a straight up CT coring.

Also that was just one of many, many examples I have seen both while piloting a Timber Wolf and fighting against them. Another example, my Best Timber Wolf has a 1.89 K/D ratio. My Battlemaster has a 2.60 K/D. Inexplicable at least based on the current theory that the TW is OPed, my Battlemaster out performs it significantly. Does that make the Battlemaster Uber OPed? If so why aren't people complaining about the Battlemaster?

Point I am trying to make is I just don't see the practical evidence that the TW is OPed. My stats don't reflect it, I am not dominating the game in it and it isn't even my best performing mech. Also all the arguments for the TW being OPed aren't based on it doing any of this stuff either, rather it is just people saying its too versatile, can perform too many roles or just is too popular. None of that has anything to do with actually being OP.

People just seem to be butt hurt by the fact that it can assume the role of a jump capable striker, or LRM boat, or SRM Brawler or Dakka or Sniper or whatever. News flash it can't do all this at once. Hell we can even use your example and follow your logic. You claim the reason I got worked was because I was a energy heavy sniper build against a brawler at short range well ok fine, I still got worked. If it had been reversed and the enemy I faced was the energy heavy sniper and I was the brawler but we engaged at 600m, guess what, I would still have got worked. How is this not balanced?

But no, according to all the fluff, the TW is OP and dominates and if it is so OPed then it shouldn't matter I was in a energy heavy sniper build. I mean I was facing a mere IS Ilya after all, clearly a substandard mech and my TW uberness should always overcome right? I mean because that is what people seem to keep complaining about right?

Edited by Viktor Drake, 19 September 2014 - 01:25 PM.

[Metus regem]

I usually run them to work on their XP track, once I'm out of the double xp, I swap to my Adder, then to the War Hawk, then the Storm Crow, and if I still have a bit of time, then I hop back on my Timber's mostly due to my affinity for them since MW2.

[Torgun]

Viktor Drake, on 19 September 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

It doesn't run hot, not in a 20 second fire fight anyway. Built it that way specifically. In fact I never reached more than 70% heat in that fight before I died. He also didn't headshot me, it was a straight up CT coring.

Also that was just one of many, many examples I have seen both while piloting a Timber Wolf and fighting against them. Another example, my Best Timber Wolf has a 1.89 K/D ratio. My Battlemaster has a 2.60 K/D. Inexplicable at least based on the current theory that the TW is OPed, my Battlemaster out performs it significantly. Does that make the Battlemaster Uber OPed? If so why aren't people complaining about the Battlemaster?

Point I am trying to make is I just don't see the practical evidence that the TW is OPed. My stats don't reflect it, I am not dominating the game in it and it isn't even my best performing mech. Also all the arguments for the TW being OPed aren't based on it doing any of this stuff either, rather it is just people saying its too versatile, can perform too many roles or just is too popular. None of that has anything to do with actually being OP.

People just seem to be butt hurt by the fact that it can assume the role of a jump capable striker, or LRM boat, or SRM Brawler or Dakka or Sniper or whatever. News flash it can't do all this at once. Hell we can even use your example and follow your logic. You claim the reason I got worked was because I was a energy heavy sniper build against a brawler at short range well ok fine, I still got worked. If it had been reversed and the enemy I faced was the energy heavy sniper and I was the brawler but we engaged at 600m, guess what, I would still have got worked. How is this not balanced?

But no, according to all the fluff, the TW is OP and dominates and if it is so OPed then it shouldn't matter I was in a energy heavy sniper build, I was facing a mere IS Ilya after all, clearly a substandard mech and my TW uberness show always overcome right? I mean because that is what people seem to keep complaining about right?

You're making no sense at all man, going straight into a brawl with one of the most powerful brawl builds using your all energy build is just silly. And also you have to consider that the UAC5s are very random in performance since they can be totally devastating or pretty frustrating depending on how much they end up jamming. Never ever has anyone claimed the Ilya is substandard in a brawl, rather it's the opposite. Well actually you're the first one that I've ever seen claim it's substandard, which should tell you how way off mark you are. After seeing your example of how you play the TW I'm hardly surprised that you have way lower KDR in it than what you could have.

Edited by Torgun, 19 September 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[Mystere]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

TimberWolves are by far the most used mech, and even though some of the owners like to claim it's only because they like it and it's fun etc there is a reason it persists being the most used mech month after month, even though it's still just released for paying players. And no it's not just "because I like it", it's always the same reason something gets overly used in a PvP environment.

Yes, I have been using my Timber Wolf a lot because I wanted to bring all of them to master level. Now that I have just finished, I will start doing the same to the Summoner, followed the Warhawk, then the Dire Wolf.

Some people are just too presumptuous.

[Torgun]

Mystere, on 19 September 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Yes, I have been using my Timber Wolf a lot because I wanted to bring all of them to master level. Now that I have just finished, I will start doing the same to the Summoner, followed the Warhawk, then the Dire Wolf.

Some people are just too presumptuous.

I see at least 3x as many TW as I do Summoner, that's terribly presumptuous of me to think it's because the TW is way better. Heh.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

TimberWolves are by far the most used mech, and even though some of the owners like to claim it's only because they like it and it's fun etc there is a reason it persists being the most used mech month after month, even though it's still just released for paying players. And no it's not just "because I like it", it's always the same reason something gets overly used in a PvP environment.

The T.Wolf is the most popular mech in Battletech history, is it not? I think you are underestimating how many people would still pilot it, even if it was subpar. Just look at the public opinion of the Summoner, and how many Summoner fans pilot it nonstop anyway.

[Torgun]

Kevjack, on 19 September 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

The T.Wolf is the most popular mech in Battletech history, is it not? I think you are underestimating how many people would still pilot it, even if it was subpar. Just look at the public opinion of the Summoner, and how many Summoner fans pilot it nonstop anyway.

As I said in my previous post, seems like having fans only take you so far, since Summoners are way underrepresented compared to TWs. If the TW played like the Summoner and vice versa, you really expect the ratio to stay the same? Really?

Edited by Torgun, 19 September 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Verdic Mckenna]

Look. Anytime you bring up Wolves and Kittens... well. Who would want to nerf this? I mean seriously... cmon guys. Don't you guys remember this love?



Hit boxes, get it!? MWAHAHAHAHA!

Edited by Verdic Mckenna, 19 September 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[shadN]

Sadist Cain, on 19 September 2014 - 01:58 AM, said:

I love Timberwolfs...

AS7-D-DC

They're delicious

Dude, you are so 90´s. Check the current 1200 m META!

[Angel of Annihilation]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Sure there are still a few Jaegers and Phracts, but you see a lot of Catapults? I see like 1 every 7-8 games or so. And Quickdraws, you see them often? I saw one back in April. Only one clan mech in the match? Never ever happened for me, not even just 3 clan mechs has happened ever since they were released. And I'm a quite average player with average stats. You're basically describing MWO from at least 1 year ago, which does not exist anymore.

Catapult was a substandard mech well before clans came out so I am not surprised the numbers dwindled. Has nothing to do with Timber Wolves though. The Quickdraw, one of the best IS mechs in my opinion, always was hated. Even in at its introduction, there weren't many of them. Again not because of the Timber Wolf.

Also there are only 8 Clan mech options available in this game and something like 30 IS mechs and if we count variants is is only 24 clan vs well over 180 IS variants. So when in general 50% give or take of the player base is clan Affiliated or plans to be in CW, why does it surprise you that you see multiple copies of the same clan mech in each match?

I mean think about it. We have two clan heavies the Timber Wolf and the Summoner and the Summoner generally sucks. So which Clan Heavy mech is Clan Affiliated players playing? Yep you guess it...Timber Wolves? Then of course we have a 3,3,3,3 match maker for each team so yep, chances are your going to have multiple Timber Wolfs on a team, no surprise there if you ask me.

IS mechs however, well you have 37 variant options for heavy mechs spread between 7 different mechs. Since you can only have 3 heavies per team and at least one or two of those is going to be a Timber Wolf since it is really the only good option for a Clan heavy, obviously your not going to be seeing many repeat situation where you have two Catapults or two Orions. This is simple logic really.

[MischiefSC]

On a Catapult you tend to aim above the cockpit for the CT.

On a TW, you aim below the cockpit. The CT on a TW is vulnerable from any angle. His snoot is all CT, front and sides.

You aim for the end of the Timby nose and you get nothing but CT.

[Torgun]

Viktor Drake, on 19 September 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Catapult was a substandard mech well before clans came out so I am not surprised the numbers dwindled. Has nothing to do with Timber Wolves though. The Quickdraw, one of the best IS mechs in my opinion, always was hated. Even in at its introduction, there weren't many of them. Again not because of the Timber Wolf.

Also there are only 8 Clan mech options available in this game and something like 30 IS mechs and if we count variants is is only 24 clan vs well over 180 IS variants. So when in general 50% give or take of the player base is clan Affiliated or plans to be in CW, why does it surprise you that you see multiple copies of the same clan mech in each match?

I mean think about it. We have two clan heavies the Timber Wolf and the Summoner and the Summoner generally sucks. So which Clan Heavy mech is Clan Affiliated players playing? Yep you guess it...Timber Wolves? Then of course we have a 3,3,3,3 match maker for each team so yep, chances are your going to have multiple Timber Wolfs on a team, no surprise there if you ask me.

IS mechs however, well you have 37 variant options for heavy mechs spread between 7 different mechs. Since you can only have 3 heavies per team and at least one or two of those is going to be a Timber Wolf since it is really the only good option for a Clan heavy, obviously your not going to be seeing many repeat situation where you have two Catapults or two Orions. This is simple logic really.

The problem with your calculation is that you've totally disregarded that TW are not even available for CBills yet, and still it garners such an overrepresentation. What do you think will happen when they're sold for CBills? Just try and guess that outcome if you will. But then again by then it's probably going to be nerfed already, which means only the paying guys get to play the original TW for the 6 months or so they're only available for real $$$.

[VagGR]

Moenrg, on 19 September 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

First, this game isn't (nor should it be) balanced for 1 v 1, it's supposed to be balanced for 12 v 12.

Second, since the choice for clan heavy mechs atm is Timber Wolf or Summoner, are you really surprised that clan players aren't using the Summoner? Wait until the Mad Dog and the Hellbringer come out (I for one will use the Hellbringer far more than any other clan mech, as it was the first clan mech I ever played in TT).

Third, nerfing the Timber Wolf directly is a bad business decision. There is a reason it sold all it's gold mech's. It extremely iconic, and very, very popular.

Fourth, it appears PGI is going through with the XL engine nerf, let this take effect before trying any specific mech nerfs. Otherwise you are going to mix too many variables in at once.

Bottom line, stop whining, just because you lost to a mech doesn't mean that mech is overpowered. To truly judge a mech, you need to pilot it (as well as against it). Let's see what the result of the xl engine nerf is, as well as the IS buffs, before addressing a single mech.

first - where in my posts did you see me asking for 1v1 balance. try reading more carefully pls.

second - im not surprised by anything. im worried. i m worried because the heavy queue is full of TWs and there was a guy a few posts back arguing that he sees more quickdraws than TWs...

Third - so is leaving it as is, the clear heavy choice by far! what about all those players that spent real money on other chassis. what about all the resources PGI put into the other chassis? waste?

fourth - i completely agree. never said otherwise. but if that doesnt do the job ther ehas to be "some kind" of balance action taken on the TW.

Bottom line im not complaining, never have, never will. stop being so defensive about your precious TW. I'm trying to have a contstructive conversation and im explaining my thoughts against the "the TW is just fine" crowd.

Edited by VagGR, 19 September 2014 - 01:59 PM.

[Davegt27]

hey don't be nerfing the TW they been kicking my butt since I started 3 months ago my LRM will hardly lock on those things

I have been saving up to get one so don't screw things up

plus they look cool you cant nerf cool mechs

[Metus regem]

VagGR, on 19 September 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Bottom line im not complaining, never have, never will. stop being so defensive about your precious TW. I'm trying to have a contstructive conversation and im explaining my thoughts against the "the TW is just fine" crowd.

That maybe true, but a lot of what is happening is the "OMFG TW is so OP!!!!oneoneone1111" group is trying to use your topic as a jumping off point to go on some tangent about the unit.

If you run it meta, is it nasty? yup! If you run it closer to lore, is it nasty? Can be if you fight it on it's terms. fight it on your terms or group gank it.