123 replies to this topic

[Naduk]

PPC works just fine
i have no trouble hitting at 400-600m

while it was quite difficult at first it has only taken some practice (as in just use the damn thing)
i now have a pretty easy time of hitting units at 800m too, i rekon im sitting at about 50% hit rate for 800m

i am very much enjoying not being insta killed at 1200m by dual gauss dual ppc combos

[Mothykins]

Naduk, on 19 September 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

PPC works just fine
i have no trouble hitting at 400-600m

while it was quite difficult at first it has only taken some practice (as in just use the damn thing)
i now have a pretty easy time of hitting units at 800m too, i rekon im sitting at about 50% hit rate for 800m

i am very much enjoying not being insta killed at 1200m by dual gauss dual ppc combos

I uh, Never got insta-killed by that combo? Even in a Locust? I think you're exaggerating a little bit.

Yes, I can see the point In wanting to keep the systems all viable, which is something I agree on. What I disagree on is that the IS PPC doesn't have anything akin to the Clans Targeting computer. There's no capability to make it better, and barely anything to make it desirable compared to the Lasers. There's not even range modules for it.

The point is, Gauss and PPCs are supposed to be somewhat fast traveling weapons. The PPC feels super sluggish, especially with hitscan lasers. On top of that, the PPC used to cause temporary electronics glitches in other games when you got pummeled with them (Beyond the ECM scrambling we have now) as part of the trade off for the massive heat.

Right now the IS PPCs just feel like really poor alternatives to the Large Laser or the Large Pulse, weight, range and heat wise, for their damage, range and speed. I don't want to see a full on return to the Gauss/PPC combo, but I want to see it set further apart from the Lasers so there's a good reason to use them. That's all.

[MischiefSC]

Dual-gauss, dual PPC combo is is pinpoint 50pts FLD from the DW and one-shots most lights to a single side torso hit.

People use PPC all the time; when you need a snapfire weapon at manageable tonnage it's the best choice. If you're mixing AC and energy it's still a premier choice; either with Gauss or AC20 it's a flat out killer.

I run a Banshee build with 1xGauss, 3xPPC. One-shot cockpit kills at 400m pretty easily.

The PPC shines in snapshots too in smaller, lighter mechs that need to twist a lot to spread damage. You don't need to stare down like the laser. It's the best precision energy weapon without question.

PPCs are great weapons - people use them all the time. They're just not flat out always superior to all other energy weapons and most ballistics for every single situation like they used to be.

They're an energy AC10. That's the niche they fill and it's a good one.

Edited by MischiefSC, 19 September 2014 - 07:08 PM.

[Sybreed]

the only thing the Gauss charge did was made me stop playing my stock mechs with Gauss.

Ever tried aiming a Gauss shot while shooting Mlasers, SRMs and LRMs at the same time? Yeah, I can understand why targetting computers are a big deal in 3050

Edited by Sybreed, 19 September 2014 - 07:11 PM.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 September 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

As opposed to the click-to-attack RPG that is LRM boating?

Yeah, two can play the embellishment game.

All weapons are click to attack. Make better points next time.

[Lightfoot]

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

I see gauss and PPC every match.

If PPC was sped back up we'd see no more pulse or large lasers - just like before. Also no need for any ballistic save AC5, since you can get a super-accurate, super-long range AC10 with unlimited ammo on any mech without fear of explosions.

PPC is good where it is. So is gauss. They're not absolutely dominant - which they used to be.

Yes, but I never see a Mech with a single Gauss, it's always the 2xGauss Jagermech or Direwolf. So the nerf failed. Should be fixed so that players are allowed to take just one.

PPC is too slow. It allowed MWO to become just easy-mode brawling, no thinking required.

I have been playing MechWarrior for over 15 years online. I assure you I have learned all the mech combat skills from Brawling to LRMs to SSRMs that are much more complex than MWO's. I have no favored weapon other than they all fulfill their specified roles.

Edited by Lightfoot, 19 September 2014 - 07:36 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Naduk, on 19 September 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

PPC works just fine
i have no trouble hitting at 400-600m

while it was quite difficult at first it has only taken some practice (as in just use the damn thing)
i now have a pretty easy time of hitting units at 800m too, i rekon im sitting at about 50% hit rate for 800m

i am very much enjoying not being insta killed at 1200m by dual gauss dual ppc combos

Show us. I have not seen anyone hitting laterally moving targets at much past 400 meters. Most PPC=Yes videos show players closing to 300 meters or less to use them. Just sayin. Except for the rare hit it doesn't happen and the PPC generates hella-heat and has a 4 second recharge all because it is supposed to be accurate at long range.

[MischiefSC]

Lightfoot, on 19 September 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Yes, but I never see a Mech with a single Gauss, it's always the 2xGauss Jagermech or Direwolf. So the nerf failed. Should be fixed so that players are allowed to take just one.

PPC is too slow. It allowed MWO to become just easy-mode brawling, no thinking required.

I have been playing MechWarrior for over 15 years online. I assure you I have mastered all the combat skills from Brawling to LRMs to SSRMs that are much more complex than MWO's. I have no favored weapon other than they all fulfill their specified roles.

I run single gauss often. I have a successful Timber Wolf build I stole the design off of from some of the top players in both competitive and PGI tournament matches that's 3 CERMLs, 1gauss, 1CERPPC. I run a lone Gauss on my Banshee, I do a single gauss + ERLL build with my Cent that works well.

PPCs hit people as often as AC rounds do. That's the fudnamental flaw in this argument. People hit people with AC20s all the time and they are even slower.

There is no 'magic miss all the time' problem for PPCs, they're just not all around superior anymore.

[Ultimax]

Naduk, on 19 September 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

PPC works just fine
i have no trouble hitting at 400-600m

ER PPCs are 810m weapons using the projectile speed of a 450m range weapon.


That's a problem.

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

Dual-gauss, dual PPC combo is is pinpoint 50pts FLD from the DW and one-shots most lights to a single side torso hit.

Not sure if you've noticed in the queues but Dual Gauss + Laser Vomit DWFs can do that with 80 point alphas, removing limbs from all sorts of weight classes and can often one shot mediums if they get a clean angle.

No leading the target needed.


Really, you might want to think about dialing down the PPC rhetoric, the meta is laser heavy.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 September 2014 - 07:40 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Changes I would like is to make Gauss Rifle a double pull (double click), 1 click to charge then next click to fire within that ready period.

ERPPC/PPC - increase speed but not necessarily the at its previous max.

[MischiefSC]

I'm game for a change in projectile speed - just saying it needs to be across the board then. 200 m/s bump to PPCs? Drag up every AC by the same amount. That prevents PPCs from being significantly advantageous to everything else. Of course this makes everything significantly more accurate and dangerous so it's a tradeoff but that's fine.

Buffing the PPC though because 'it's as hard to hit with as ACs are' isn't legit though.

Ultimatum X, on 19 September 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

ER PPCs are 810m weapons using the projectile speed of a 450m range weapon.


That's a problem.






Not sure if you've noticed in the queues but Dual Gauss + Laser Vomit DWFs can do that with 80 point alphas, removing limbs from all sorts of weight classes and can often one shot mediums if they get a clean angle.

No leading the target needed.


Really, you might want to think about dialing down the PPC rhetoric, the meta is laser heavy.

I can spread the damage from all of that save the Gauss. The laservomit is nice though; I use it a lot. If you're set up for one-shot kills and sniping though you need the PPCs.

PPCs are not nearly as dangerous as they were. They're now just as dangerous as ACs are. Take that as you will.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

They are fine. Maybe lower the ppc heat a bit and we're there.

[zortesh]

I can hit things with ppcs at quite a range, and guass sniping still dominates the game, any direwolf with dual guass is easy mode, can basically pack on anything after that and its kickass. I jumped from using a clan narc at 600m-ish ranges, and a narc makes ppcs seem fast, its not hard to hit things with ppcs you just have to adjust your aim to fit.

Sniping still dominates this game, the laser meta was super fun while it lasted but guass came back to rule the field again after those heat nerfs.

Given ppcs are out of fashion, the best direwolf is still dual guass dual ppc, its just so much vastly better then any dakka build its not funny.

Personally lasers and autocannons at 300m ruling the field sounds like the perfect game balance to me, but its definatekly not the game im playing.

[Lightfoot]

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

I run single gauss often. I have a successful Timber Wolf build I stole the design off of from some of the top players in both competitive and PGI tournament matches that's 3 CERMLs, 1gauss, 1CERPPC. I run a lone Gauss on my Banshee, I do a single gauss + ERLL build with my Cent that works well.

PPCs hit people as often as AC rounds do. That's the fudnamental flaw in this argument. People hit people with AC20s all the time and they are even slower.

There is no 'magic miss all the time' problem for PPCs, they're just not all around superior anymore.

OK, this is what is wrong. The PPC is supposed to be a very hot long range accurate weapon and the AC20 is short range accurate at very high damage, and the AC10 is short-mid range accurate at low heat and high damage. That would be balanced if PPCs were fast enough to be accurate at long range.

Now when the PPC is inaccurate at long range in MWO there is no long range weapon that is better than the short range group so no reason to use PPCs anymore, no way to have a long range edge in load-out. It's all just brawling AC teams winning on every map and that's all my matches are now, with unchallenged LRM support for the brawlers. Too repetitious for me. Been there, done that, after just a very few matches and I go play something else.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

All weapons are click to attack. Make better points next time.

No the rest are aim then click to attack

[MischiefSC]

Lightfoot, on 19 September 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

OK, this is what is wrong. The PPC is supposed to be a very hot long range accurate weapon and the AC20 is short range accurate at very high damage, and the AC10 is short-mid range accurate at low heat and high damage. That would be balanced if PPCs were fast enough to be accurate at long range.

Now when the PPC is inaccurate at long range in MWO there is no long range weapon that is better than the short range group so no reason to use PPCs anymore, no way to have a long range edge in load-out. It's all just brawling AC teams winning on every map and that's all my matches are now, with unchallenged LRM support for the brawlers. Too repetitious for me. Been there, done that, after just a very few matches and I go play something else.

So the PPC should be better than the AC10 everywhere except inside 90m?

The PPC has the exact same range as the AC10. It doesn't have ballistic drop.

Are you talking about the ERPPC? Cuz PPCs and AC10s have the same range.

I get that PPCs don't work for you now, you need them to be more accurate than ACs are. That's not a bad thing; some people do well with some weapons, some others.

The fundamental issue here is that what is being asked is that the PPC be all around superior. That's not going to work. You want weapons to be faster so they're more accurate? Sure, let's add 200 m/s to everything across the board.

Otherwise what is being discussed is just buffing the PPC so it's superior to every other weapon in the same performance range. That's not a good balance decision.

Edited by MischiefSC, 19 September 2014 - 08:46 PM.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 September 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

No the rest are aim then click to attack

To say that LRMs require no aiming exposes your ignorance. Unlike other weapons, LRMs require you to not only aim for the enemy mech, but to KEEP the aim on the target all the way for 2-6 seconds. It is actually the hardest weapon to hit with when dumbfired during ECM cockblocks, and even when guided, has LESS % of successful hits compared with ERPPC and Gauss.

My main DF mechs have better WLR than my LRM mechs because hitting with AC5 and LLaser is easy-mode compared to LRMs.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 September 2014 - 08:51 PM.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

PPCs are not nearly as dangerous as they were. They're now just as dangerous as ACs are. Take that as you will.

ACs don't hit a heat wall in brawl range.

ACs, across the board, have higher DPS - with the AC 10 having 60% more maximum DPS and the AC 20 having 100% more maximum.

Factor in the heat of the PPC, and ACs outclass it by quite a lot in sustained DPS.

No AC has a minimum range.


These things are all OK, ACs pay a lot of weight to do all of that - on the other hand PPCs pay a lot of heat and have lower DPS, there's no reason they should have a projectile speed that restricts their practical use beyond 500-600m, especially the ERs since they were designed for those ranges.


I like ACs too, and I'd be happy to see projectile speeds improved - but your comparisons to ACs are not really accurate.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 19 September 2014 - 09:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimatum X, on 19 September 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

ACs don't hit a heat wall in brawl range.

ACs, across the board, have higher DPS - with the AC 10 having 60% more DPS and the AC 20 having 100% more.

Factor in the heat of the PPC, and ACs outclass it by quite a lot in DPS.

No AC has a minimum range.


These things are all OK, ACs pay a lot of weight to do all of that - on the other hand PPCs pay a lot of heat and have lower DPS, there's no reason they should have a projectile speed that restricts their practical use beyond 500-600m, especially the ERs since they were designed for those ranges.


I like ACs too, and I'd be happy to see projectile speeds improved - but your comparisons to ACs are flawed.

Energy to ACs is entirely about DPS + low heat in return for high weight, explosive ammo, ammo dependency, taking a ton of internal spaces.

Damage is damage. PPFLD is PPFLD. PPCs also disrupt ECM, for what it's worth.

Damage/speed (accuracy) is the critical balancing factor. All energy weapons have less DPS and higher heat; they don't have ammo.

The PPC/AC10 balance factor though isn't unreasonable. If the PPC does 10 pts damage with great accuracy at 500+m but without chargeup and the Gauss tonnage and explosive tendency then it's the best PPFLD weapon in the game. That simple. AC10 has ballistic drop; it's only accurate to at best 400m. It's also 12 tons plus ammo. That is akin to a PPC plus 5 DHS - enough to keep a single PPC running pretty cool. Add in just 2 tons of ammo and that's 7 DHS for 1 PPC. No logical reason to take the AC10 at that point is there? Even the Gauss looks bad at that point.

Which is where we were. We know what a fast PPC looks like in game performance - it dominates the battlefield and is pretty much a given on every mech from Spiders to Atlas packs them.

There isn't a lot of middle ground here. Either a PPC is more accurate than every other PPFLD in the same range or it's not. If it isn't, then there's a reasonable decision to be made when picking weapons. If it is more accurate than there's few good reasons to take anything else.

We've already done this, already seen it. PPCs are in a good place now.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

To say that LRMs require no aiming exposes your ignorance. Unlike other weapons, LRMs require you to not only aim for the enemy mech, but to KEEP the aim on the target all the way for 2-6 seconds. It is actually the hardest weapon to hit with when dumbfired during ECM cockblocks, and even when guided, has LESS % of successful hits compared with ERPPC and Gauss.

My main DF mechs have better WLR than my LRM mechs because hitting with AC5 and LLaser is easy-mode compared to LRMs.

I have used LRMs before, so I am not ignorant to how they use them. Using LRMs is more like an RPG then using PPCs and Gauss Rifles is like Counter Strike. I was just pointing out that your comment about CS was an exaggeration but you missed that point.

Its not easy mode, its simply because LRMs are only good in certain situations. Something less effective doesn't mean it is harder to use, it just means if you get pushed you are going to get rocked. And if your opponents are staying in cover then you don't get any hits.. basically LRMs are only as effective as the enemy team is bad/uncoordinated.