90 replies to this topic

[Riverboat Sam]

The ONLY reason Clan mechs appear to be OP is because they currently get to drop with IS team mates. This is totally obvious if you give it even five seconds of thought. Consider just these points:

• The IS has a whole class of mechs that the Clan does not have - lights. Sure, the Kitfox and Adder are called lights, but they are nothing like IS lights. Their speed and agility are equal to IS mediums - and they have much less armor. The Clan has NO ANSWER to Ravens, Jenners, Spiders, etc. etc. In any one on one match, given two pilots of equal skill, an IS light will tear apart any Clan mech 9 out of 10 times. And yes, that includes the Timberwolf. The Clan mechs are so slow that the Clan pilot will likely never even see the IS light the entire match.
  
• I heard some savant on an NGNG podcast claim that Clan mechs are obviously OP just because they have XL engines that can loose one torso. Really? REALLY? As an IS pilot you have the CHOICE of rolling with any standard or XL engine you like. You can switch them out mission to mission. That's a HUGE advantage. A Clanner is stuck with the (mostly) under-powered engine their mech comes with. Ever seen a Dire Wolf lumbering along at 45 KPH? That's the best that mech will ever do. There are several IS assault mechs that can hit 80 KPH and more. The IS has the total advantage in the engine and speed area across their entire range of mechs.
  
• One word. ECM. The IS has an array of mechs that can bring ECM. They can bring a virtual blanket of ECM to the battlefield. What can the Clan do? Bring the Kitfox. One chassis. Given two 12 mech teams the IS can afford to bring 6 to 8 ECM mechs without effecting their mix of weight classes. The IS can even split off dedicated wolf pack lances of lights and Cicada's with ECM - without leaving their main force short of ECM at all. The Clan can only afford to bring half the amount of ECM at best, and those Kitfoxes dare not leave their Dire Wolves and Timber Wolves for a second - if they do their heavies and assaults will get LRM'd into dust.

Yes, the Clan have Omni Pod architecture. What does that mean really? That any one variant of any Clan mech is essentially the same as all the others of that chassis. That does not limit the IS from selecting the variant with the best load out for a particular chassis. It does not give any material advantage to either side.

Finally, yes, the Clan have much longer range and harder hitting weapons. It was the one and only thing they had going for them. That has been and continues to be nerfed into the dust patch by patch.

Players don't think that Clan mechs are OP because a Clan mech dropping in a pre-made group with support from IS lights and fast assaults and heavies is supreme. With all that backup the Clan assault can bring his superior weaponry to bear.

It's going to be an entirely different story when the Clan and IS mechs have to drop separately once Community Warfare hits. The IS guys will be mopping the floor with the Clanners in every match. The Clanners will have to castle up in a blob and move at the pace of their slowest assault mechs - 45 KPH. The IS teams, if they're smart, will bring all mechs that run 80 KPH or better. They will be able to circle, flank, and pick apart the Clan blob at will. They will have to stay out of the reach the Clan weapons util their sniper teams kill off the Kitfoxes. Then they will just LRM the Clanners into the dirt. The IS Catapults won't even need to take armor. They can carry full missile loads and have no fear at all of being run down by lights - because the Clan have NO lights. In short, it will be a turkey shoot match after match after match.

I think that's what Russ is beginning to worry about. And well he should.

[Nyden]

They ran a clan vs. IS test tuesday or wednesday. The all clans teams won 73% of the time, according to Russ. With those numbers it seems fairly clear that clan mechs are still more powerful than IS mechs.

[meteorol]

Enlil09, on 19 September 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

It's going to be an entirely different story when the Clan and IS mechs have to drop separately once Community Warfare hits. The IS guys will be mopping the floor with the Clanners in every match.

Guess you missed that part where Clans won 90% of the matches in the first clan vs IS test and 73% in the second (after the laser nerfs)?

Edited by meteorol, 19 September 2014 - 06:57 AM.

[Mcgral18]

meteorol, on 19 September 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Guess you missed that part where Clans won 90% of the matches in the first clan vs IS test and 73% in the second (after the laser nerfs)?

I'm still not convinced PUG matches are the place to do these test.

One match I was placed with 4 Champs and multiple sub sub-optimal mechs. It was an IS vs IS, and it was a stomp, as one would expect. Clans wouldn't have changed that.


I only got 3 IS vs Clan matches this time around, so not enough to use them as an argument either way. IS won twice, Clan once.

[Kain Demos]

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

I'm still not convinced PUG matches are the place to do these test.

One match I was placed with 4 Champs and multiple sub sub-optimal mechs. It was an IS vs IS, and it was a stomp, as one would expect. Clans wouldn't have changed that.


I only got 3 IS vs Clan matches this time around, so not enough to use them as an argument either way. IS won twice, Clan once.

Not only that but think about 'mech accessibility. Which 'mechs do new players have access to? Which 'mechs will they be likely to pilot?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

It is not a meme, the Clans are more powerful. Weapons and engine are the biggest factors here. I think we're moving in the right direction with weapons now. I would like to see IS weapons become a little cooler though. They you have hot-long range vs. cool-short range. That also helps with the Endo, Ferro, DHS problem. Sure the Clans have more crit slots available to them but they also need to fill them up with DHS. Then the IS can run better on the fewer DHS they can mount.

We know that some kind of Clan XL engine nerf is coming, I think that it cannot be too sever because they don't have a choice of engine and many of them suffer from Stalker Torso Syndrome. Instead, I would like to look at making IS engines more durable. Come up with whatever fluff reason you want.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Hey hey now.

I paid good money to stomp ineffectual teenagers and jobless adults into the dirt.

Kidding kidding, and totally kidding Just having some fun on a Friday.

[Koniving]

After the laser nerfs, the Clan pulse lasers might have received range nerfs, but the 0.7 second beam times at 11+ damage for large pulse lasers are a huge advantage.

In fact, pulse lasers are really the only good weapon that Clans are running at this moment. ER PPCs + Gauss? Gone to crap.
Streaks or SRMs? Completely outdone by the superior damage of IS SRMs.
Autocannon to autocannon? IS wins every time, even with inferior numbers of ACs. (Banshee is vastly superior to Dire Wolf when it comes to head to head, march at each other, NO torso twisting direct fire CT to CT, Banshee ALWAYS wins with 3 AC/5s against random mixed numbers of UAC/10s, UAC/20s, UAC/5s and UAC/2s.
LRMs, Clans are slightly better because the stream fire is more CT-bound and the rattle really throws off aim. Not to mention with stream fire the ghost heat almost doesn't exist.
Gauss? Clans do a bit better here, it's easier to see when the Gauss is charged up or not. This is a color HUD problem, not a superior Gauss problem.

[SI The Joker]

I'm gonna put this out there, too. When I played during that test... yes Clans were winning often but I gotta tell you - I saw alot of what I would normally call competent pilots intentionally throwing themselves at lines of Clan mechs. Running out into the open chasing a Kitfox when normally they'd stay back.

I'm not sure how to get a truly accurate representation of the balance of these mechs... but using folks who intentionally skew the results probably isn't helping much.

[WarHippy]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Streaks or SRMs? Completely outdone by the superior damage of IS SRMs.

Don't SRMs do 2 damage be it IS or Clan? I know Clan streaks have really long cool downs, but what is the superior damage you are talking about? For that matter CLPL is a 1.3ish second beam time isn't it? Unless I missed something somewhere.

Edited by WarHippy, 19 September 2014 - 07:25 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Longer Cool down Lower DpS???

[Riverboat Sam]

Rouken, on 19 September 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

It is not a meme, the Clans are more powerful. Weapons and engine are the biggest factors here. I think we're moving in the right direction with weapons now. I would like to see IS weapons become a little cooler though. They you have hot-long range vs. cool-short range. That also helps with the Endo, Ferro, DHS problem. Sure the Clans have more crit slots available to them but they also need to fill them up with DHS. Then the IS can run better on the fewer DHS they can mount.

We know that some kind of Clan XL engine nerf is coming, I think that it cannot be too sever because they don't have a choice of engine and many of them suffer from Stalker Torso Syndrome. Instead, I would like to look at making IS engines more durable. Come up with whatever fluff reason you want.

Perhaps if the matchmaker made your IS mech invulnerable against all Clan weapons in any match you join you would then consider the Clan mech "balanced".

But seriously, this is a meme if ever there was one. It just self perpetuates across all the forum groups. Once community warfare comes out prepare to be, "shocked!, totally shocked!", at how much the Clans suck.

[Mcgral18]

WarHippy, on 19 September 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Don't SRMs do 2 damage be it IS or Clan? I know Clan streaks have really long cool downs, but what is the superior damage you are talking about? For that matter CLPL is a 1.3ish second beam time isn't it? Unless I missed something somewhere.

2.15 for the isSRMs.

2.5 or 3.0 damage would be significant, but 1.5 MG bullets isn't quite that. Half weight, or 50% more damage? Seems fair.

[Koniving]

Rouken, on 19 September 2014 - 07:13 AM, said:

We know that some kind of Clan XL engine nerf is coming, I think that it cannot be too sever because they don't have a choice of engine and many of them suffer from Stalker Torso Syndrome. Instead, I would like to look at making IS engines more durable. Come up with whatever fluff reason you want.

I really wish the IS mechs would grow some damn balls and run standard engines.
I've got medium mechs that can outlast the armor of Dire Wolves, Warhawks and Timber Wolves. Why? Standard engine.
Run with skill, many mechs can really survive with standard engines, especially since they always expect you in an XL engine.

I had a Wolverine last night in a group queue that lost the right arm, right torso, left arm, and then the left torso all individually and I still had a weapon to use. The amount of damage I took is easily more than what's needed to kill a Dire Wolf, and I barely had more than an inkling above half of the Dire Wolf's armor.

Clan mechs are also considerably larger with side torsos as large as an Awesome's CT, making those so much easier to take out. The Clan assaults essentially have even larger STs than that with a huge CT to boot.



Far as what they lose if they lose a side torso?
Lets take a Warhawk.
Stock loadout. Elited.

Cooling Rate : 3.91 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 76.8

Loses left torso.
Cooling Rate : 3.27 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 70.08

That's just the 4 DHS in the left torso. As well as losing the left arm with 2 energy and 1 missile.

The typical Atlas loses 2 missile and 1 energy for the same thing, and might lose 2 heatsinks instead.
Lets take a Dire Wolf Prime. Stock.

Cooling Rate : 4.23 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 80.16
Left or right torso lost loses 4 heatsinks. Loses a minimum of 5 weapons.

Cooling Rate : 3.59 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 73.44

That's stock. Most non-stock builds are running even more heatsinks in the arms, losing even more cooling power and maximum heat.

There's exactly one mech that isn't massively affected by losing a side torso. That's a Timber Wolf.

Why not do something like make heatsinks matter that much more... locking a 30 threshold, 2.0 heatsinks, and reduce the health on heatsinks by 1/3rd for Clan heatsinks. Truth be told "1" critical hit on a heatsink is supposed to disable it no matter how weak the weapon is. But for AC/5s you have to have a minimum of 2 critical hits in MWO, up to 5 critical hits for an AC/2, up to 12 critical hits on the same heatsink from an MG. About 30-ish from lasers.

I mean I can agree with say an agility/speed nerf of a reasonable percentage, but some of the proposals I hear about Clan nerfs are so blatantly freaking stupid that it boggles the mind.

[Cyborne Elemental]

I still chalk the majority of those high clan win %'s as base player skill.

If you haven't put that together, I feel bad for you man.

Its veteran MWO and FPS players that are playing these clanmechs, Madcats, Diashi that are destroying the battlefield over and over again, people that know the game pretty well, know how it functions, what weapons work best, what to do and where to go on each map, how to work with/around their teamates.

The IS playerbase is a mixed bag, you have alot more New players that aren't going to invest into MWO yet, dropping in Trial mechs, or mechs that they havn't quite figured out yet ect, rambo players that still don't know any better, and lonewolfs that just go off and do their own thing just to get murdered and handicap their own team.

Its not going to be a good solid test for balance until you have tests performed with 100% veteran players for both IS and Clan players facing off in a controlled environment.

If these #'s are taken straight from the pubque and even the group que, its still going to be lopsided #'s leaning towards Clan victories.

Now on a side note, Diashi and madcat are inflating Clan victories alot, they're just superior mechs compared to anything the IS has right now, but it still comes down to player skill, and teamwork to win games.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Banshee is vastly superior to Dire Wolf when it comes to head to head, march at each other, NO torso twisting direct fire CT to CT, Banshee ALWAYS wins with 3 AC/5s against random mixed numbers of UAC/10s, UAC/20s, UAC/5s and UAC/2s.

I do not see a Banshee with 3 AC5s + whatever winning against some of the 5-6 UAC5 Direwolf builds if they do no defensive maneuvering.

Enlil09, on 19 September 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Perhaps if the matchmaker made your IS mech invulnerable against all Clan weapons in any match you join you would then consider the Clan mech "balanced".

But seriously, this is a meme if ever there was one. It just self perpetuates across all the forum groups. Once community warfare comes out prepare to be, "shocked!, totally shocked!", at how much the Clans suck.

Haven't touched an IS mech since the Clans arrived. So I'll thank you to not try and dismiss me as someone crying because I got killed by a Clan mech. Even if it exhibits meme properties that does not make the observations untrue.

[Carrie Harder]

What I'm sick of seeing over and over and over again is people who try to make the claim that the Clans as a whole are overpowered. And by as a whole, I mean literally every chassis, variant, and weapon available. Not just Mad Cats and Ryokens and ER Medium Lasers, but also totally gimped things like Pumas and the LB 2-X.

Are some of the Clan chassis and guns a little OP? Yes. Are all of the Clan chassis and weapons OP? No. This is why people need to learn how to focus their attention for tweaks on the specific outliers rather than nerf the living bejesus out of the entire tech base just to vent their hatred of Mad Cats.

...

On a side note, I wish that the Clan XL conundrum would have been taken care of before all the heat nerfs. It would have had a similar effect but without totally stomping on mechs dependent on lasers like the No-va and Badder.

[Koniving]

WarHippy, on 19 September 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Don't SRMs do 2 damage be it IS or Clan? I know Clan streaks have really long cool downs, but what is the superior damage you are talking about? For that matter CLPL is a 1.3ish second beam time isn't it? Unless I missed something somewhere.

SRMs do 2.15 damage per missile.
IS "SRM 2 4.30 damage"
IS "SRM 4 8.60 damage."
IS "SRM 6 12.90 damage."

You are correct on the Clan LPL. 1.2 second beam time. One of the hidden balance changes in the last public test was potentially reducing the Clan LPL to 0.7 seconds (something I'm violently opposed to). It seems they haven't, but up against Clan LPLs I am definitely noticing a power difference so I thought they made that change already.

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

Clan Mechs aren't more powerful, Clan Weapons are.

They are more powerful than IS by:

Less Slots

Less Weight

Better Range

Less Slots=More room for heat syncs, which themselves take up less slots.

The only downside is:

More Heat (negated by having more slots for HS's)

Beam Duration on lasers (the only real downside to clan weapons)

Cannons aren't pinpoint like sphere (negated partially by the screen shake you can create with dakka)

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Gauss? Clans do a bit better here, it's easier to see when the Gauss is charged up or not. This is a color HUD problem, not a superior Gauss problem.

Clan Gauss takes less critical slot space, and weighs less while doing the same damage/range. How is that not an advantage?