123 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

Damage/speed (accuracy) is the critical balancing factor. All energy weapons have less DPS and higher heat; they don't have ammo.

DPS vs. Speed ratio is off, if you want to stick to that comparison then.

DPS is a real factor and should be factored into the speed of the weapon.

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

The PPC/AC10 balance factor though isn't unreasonable. If the PPC does 10 pts damage with great accuracy at 500+m but without chargeup

Yet it takes nearly 2 PPCs at 20 to 30 heat per volley to rival the DPS one one AC 10.

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

and the Gauss tonnage and explosive tendency then it's the best PPFLD weapon in the game. That simple.

If that were true you would see people just run builds of only PPCs. Most people do not.

This is because you will hit the heat wall even faster, the more PPCs you have.

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

That is akin to a PPC plus 5 DHS - enough to keep a single PPC running pretty cool.

Are we talking standard PPC that has min 90m range, slower projectile speed than AC 10 and 540m optimal range vs. AC 10 or are we talking the hotter ER PPC?

Yes 1 PPC with 5 heatsinks runs cool, it also has flaws like 90m min range you also need to build around.

These are incidental build costs.

The ER PPC with 5 DHS is still running cool, but now what? Do you add more energy weapons and therefore heat drain to your build?

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

We've already done this, already seen it. PPCs are in a good place now.

If you mean by "good place" that most players aren't using them in favor of hitscan lower heat weapons that don't have minimum ranges or ballistics then "yeah".


This is the same conversation as burst fire ballistics, I was told repeatedly by other players they thought burst fire ACs would still be good - now we have them and they are clearly crap unless you can mass boat them.


PPCs aren't reliable enough anymore to justify the heat, and weight of the weapon on many builds - this is why the meta has shifted to lasers.

We aren't seeing "variety" we are seeing a full meta shift to something else.

That is exactly what happens when a weapon gets over nerfed, the meta shifts.

[MischiefSC]

People used to run PPC only builds all the time, maybe a couple backup lasers. That or if they had the tonnage ACs + PPCs. That's all anyone took.

If DPS was king then everyone would be rocking that Clan UAC20 or even just AC10s and 20s, right?

Which they are not.

Simple question here though -

Which do you see more of. AC10s or PPCs?

The laser meta is picking up because of Clans, people are getting used to them. They never had to with high-speed PPCs. Currently with all the inflated energy hardpoints boating lasers can be a good, solid choice. You'll still see plenty of PPCs and PPFLD builds though unless it's a Timber Wolf.

Edited by MischiefSC, 19 September 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[zortesh]

MischiefSC has a point.

most clan mechs aside from direwolf can't get a good ppfld weapon loadout, so they use lasers, which being clan lasers have enough range to be effective.


Sure ppcs are slow but there still useable, and still have the massive advantage of being ppfld weapons which are mechanically superior by the fact that you can't torso twist after the hit has begun.

We still see alot of 2ppc 2guass direwolves so they can't be too bad.

[kapusta11]

The time it takes for PPC projectile to hit it's target is way of, PGI please unnerf.


SRMs suck as well.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 September 2014 - 11:35 PM.

[MischiefSC]

kapusta11, on 19 September 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

The time it takes for PPC projectile to hit it's target is way of, PGI please unnerf.


SRMs suck as well.

Huh. So by the look of that the PPC can hit a target at 810 m in the same amount of time it takes SRMs to hit a target at 270m.

I guess nobody can/should use SRMs, since it's impossible to hit anything?

Actually what that shows is that PPCs are now pretty well in sync for their weapon ranges/travel time to hit target with most other weapons. ERPPCs could stand another 100 m/s boost.

Regular PPCs though? Pretty much exactly where they ned to be. AC10s are a hairs breath faster but have projectile drop, shifting their aim at any range where the speed would be a benefit.

[zortesh]

Weird how noone complains about ac10 speed, I guess noone uses them in then first place?

[Elizander]

fallenhawk1, on 19 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

This is my second post to the forum since I joined the game a long time ago. I have to agree about restoring the Guass Rifle to its former glory. I understand it can be easily abused by mechs carrying 2 or more. So a simple compromise would be removing the charging requirement if the mech only has one Guass Rifle. Now the weapon could be useful once again to the med. mechs. Just a thought.

The charge mechanic is a minimal inconvenience. I personally believe that the Gauss Rifle is still very powerful. Aiming it with a small delay to charge is a negligible penalty. Once you practice enough with it you'll just go "lol this is supposed to be a penalty to balance this weapon?"

I also personally find it more fun with the delay. I wouldn't mind something similar on the PPC/ER PPC if they can speed up the projectile on it.

kapusta11, on 19 September 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

The time it takes for PPC projectile to hit it's target is way of, PGI please unnerf.


SRMs suck as well.

SRMs are kind of okay because the closer your target is the bigger they are. That is the major difference with fighting something further out. There really is no issue under 500m for almost any weapon, at least for me. I just want my ER PPC to reach its max range at a reasonable time.

And please don't slow down the Gauss Rifle because people are asking to remove the charge time. I like having the cookie jar on top of the shelf out of the reach of the kids who don't want to bother practicing with the delay time.

Edited by Elizander, 20 September 2014 - 12:21 AM.

[kapusta11]

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

Huh. So by the look of that the PPC can hit a target at 810 m in the same amount of time it takes SRMs to hit a target at 270m.

I guess nobody can/should use SRMs, since it's impossible to hit anything?

Actually what that shows is that PPCs are now pretty well in sync for their weapon ranges/travel time to hit target with most other weapons. ERPPCs could stand another 100 m/s boost.

Regular PPCs though? Pretty much exactly where they ned to be. AC10s are a hairs breath faster but have projectile drop, shifting their aim at any range where the speed would be a benefit.

Show me how you consistently hit something that moves at 250-270 range with SRMs, most fights take place at 120-90m ranges, you clearly have no Idea what you're talking about. "Well sync" for all weapons is 0.4 - 0.5 sec and PPCs are dead now as a long range weapon.

[jaxjace]

I think the PPC needs a speed buff. I agree. But maybe thats because i cant hit anything with autocannons or PPCs. as both use a projectile moving. great with gauss, lbx and lasers though!

[zortesh]

kapusta11, on 20 September 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Show me how you consistently hit something that moves at 250-270 range with SRMs, most fights take place at 120-90m ranges, you clearly have no Idea what you're talking about. "Well sync" for all weapons is 0.4 - 0.5 sec and PPCs are dead now as a long range weapon.

Most mechs I target with srms are at 200m+ range, if I'm closer I'm probably in the middle of a enemy blob and screwed, its fairly easy to get em actually, great for tripping up lights.

[Quxudica]

Lightfoot, on 19 September 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

It's been hard for me to bring myself to play MWO the past 3-4 weeks and I had just activated all my carefully banked premium time from the past two years. But that was for the game MWO was 4 weeks ago. If I had waited a week more the PPC speed nerf would have hit and I would still be waiting. But that's not why I am posting this.

What I don't like about the current gameplay is that it is stagnant and repetitious and is only about AC's and Lasers at 300 meters. Nothing stops this load-out from crossing any map and of course once in range it dominates completely as it was designed to by Battle-Tech balancing. And that's wrong. Not that heavy AC's and lasers dominate close range combat, but that they also dominate long range combat since it no longer exists in MWO.

The PPC is just too slow at 850 MPS to hit past 400 meters on moving targets.

The Gauss Rifle is not a sniper rifle. It is too weak at 15 damage for 15 tons to support a difficult de-sync charge-up mechanic and the proof of this is that players will almost always take 2xGauss or none at all. Well that is not how Battle Tech describes the function or use of the Gauss Rifle and it relegates the Gauss Rifle to the Dire Wolf, Cataphract, Jagermech and K2 only, instead of a weapon that is very common on any ballistic capable mech. Now if PGI wants to add an apocryphal mech sniper rifle at 15 tons and say 24 damage, be my guest, but the Gauss Rifle at just 15 damage for 15 tons is balanced to be a long range accurate ballistic that fires normally! A 6 second recharge like an SSRM6 is all that is needed to force it into long range specialization.

You might not like long range tactical gameplay, but MechWarrior requires it for gameplay depth and tactical development. Without long range as a working option MechWarrior becomes the same arcade match repeated over and over and does not grow the kind of player experiences that bring players back to try something new. Maybe some new tactic they planned on their own or maybe with a team.

Eventually, you learn to pull the trigger as well as you ever will and the game dies. Or you are faced with new tactical challenges each day by each map and you get a true MechWarrior game that grows your imagination and experiences.

I ran 1xGauss and 2xERLL on my 2D2 for a long while after comming back and had no problems, my mech was at 2.0+ ratio. I've since turned it into a srm/lbx platform but I don't agree that increasing the gauss damage is the solution. Pinpoint/spike Damage is already too high and TTK to low.

[Stone Wall]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Improvise, adapt, overcome.


Oh Rah!

This is how we did it with online play of MechWarrior 3. We had to lag shoot back then, but small mechs would own gauss/er pcc unless the pilot had godly aim.

Anyone who has played other MechWarrior games online can easily adapt to a few snipers.

Maybe the real issue is restricting how many of each weapon load out people can take. Example: if you have a team of 8 gauss users(the way the weapon worked in other MW games) and your other 8 members are scouts, brawlers, then that team is overkill. I played a competitive league in MechWarrior 4 Mercs where tonnage and weapons were rationed. Maybe PGI could add a mode where you can restrict these things? Because otherwise MechWarrior, from my 16 years of online experience, will just be the same type of fights over and over. What type of fights? Well whatever build gets the most kills with the least amount of work of course.

[Lightfoot]

zortesh, on 19 September 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Weird how noone complains about ac10 speed, I guess noone uses them in then first place?

I use AC10's, they have synchronous travel times with ERPPCs now. 2xAC10 plus 1 ERPPC legs a Light in one shot, every time too. It's automatic if they hit.

AC10's have slower travel times than what PPCs are supposed to have because they are cool and recycle in 2.5 seconds. PPCs are very hot for energy weapons and recycle in 4 seconds until they overheat your mech, then you are probably waiting on a recycle of 6-8 seconds with 15-16 DHS. That's why PPCs are weighted to be used at long range accurately and not share the travel time of a short to mid-range AC10.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 19 September 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

Huh. So by the look of that the PPC can hit a target at 810 m in the same amount of time it takes SRMs to hit a target at 270m.

I guess nobody can/should use SRMs, since it's impossible to hit anything?

Not really, this is why:

Elizander, on 20 September 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:

SRMs are kind of okay because the closer your target is the bigger they are. That is the major difference with fighting something further out.

SRMs also have more than twice the damage per ton, lower heat per damage dealt, and ton for ton will have about 2.5x the DPS.

Those things are all fine, SRMs are in a good place right now - but maybe you want to find a different point to cherry pick?


PPC has a range beyond AC 10, and yet has a slower projectile.

ER PPC has a range beyond AC5s and has a projectile speed of the AC 10 meant to be used at 450m.


Almost double the range, same projectile speed.

[Lightfoot]

Stone Wall, on 20 September 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

This is how we did it with online play of MechWarrior 3. We had to lag shoot back then, but small mechs would own gauss/er pcc unless the pilot had godly aim.

Anyone who has played other MechWarrior games online can easily adapt to a few snipers.

Maybe the real issue is restricting how many of each weapon load out people can take. Example: if you have a team of 8 gauss users(the way the weapon worked in other MW games) and your other 8 members are scouts, brawlers, then that team is overkill. I played a competitive league in MechWarrior 4 Mercs where tonnage and weapons were rationed. Maybe PGI could add a mode where you can restrict these things? Because otherwise MechWarrior, from my 16 years of online experience, will just be the same type of fights over and over. What type of fights? Well whatever build gets the most kills with the least amount of work of course.

You are exactly right. That is why there needs to be a balance of all the weapons that is controlled by the map terrain and not what players find most convenient, or prefer, or is best. I have no preferred weapon. I am ready to go with AC20's or actual working Battle Tech Gauss Rifles if that is what the map terrain supports best.

I think MWO should try to get tonnage balanced drops, but this seems to be a problem so I don't think they can balance by loadout. Tonnage balance is probably fairer to all since it pits the players against Battle Tech's core balancing.

The problem with the current brawling only balancing is it gets very repetitious and few Battletech mechs fit the brawler role. The advantage of a multi-range game is, everything works and works better or worse based on terrain. Almost every mech competes instead of just ballistic boats and players buy more mechs to compete over a wide variety of terrains. Loadouts become much more diverse and battles become unpredictable. That is the true skill game that MechWarrior offers. By comparison the current Brawl-Warrior is an arcade game for casual players.

BooYah!

[MischiefSC]

kapusta11, on 20 September 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

Show me how you consistently hit something that moves at 250-270 range with SRMs, most fights take place at 120-90m ranges, you clearly have no Idea what you're talking about. "Well sync" for all weapons is 0.4 - 0.5 sec and PPCs are dead now as a long range weapon.

Actually 200-250m is the sweet spot for srms; they'll hit the same spot on the target with some good aim. If most your fights take place as 120-90m then you and I are playing a very, very different game. Most matches I play the last 3 or 4 kills of the match take place that close as the winners finish the roll on the losers and it's more of a scrabble to get the final kills than anything else.

PPCs are rock solid at the range they are designed for. 90-450m. The idea that PPCs were supposed to still be accurate beyond their effective range is part of what made them an issue. You want to see people using PPCs well? Go watch any of a dozen streamers. Go watch some of Heimdelights videos, you'll see him using gauss and PPCs at their max range and accurately killing mechs well beyond 400m. While an extreme example that's going to be the easiest for you.

Ultimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Not really, this is why:





SRMs also have more than twice the damage per ton, lower heat per damage dealt, and ton for ton will have about 2.5x the DPS.

Those things are all fine, SRMs are in a good place right now - but maybe you want to find a different point to cherry pick?


PPC has a range beyond AC 10, and yet has a slower projectile.

ER PPC has a range beyond AC5s and has a projectile speed of the AC 10 meant to be used at 450m.


Almost double the range, same projectile speed.

I referenced SRMs because a couple of people prior were trying to imply that PPCs were absolutely dead, impossible to use and nobody was using them, while SRMs get used constantly at their max range. I get the other aspects of SRMs that add a lot of value; in fact as I pointed out above SRMs are best at longer ranges. Point blank you get a crap ton of spread, at ~200m you can leg a light more easily because more missiles will hit the leg you're aiming at.

As I said, I'm good with ERPPCs getting an extra 100m/s, that should put them better in scope with their range. AC10s are faster than PPCs because they have ballistic drop, making them otherwise less accurate at range than PPCs. Give PPC shots ballistic drop and speed them up to 950m/s. That's fine.

You see PPCs every single match. They get used, they do a lot of killing. This idea that because they're not the easiest weapon to kill with at every range in the game is disingenuous. They used to be, now they're not. They're in scale with every other PPFLD weapon. Want better accuracy? Use a laser. Want PPFLD? Use ACs/PPCs, but lose a little accuracy - especially at range. Want high accuracy/long range? Use the more difficult to master gauss or use an ERLL.

Want a weapon that's pinpoint accurate from point blank to 800m?

NO.

Want a PPFLD weapon that's pinpoint accurate and easy to use from 90m to ~600m (faster PPC)?

NO.

These concepts destroyed weapon balance. We've got a surprisingly varied spread of weapons. ACs, SRMs, LRMs, small medium and large lasers of pulse, regular and ER variety, PPCs, ERPPCs. You'll likely get shot at by just about every one of those weapons in most matches now and they're all close to equally dangerous (except pulse. For some reason pulse always have to be terrible) and that's a good thing.

PPCs get used all the time and used effectively. You can watch videos of people using them effectively all the time. I get the LT blown off my Banshee all the time, leaving me with 3 PPCs which I shoot people with all the time. The CERPPC armed Kit Fox is one of the most common and effective. Dires and Warhawks boat them all the time. You see dual PPC Shawks regularly, you see Phracts and Battlemasters with PPC builds, etc. etc. etc.

Saying 'I don't do well with PPCs now and so I don't use them often' is different from 'nobody can use PPCs now'. We had the same debate with gauss. People use gauss all the time, everyone in this discussion has been killed by PPCs and gauss if they've played recently I would guarantee it. It's a disingenuous position from which to try and argue.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Gauss is not "fine". Gauss has just been made inoffensive to the people who hated the extra issues it brought to this modified version of Battletech combat. It just means that all the people tired of poptarts and the abused game mechanics are relieved to not not have to worry about the Gauss anymore. Not that the Gauss is fine, or fixed, or working well. Just that they don't care and now they don't even have to care anymore. Gauss can be relegated to the dustbin of history for all they care.

That is not "fixed". Gauss does need to be changed. How can be discussed, but the way it is now, no one can say that it's optimal and expect to be taken seriously.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

PPCs are rock solid at the range they are designed for. 90-450m.

PPC goes out to 540. I see no reason it shouldn't be very effective at that range.

MischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

The idea that PPCs were supposed to still be accurate beyond their effective range is part of what made them an issue. You want to see people using PPCs well?

Go watch any of a dozen streamers. Go watch some of Heimdelights videos

We can't all be Heimdelight.

If you have to be one of the tippity top best players in the game to use a weapon consistently & accurately, there is probably something wrong with that weapon's design.

MischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

As I said, I'm good with ERPPCs getting an extra 100m/s, that should put them better in scope with their range. AC10s are faster than PPCs because they have ballistic drop, making them otherwise less accurate at range than PPCs.

Here's what I'd rather have:


Restore PPC & ER PPC to their prior speeds.

Past their optimal ranges they incur exponential drop off.

Now they excel at the ranges they were designed for and continue to compete vs. their hitscan, lower heat laser competitors in the energy weapon category, but they do not continue to be a threat beyond their optimal ranges.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 September 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

PPC goes out to 540. I see no reason it shouldn't be very effective at that range.





We can't all be Heimdelight.

If you have to be one of the tippity top best players in the game to use a weapon consistently & accurately, there is probably something wrong with that weapon's design.







Here's what I'd rather have:


Restore PPC & ER PPC to their prior speeds.

Past their optimal ranges they incur exponential drop off.

Now they excel at the ranges they were designed for and continue to compete vs. their hitscan, lower heat laser competitors in the energy weapon category, but they do not continue to be a threat beyond their optimal ranges.

I'm all for the speed increase - so long as it's across the board. Give all ACs, from AC2 to AC20, the same instant pinpoint accurate speed and then dropoff. Of course this eliminates any need for lasers and makes the game more of a sniper fest than it was in PPC+Gauss days but that's what a couple of people want, right?

You want pinpoint accuracy? Make PPCs DoT then, have them work like a 10pt laser with a 1 second burn time.

PPFLD with high speed projectiles is unbalanced. We've seen that. It's not new. It should never come back.

[Fire and Salt]

MischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

Actually 200-250m is the sweet spot for srms; they'll hit the same spot on the target with some good aim.

Totally disagree with this. SRMs are best at point blank. 50-100 meters. They will hit the same spot, but it DOESNT require good aim.



The ppc projectile speed Nerf did desync it from the gauss, and that was the goal... But it also made PPCs worse when not paired with gauss.

I bet they are 10-15% less accurate now.

They need to reduce the heat by 10-15% accordingly. This way you can still do some DPS even after accounting for all the missed shots. Damage will still be more spread out, but at least you will be able to keep up with the pre-nerf DPS.