90 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

The biggest problem i see (at least in my matches, solo queue) is IS full customization. I see many terrible builds from Atlas with flamers (or anything with flamers tbh) to Jagers with the AC's replaced with MG's or 4xlasers and only 2xAC's. Seriously, stop removing the most OP weapons in the game from Jagers!
LRM boats that get killed ridiculously easy because IS launchers are so heavy that you can't fit decent weapons, unlike clan launchers that are light enough to be viable with other weaponry.

Of course i have also seen full lances just walk into clan fire when it's a clan v IS match too

[Kain Demos]

Funny you mention the Jagers..........dual gauss Jager is so strong but I can't tell you how many times I've died and then spectated a guy running a Jager with 4 x ML 4 x MG or some other stupid ****.

[J0anna]

Nyden, on 19 September 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

They ran a clan vs. IS test tuesday or wednesday. The all clans teams won 73% of the time, according to Russ. With those numbers it seems fairly clear that clan mechs are still more powerful than IS mechs.

The problem with quoting numbers like that is that you have no idea what went into calculating them. Did the IS teams include new players in trial mechs (most likely yes), did the clan teams (No clan trials, so no). What was the average ELO difference? How many teams had mechs that weren't mastered? What was the average difference in weight? What mechs did the highest ELO players on each team pilot? Did the teams have balanced ecm? Were the clan teams composed of the 'best' clan mechs? Was that the same with the IS teams? The bottom line is that 'facts' can be used to make any argument you wish. Thus Russ was right in saying this latest round of balance changes made the matches much closer and that buffs to IS mechs is the better way to go.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Far as what they lose if they lose a side torso?
Lets take a Warhawk.
Stock loadout. Elited.

Cooling Rate : 3.91 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 76.8

Loses left torso.
Cooling Rate : 3.27 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 70.08

That's just the 4 DHS in the left torso. As well as losing the left arm with 2 energy and 1 missile.

The typical Atlas loses 2 missile and 1 energy for the same thing, and might lose 2 heatsinks instead.
Lets take a Dire Wolf Prime. Stock.

Cooling Rate : 4.23 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 80.16
Left or right torso lost loses 4 heatsinks. Loses a minimum of 5 weapons.

Cooling Rate : 3.59 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 73.44

That's stock. Most non-stock builds are running even more heatsinks in the arms, losing even more cooling power and maximum heat.

There's exactly one mech that isn't massively affected by losing a side torso. That's a Timber Wolf.

And this is why I support a heat penalty for losing a side. You end up with a way better cooling rating for your remaining weapons. I would at least like to see the same level of heat management before and after a side torso is gone. I don't think that is unreasonable at all. In truth, it would have to be a pretty big nerf to even become noticeable.

I'm not really a fan of a movement speed loss, though. If we do get one I hope it is fairly small.

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Why not do something like make heatsinks matter that much more... locking a 30 threshold, 2.0 heatsinks, and reduce the health on heatsinks by 1/3rd for Clan heatsinks. Truth be told "1" critical hit on a heatsink is supposed to disable it no matter how weak the weapon is. But for AC/5s you have to have a minimum of 2 critical hits in MWO, up to 5 critical hits for an AC/2, up to 12 critical hits on the same heatsink from an MG. About 30-ish from lasers.

I mean I can agree with say an agility/speed nerf of a reasonable percentage, but some of the proposals I hear about Clan nerfs are so blatantly freaking stupid that it boggles the mind.

I'm not super excited about the prospects of a low cap, high dissipation scheme. I like the twist and shoot style and I suspect that system would lead to more staring matches.

Edited by Rouken, 19 September 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Wolfways]

Kain Thul, on 19 September 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Funny you mention the Jagers..........dual gauss Jager is so strong but I can't tell you how many times I've died and then spectated a guy running a Jager with 4 x ML 4 x MG or some other stupid ****.

Yeah dual Gauss Jagers are great snipers, but their dps is low so if you get them in brawling range and have AC2/5's or a few SRM/Lasers you will generally rip the Jager apart. But that's the tradeoff for being a good sniper
My JM6-S has stock weapons and it easily destroy any other mech (except lights ) due to the high dps. Once you negate the targets cover and/or are supporting teammates it will shred anything easily.

Every time i see a Jager with AC's removed i die a little inside

[-Natural Selection-]

meteorol, on 19 September 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Guess you missed that part where Clans won 90% of the matches in the first clan vs IS test and 73% in the second (after the laser nerfs)?

yup. I also watched the clanners fight normal the first time around, while IS teams would run to back of the map and not fight. Even had one map them say in open chat to not do over 100 damage.

And the 2nd go around, clanners picked up on it and toned it down just the same.


NERFs? I have changed NONE of my primary builds and my average kill/damage per match has suffered NONE. Adjusted approach slightly and output remains the same.

Some people will rise to the challenge. Some will sit and wait for there to not be one..

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

Mickey Knoxx, on 19 September 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

IS teams would run to back of the map and not fight. Even had one map them say in open chat to not do over 100 damage.

Pug teams get spooked from taking damage while the enemy is 200m out of their max range. I did one clan/IS on Alpine, it wasn't pretty.

[Koniving]

Rouken, on 19 September 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

I do not see a Banshee with 3 AC5s + whatever winning against some of the 5-6 UAC5 Direwolf builds if they do no defensive maneuvering.

A Dire Wolf with 6 UAC/5s cannot function. Ghost heat is harsh on 4 UAC/5s. 6 UAC/5s is like firing 2 UAC/20s. You don't do it.

I had a 3 LPL, 2 MG, 2 Streak Atlas win against a Dire Wolf with 3 UAC/5s, 1 UAC/10, and 2 LBX-5s, he had support fire hitting me but I didn't have any help on my end. With LPLs you can't manuever because you have to focus those beams.

Those UAC/5s take 0.3 seconds to complete a single burst at 1.666666666666667 damage per shot. The jam can occur at ANY single shot. Fired 4 shots? Jam at 6.666666666666667 damage. Fired 2 shots? Jam at 3.333333333333333 damage. Fired 7 shots? Jam at 11.66666666666667 damage.

The UAC/10 takes 0.48 seconds to complete a single burst at 2.5 damage per shot. A jam can occur anywhere from 2.5 damage and jam to 7.5 damage and jam and so on.

The LBX-5s were the only reliable weapon he had, but they were scatter-shooting.

Now in comparison, I was doing spurts of 21.2 damage for durations of 0.6 seconds. Twice I did spurts of 31.8 damage for very minor ghost heat. Considering that when the fight started it was at less than 300 meters (he surprised me by trying to attack me from directly behind at the back of our entire force with 3 mechs helping him) and that the fight ended at 200+ meters because I kept closing in on him as he kept trying to get away from me, I'd say he knew how screwed he was.

Now that Banshee? With only 3 AC/5s and a single LPL, that's 15 damage in 0.2 seconds or less (the time it takes to reach the target), pure pinpoint every 1.58 seconds.

Lets take a 6.32 second engagement. Assume the range is 300 meters, where pinpoint can be achieved by both parties (at less than 300 meters the Dire Wolf can't do any kind of pinpoint damage and it spreads wide. At less than 200 meters it can spread across 2 to 3 torso sections. The Banshee can do perfect pinpoint as low as 79 meters).

The 3 AC/5s alone are doing: 75 damage, at 15 damage pinpoint intervals.
The 1 LPL does 21.2 damage in that same time and is on its way to do the third soon. So in 6.32 seconds, the Banshee has done 96.2 damage, with LOTS of it being pinpoint.
15 + 15 + 15 + 15 + 15
10.6 + 10.6 <--can spread some but not much.

The Dire Wolf with "6 UAC/5s", if it were even possible but it's not...
Would be doing a 'firing cycle' every 1.58 seconds as well, but only after the .3 second burst has finished. So here we go.
0.3 seconds: 30 damage. Sounds fantastic, right? 0.6 seconds for a double tap, 60 damage. Sounds amazing?
Lets look in reality.
UAC/5 1: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + JAM!
UAC/5 2: 1.67 + 1.67 JAM!
UAC/5 3: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 JAM!
UAC/5 4: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 JAM!
UAC/5 5: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67
UAC/5 6: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67
Only two finished a successful double tap.
Tally up: 43.33333333333333 damage. Four of those guns are disabled for 3 seconds.
That's the first fire and double fire.
Only the first 0.3 second burst counts against cooldown. So while we had double taps, we only have 0.3 seconds + 1.58 seconds = 1.88 before the UACs can fire again from the very first shot fired.

Second firing.
UAC/5 1: JAMMED
UAC/5 2: JAMMED
UAC/5 3: JAMMED
UAC/5 4: JAMMED
UAC/5 5: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67
UAC/5 6: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 (Got smart, isn't double tapping but holding).
Lets tally. 10 damage.
So in total at 3.76 seconds when the third firing can begin we've managed 53.33333333333333 damage. Heavily spread out I might add just by the fact that you're probably moving. This is assuming the Banshee didn't aim directly for your cockpit, in which case by now you're already dead.

Lets continue.
UAC/5 1: Unjams at 0.45 seconds into this firing. + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67
UAC/5 2: Unjams at 0.15 seconds into this firing. + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67
UAC/5 3: Unjams at 0.6 seconds into this firing. + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67
UAC/5 4: Unjams at 0.3 seconds into this firing. + 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67
UAC/5 5: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67
UAC/5 6: 1.67 + 1.67 + 1.67 (Got smart, isn't double tapping but holding).
Tallying 30 damage.
In total we managed 83.33333333333333.
But, 50 individual shots were fired in this one example, of which only 24 of them could possibly be 'pinpoint' ish at a maximum of 10 damage pinpoint per shot, but given that they are coming from 6 different sources it's more fair to say 5 damage pinpoint (3 to each side, and as the target gets closer they will favor one side or the other instead of being perfect).

Sorry, but those Clan UACs are garbage in comparison. I think it's a good thing, but IS ACs are as B.S. as can be.

rageagainstthedyingofthelight, on 19 September 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Clan Gauss takes less critical slot space, and weighs less while doing the same damage/range. How is that not an advantage?

That doesn't make Clan Gauss Weapons more powerful, have longer range, better firing rate, etc.

They have identical firing rates.

Tell me, if two weapons fire at the same rate, have the same accuracy, and do the same job... does the fact that one is lighter than the other really play into a factor when the user of the heavier one gets to have full range of motion and the lighter one is locked to aim only up and down?

The typical 75 ton Orion has more tangible tonnage to use for weapons, ammo, etc., than a 75 ton Timber Wolf. In fact, a 50 ton Hunchback has more tangible tonnage to use for weapons, ammo, heatsinks, etc. than a 70 ton Summoner.

The Vindicator and Blackjacks (45 tonners) both can hold with the typical engine 3 times more weaponry/ammo/heatsink tonnage than the upcoming Fenris (also 45 tons). It only gets 9 tons to work with.

I can fit 16 tons of weaponry on my Commando and go faster than the Myst Lynx, which can only hold 6 tons. Both are 25 tons.

A weapon being lighter offsets the fact that with the exception of the Dire Wolf, the Clan Omnimechs at MOST can hold 32.5 tons. That's current and upcoming.

Most of the 75 ton or less Clan mechs that we currently have can only hold 25 tons or less in weaponry, heatsinks (not already stuck on), etc. And for most of these mechs, they have to work with 7 to 14 slots fewer than most IS mechs.

Edited by Koniving, 19 September 2014 - 08:34 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

In a proper MMO the IS mechs would be melee while Clan mechs are the ranged glass cannons, except that clan mechs are anything but glass cannons so not only do you have to take some hits while closing to range, but for an IS mech to close to range at reasonable speeds that XL engine is going to leave them worse off once the brawl begins.

[divinedisclaimer]

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

I'm still not convinced PUG matches are the place to do these test.

One match I was placed with 4 Champs and multiple sub sub-optimal mechs. It was an IS vs IS, and it was a stomp, as one would expect. Clans wouldn't have changed that.


I only got 3 IS vs Clan matches this time around, so not enough to use them as an argument either way. IS won twice, Clan once.

"PUG" matches are the only matches worth considering. Either the game is balanced for average players, or it isn't balanced. Games aren't balanced for the extreme minority of players who are very skilled, as it results in a boring game for everyone else.

I think the only thing you need to do to even the playing field is remove or reduce the clan mech's received damage reduction when taking hits on a destroyed side torso. This way that half-wolf really does only have X ct armor across that half of it's chassis and will go down much faster.

Right now I believe all mechs receive half (?) damage through a broken torso to the CT.

[Mcgral18]

divinedisclaimer, on 19 September 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

"PUG" matches are the only matches worth considering. Either the game is balanced for average players, or it isn't balanced. Games aren't balanced for the extreme minority of players who are very skilled, as it results in a boring game for everyone else.

I think the only thing you need to do to even the playing field is remove or reduce the clan mech's received damage reduction when taking hits on a destroyed side torso. This way that half-wolf really does only have X ct armor across that half of it's chassis and will go down much faster.

Right now I believe all mechs receive half (?) damage through a broken torso to the CT.

You can't control PUG matches. There are the rare pilots who throw games, the not so rare noob who doesn't quite know how to play properly. Private testing controls those variables, and there's only the mechs left.

If private match testing shows imbalance, without other variables, then you have an answer. PUGs don't have that.


Damage is halved through broken components. 25% damage from arm to CT, 50% from ST to CT. Halved each component.

[Reno Blade]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

A Dire Wolf with 6 UAC/5s cannot function. Ghost heat is harsh on 4 UAC/5s. 6 UAC/5s is like firing 2 UAC/20s. You don't do it.

I had a 3 LPL, 2 MG, 2 Streak Atlas win against a Dire Wolf with 3 UAC/5s, 1 UAC/10, and 2 LBX-5s, he had support fire hitting me but I didn't have any help on my end. With LPLs you can't manuever because you have to focus those beams.

Those UAC/5s take 0.3 seconds to complete a single burst at 1.666666666666667 damage per shot. The jam can occur at ANY single shot. Fired 4 shots? Jam at 6.666666666666667 damage. Fired 2 shots? Jam at 3.333333333333333 damage. Fired 7 shots? Jam at 11.66666666666667 damage.

The UAC/10 takes 0.48 seconds to complete a single burst at 2.5 damage per shot. A jam can occur anywhere from 2.5 damage and jam to 7.5 damage and jam and so on.

The LBX-5s were the only reliable weapon he had, but they were scatter-shooting.
...
snip
...
Most of the 75 ton or less Clan mechs that we currently have can only hold 25 tons or less in weaponry, heatsinks (not already stuck on), etc. And for most of these mechs, they have to work with 7 to 14 slots fewer than most IS mechs.

Kon, are you speaking from experience from both sides? Fighting in and against such builds?

The heat of these boats seem to not be much of an issue and most builds you see are either 6UAC5 or Gauss+Laser builds on a Dire.

clan LPulse is still 1.2s not 0.7s.

Also there is no jam chance on each bullet of a burst.
You have a chance on each click of the weapon.
If you keep the button down, you will never use double-tap and never jam.

Also hard to believe that franken-build mechs vs any direwolf would win without both of them twisting.
If both pilots can keep their crosshair over one section, both mechs have the same chance, even with longer beam/burst durations for clans.
If you can kill people with your 6 small laser Boarshead, they are just horible opponents.

Edited by Reno Blade, 19 September 2014 - 08:56 AM.

[Riverboat Sam]

I used to work at a gaming company back in the day. We produced such titles as Mortal Kombat. When we did play balance testing we hired kids that were good gamers and paid them to do the testing. We had them play enough matches so that we got actual, statistically viable data (not just a few dozen - think hundreds). We also had the testing gamers play BOTH sides of the matches in equal numbers to try to minimize the differences due to personal skill levels.

This business of opening the PUG queue to random players for a couple hours and calling that testing is pure BS. I mean, if you know the gaming business, it's kind of a bad joke. Whoever told Russ that's how it's done? Is he pulling our legs or something? QA testing of any software has to be done by trained testers in controlled conditions or it's just meaningless.

Edited by Enlil09, 19 September 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[El Bandito]

If you say T-Wolf and Direwhale are not OP, then let me be the first to laugh at you when the next wave of Clan nerfs hit.

[Koniving]

Rouken, on 19 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

I'm not super excited about the prospects of a low cap, high dissipation scheme. I like the twist and shoot style and I suspect that system would lead to more staring matches.

The big stickler is that with canon heat values, IS will always be able to pump out superior damage in a single blow of multiple weapons at once.

For example: Canon heat values. Condition: Must keep an alpha strike below 30 heat.

IS ML: 9 fired. 27 heat. 45 damage. 270 meters. 90% heat.
Clan ER ML: 5 fired. 25 heat. 35 damage. 450 meters. 83.33% heat.

IS LL: 3 fired. 24 heat. 24 damage. 450 meters. 80% heat.
Clan ER LL: 2 fired. 24 heat. 20 damage. 750 meters. 80% heat.

IS PPC: 2 fired. 20 heat. 20 damage. 540 meters. 66.67% heat.
Clan ER PPC: 1 fired. 15 heat. 15 damage. 690 meters. 50% heat.

Almost no need for ghost heat.

[Rushmoar]

I want to smoke what ever Enlil09 is smoking. It sounds like a clanner doesn't want their Clan mechs touched.

First off lights only make up 25% of any arsenal and you seem to be under the impression that lights only fight other lights. Clan lights can tank more and bring more fire power because they have Xl engines.

And second, it's not the job of clan lights to chase IS lights. Clan mediums are as fast or faster (Ice ferret) then the lights. I let them do most of the chasing while I back up the heavy and assault mechs. As for the other 3 classes, Clan tech is ton for ton better then IS right now. Your complaint has no legs to stand on and neither does your Commando.
Cheers all.

Edited by Rushmoar, 19 September 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Mystere]

meteorol, on 19 September 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Guess you missed that part where Clans won 90% of the matches in the first clan vs IS test and 73% in the second (after the laser nerfs)?

Nyden, on 19 September 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

They ran a clan vs. IS test tuesday or wednesday. The all clans teams won 73% of the time, according to Russ. With those numbers it seems fairly clear that clan mechs are still more powerful than IS mechs.

Should the world's air forces use crop duster pilots in determining whether to buy a French Rafale or a Russian SU-27?

[Livewyr]

Let us see what happens when ST destruction penalties are added. (I just hope they do not over-do it like they went on CERLL...)

[Koniving]

Reno Blade, on 19 September 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Kon, are you speaking from experience from both sides? Fighting in and against such builds?

The heat of these boats seem to not be much of an issue and most builds you see are either 6UAC5 or Gauss+Laser builds on a Dire.

I haven't had much luck with 6 UAC/5s. The ghost heat is pretty rough there. Much like 4 UAC/20s. What you have instead are mixed boats of UAC/10, 3 UAC/5s and a few LB or Clan AC/5s to get around ghost heat.

I have 132 mechs. All the Clan mechs so far. Lots of experience in IS mechs, including many of the "worthless" IS ones that are NOT worthless at all but difficult to use.

I play both sides.
When I want easy kills, I go IS.
When I'm tired of the camping LRM fests, I bring out a Timber Wolf and blindly rush enemies (it's amazingly effective because people don't seem to know how to deal with someone that has the balls to brawl).
When I want a challenge, I run some of the lesser-liked Clan mechs. It's harder to play as an Adder than it is to play as a Locust with an AC/5.
If I want to feel invincible, I get a Stalker or a Firestarter or a Stormcrow -- you know, the mechs with HUGE front torsos in comparison to their almost non-existent rear torso. Just slap on 1 rear armor and party.

If I want something that'll butcher Clan mechs, I bring a Jagermech/Atlas/Banshee/Heavy Metal.

If I want general cash flow, I bring a Battlemaster and bog it down with LRMs.

And if I want to look amazing, I bring the Adrenaline.

Slower than dirt. Rapid kills.

[Riverboat Sam]

Rushmoar, on 19 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

I want to smoke what ever Enlil09 is smoking. It sounds like a clanner doesn't want their Clan mechs touched. First off lights only make up 25% of any arsenal and you seem to be under the impression that lights only fight other lights. Clan lights can tank more and bring more fire power because they have Xl engines. And second, it's not the job of clan lights to chase IS lights. Clan mediums are as fast or faster (Ice ferret) then the lights. I let them do most of the chasing while I back up the heavy and assault mechs. As for the other 3 classes, Clan tech is ton for ton better then IS right now. Your complaint has no legs to stand on and neither does your Commando. Cheers all.

I don't smoke buddy. I leave that up to you. Keep talking. Community Warfare will shake the BS out. Can't wait to hear how, "shocked!", you are when that day comes. LOL!