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Restore The Gauss Rifle And The Ppc And Make Mwo A Mech-Sim.

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#81 KraftySOT

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:10 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

If PPC and Gauss are restored, this game will become the mech version of Counter-Strike.



BS...even counter strike has weapons that arent this accurate.

Fix the pin point damage, restore the PPC and Gauss.

#82 Ultimax

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:10 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:


I'm all for the speed increase - so long as it's across the board. Give all ACs, from AC2 to AC20, the same instant pinpoint accurate speed and then dropoff. Of course this eliminates any need for lasers and makes the game more of a sniper fest than it was in PPC+Gauss days but that's what a couple of people want, right?


You do understand that AC 2s are already 2000m/s correct?

Are you unable to argue this without resorting to logical fallacies?

Have I asked for all pinpoint weapons to eliminate lasers?


View PostMischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

You want pinpoint accuracy? Make PPCs DoT then, have them work like a 10pt laser with a 1 second burn time.


OK, you've stopped making sense and have resorted to absurd premises.

Why would anyone use a 10 damage, 10 heat, 7 ton laser with a 540m range?

They would never use it, because it would be clearly inferior to nearly every other laser option - stats-wise the PPC is a totally inferior weapon the only thing it ever had going for it was that it was front loaded.

This is why a speed drop resulting in accuracy and therefore effective damage drop has seen people shift to lasers.

If you are unable to argue this honestly, without letting your personal bias against front loaded weapons shine through then I think we need to end the conversation here or it will just degenerate.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 September 2014 - 12:12 PM.


#83 Voivode

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:15 PM

Drop the charge up for Gauss and the ghost heat for PPC. Then bump the cooldown on Gauss to 8 seconds and the PPC to 6 seconds, bump PPC / ERPPC heat generation to 12 / 17 respectively.

#84 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:34 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:


You do understand that AC 2s are already 2000m/s correct?

Are you unable to argue this without resorting to logical fallacies?

Have I asked for all pinpoint weapons to eliminate lasers?




OK, you've stopped making sense and have resorted to absurd premises.

Why would anyone use a 10 damage, 10 heat, 7 ton laser with a 540m range?

They would never use it, because it would be clearly inferior to nearly every other laser option.

If you are unable to argue this honestly, without letting your personal bias against front loaded weapons shine through then I think we need to end the conversation here or it will just degenerate.


Argue honestly? There is no honestly to this argument to begin with. The first thread o this, months ago, went through all the honest arguments. The most honest argument has already been put forward: 'which do you see more of still, PPCs or AC10s?'

That never got a response because the response is obvious.

How about this:

'You used to see more PPCs than any other weapon and they were called 'the meta' for the last year. Do you still see almost all PPCs on the field? Are the more or less proportional to other weapons now?'

No response to that one either.

PPCs got their speed buff originally because hitreg issues made them pointless otherwise. They got a heat reduction too. Hitreg got fixed, they were god-tier. So heat got rolled back. Ghost heat implemented. PPCs were still the most dominant weapon in the game because they were PPFLD and near instant hit out to 1km. You could accurately hit people at ranges where the weapon was doing at best 1pt of damage. No other weapon save lasers did this.

So after all the other failed attempts to reign in PPCs they were made comparable with every other PPFLD weapon in the game.

I get how you're trying to dance around exactly what you're asking for -

And let's be perfectly clear here about that. What you're asking for is to, for example, be able to take 2 PPCs and be able to hit with pinpoint accuracy for 20pts a single location on mechs at 540m or further. So like an AC20 with double the range, higher heat and 4 or 5 times the accuracy.

How about this argument?

'We had that for 18 months and almost everyone hated it, because it was just the same thing every game no need for weapon variety since if you were not taking a PPC you were gimping yourself'.

I get how you want to try and corner the debate into things like heat vs DPS or singular metric analysis to make it look like something it isn't. I've already tried every single logical argument on this topic and they were wasted electrons. PPCs are a PPFLD weapon, just like ACs. They need balanced with/against ACs for that very reason. You don't want them balanced against ACs? Make them DoT like other energy weapons and balance them there. You want to buff PPFLD accuracy? Do it across the board. AC2s got a number of nerfs already and are quite fast and accurate but otherwise pretty worthless. AC5s are useful but not disproportionately so. AC10s are still in a bad space because they are 2 tons lighter than an AC20 but 1/2 the tonnage. You're better off with a PPC, fraction the tonnage, better range, no ammo. The real fix for AC10s is LB10X getting the ability to swap ammo types.

The very basis of the argument you are making, which is 'PPCs should be more accurate' is inherently dishonest because it's asking to make 1 weapon dominant - again. It's not even a new idea; we tried it for 18 months.

Currently it's in balance with other PPFLD weapons and while useful it's not overwhelmingly so. It's PPFLD, so it suffers for accuracy. The one exception is the gauss which has brutal weight, explodes and chargeup to offset its combo of high speed, damage and range.

Of course we all know this though. It's not new ground; none of it is. We've got two groups here arguing opinions. One opinion is 'I want PPCs to be the best PPFLD weapon again, like they used to be. Maybe not quite so OP but certainly better than they are now' and the other group going 'It is an actual decision now on taking weapons or building a loadout that isn't either "Take PPCs for optimal performance" or "play at a disadvantage".'

If you want to make all PPFLD weapons more accurate then do it. Let me shoot my AC20 at 900 m/s out to 270m then give it a speed drop-off. Remove that ballistic drop that makes them less accurate at range beyond their optimal. Make an AC10 as fast and accurate as a PPC at long ranges and you'll see them more often. Then the gauss charge up won't be an issue because nobody will really need to take them. Bump AC5s accordingly to 1500 or so. Make them all brutally accurate to their max range and then fall off and get rid of ballistic drop.

That's not what you're asking for though. You just want this one specific weapon to be flat out superior to every other PPFLD weapon and say that it's balanced by high heat. We already know that doesn't work; it just promotes peek-shoot-wait gameplay because if I can put 20-30 pts on a single location at 500m, then lean out and do it 2 more times while you're trying to safely get to point blank then you're going to have no armor when you close with me.

This debate was never honest. It was always a request for a weapon system that is finally in balance to be unbalanced again. All the clear, concise and reasonable points as to why this is a good thing were made months ago. Every point that comes up like 'AC10 vs PPC, which do you see more often' or just how representative the PPC is on the field now gets ignored.

I carry PPFLD weapons on almost every IS mech I play. I even run it on some clan builds. I like having a reason to play something other than PPCs every match. I have a bias; it's the product of having played fast PPCs for almost 2 years. I already know what they play like and that crappy experience is why PPCs finally got put back into line.

#85 Fire and Salt

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:55 PM

Gauss charge mechanic needs to stay, if only because it adds some variety to the game.

#86 Ultimax

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:03 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

'which do you see more of still, PPCs or AC10s?'


The question is flawed.
  • For 12 tons you can get an AC 10.
  • For 14 tons you can get an AC 20.
  • For 15 tons you can get a Gauss.


Most people at that weight range, go for the 20 or the Gauss.

Mechs with more available tonnage go for AC/UAC 5s for the higher DPS, better range, better projectile speed.

Mechs with a lot of tonnage grab the PPC to combine with some of those other "not AC 10" ballistics.

Mechs with low tonnage can only barely slot ballistics, and they are generally not worth it - so here, they take the PPC.



If the AC 10 was the only ballistic weapon that existed, we could try that question again.

Or maybe you'd like to try "Do we see more PPCs or more of Ballistic weapons?".


Try a fair question, you might get a fair answer.





View PostMischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

'You used to see more PPCs than any other weapon and they were called 'the meta' for the last year. Do you still see almost all PPCs on the field? Are the more or less proportional to other weapons now?'

No response to that one either.



They are much less proportional now.

If you are going long range, there are better options.

If you are going short range there are better options.

Some of the long range options are also good at mid-range and either directly compete or are even superior.


Here are the two major reasons to use PPCs at this point:

1) Your mech can combine them with AC 10(s) or 20.
2) Your mech only has tonnage enough for 1 large weapon.

#87 Fire and Salt

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:03 PM

Also, ac10 vs ppc popularity is a BS argument.

There are a bunch of choices for ballistics.

PPC is the only choice for energy weapons, the rest are all hitscan lasers.


Is the PPC more popular than AC5s, UAC5s, AC10s, AC20s and gauss, all combined?


Or, put another way - if we got a snub nose PPC, would that take over some of the regular ppcs share? Certainly.

Would it make the regular PPC a worse weapon?

Certainly not.





If there was an AC9 and an AC11, would you suddenly ask for an AC10 buff, because there are suddenly less AC10s in use?

#88 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:50 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:


The question is flawed.
  • For 12 tons you can get an AC 10.
  • For 14 tons you can get an AC 20.
  • For 15 tons you can get a Gauss.
Most people at that weight range, go for the 20 or the Gauss.

Mechs with more available tonnage go for AC/UAC 5s for the higher DPS, better range, better projectile speed.

Mechs with a lot of tonnage grab the PPC to combine with some of those other "not AC 10" ballistics.

Mechs with low tonnage can only barely slot ballistics, and they are generally not worth it - so here, they take the PPC.



If the AC 10 was the only ballistic weapon that existed, we could try that question again.

Or maybe you'd like to try "Do we see more PPCs or more of Ballistic weapons?".


Try a fair question, you might get a fair answer.








They are much less proportional now.

If you are going long range, there are better options.

If you are going short range there are better options.

Some of the long range options are also good at mid-range and either directly compete or are even superior.


Here are the two major reasons to use PPCs at this point:

1) Your mech can combine them with AC 10(s) or 20.
2) Your mech only has tonnage enough for 1 large weapon.


So part of the problem here is trying to lump PPCs in with lasers - it's not. It's a ballistic weapon with an energy payload, so it goes directly in the same pile of weapon choices as all other ACs.

So for ballistic weapons you get

AC2 6 tons
PPC 7 tons
AC5 8 tons
UAC5 9 tons
AC10 12 tons
AC20 14 tons
Gauss 15 tons

The PPC, UAC5 and Gauss all fill niche rolls as ballistic weapons. Tonnage wise though that's the ballistic lineup.

The PPC is only an energy weapon by the hardpoint it uses - it is not an energy weapon by its performance. It trades heat/low refire for low tonnage, low crit spaces and lack of ammo requirements, it also gets a minimum range to prevent it being the perfect all around weapon.

It shoots a 10pt ballistic projectile with no ballistic drop and it does it to 540m.

If you want a PPFLD weapon in the 250-450m range, that's your choice. You want longer range? Sure, better options. Want a brawling weapon? Better options.

So it's balanced. It's certainly viable from 90-250m but in that range you might have better choices. Longer range? You have a couple of better choices.

You're saying you want it to be ideal from 90-540m and still very dangerous beyond that. You don't want the same for any other ballistics. Trying to selectively pick out metrics that say 'no no, AC2s/ac5s are dangerous for their whole range' while ignoring that they spread damage, an AC2 requiring staredown for over 2.5 seconds to do 10pts, which won't all be on one location and an AC5 requiring two consecutive shots for the same. Are 2xAC5s better than a PPC? Sure - for 16 tons plus 4 tons ammo they had better be.

The PPC fits a specific role in the ballistic line up. You want it to fit a role in the energy lineup? Then it needs mechanics changed to work like an energy weapon, DoT. What you're saying is you want it to have the best aspects of ballistics and energy weapons. High accuracy at range, PPFLD.

Which, again. As we've seen for the last 18 months, is OP and bad.

#89 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:54 PM

Oh, as to the fair question fair answer bit, how about this?

'Among ballistics, which do you see the most of? AC2, AC5, UAC5, PPC, AC10, AC20, Gauss?'

You'd get an even spread of answers these days between PPC, Gauss and AC5. Those three are the most common ballistics. Before you'd have heard 'PPC, absolutely, followed by AC5'.

Now we've got a more balanced environment. AC2 was always niche but could probably use some work. AC20, niche but useful. AC10... like I said. LB10X with slug and shot ammo options will change that.

PPC is one of the most common ballistics in play.

#90 Ultimax

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 04:03 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:


So part of the problem here is trying to lump PPCs in with lasers - it's not. It's a ballistic weapon with an energy payload, so it goes directly in the same pile of weapon choices as all other ACs.

The PPC is only an energy weapon by the hardpoint it uses - it is not an energy weapon by its performance.



It does not go into the choices for Ballistics because it is unique.

Ballistics have higher DPS, and lower heat.


It's a projectile energy weapon, let's not make it something it's not.

#91 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 06:26 PM

Ballistic is exactly what it is. It shoots a projectile. It does ppfld and needs balanced against he other ppfld weapons.

Which it is, now. It was not prior and that's why the bad ppc meta existed.

#92 Ultimax

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 06:44 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

Ballistic is exactly what it is. It shoots a projectile. It does ppfld and needs balanced against he other ppfld weapons.


Then I'll just keep repeating that is balanced by having lower DPS than every single Autocannon: the AC 2, AC 5, the UAC 5, the AC 10, the AC 20 and even the Gauss Rifle.

It also generates more HPS than all of them.

That, is the balance point.


The ER PPC designed to function at 800m has the projectile speed of an AC 10.

Yet 2x ER PPCs has higher heat spike and heat per second than Dual AC 20s with ghost heat.


It should be hot, lower DPS and long range and accurate.

Not hot and lower DPS and slow, and therefore inaccurate at it's designed long range.

#93 Mothykins

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 07:25 PM

Yeah. I'm pretty much in agreement with X there. "The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat."

I'd actually take a slight hit to ROF to get that range and speed back, or something like the gauss charge but for range or speed, with a heat spike for charging too long, similar to a capacitor overload, though it might give it too much "flex" unless you implement it inversely; As range goes up, speed goes down, as opposed to both going up, giving you the speed at shorter range instead; It would make timing very important. It would make it slightly harder to manage, but give it a good potential if you figure it out. Even then the concept is a bit wishy-washy.


Meanwhile, at medium ranges the Large Pulse rules in energy, full stop, which is how it should be. Seriously. A Stalker with two of those is pretty gross. For the same weight as the PPC you get a slightly lower range but much less heat, crits and recycle. It's nasty.

Edited by Cavale, 20 September 2014 - 07:25 PM.


#94 Mister Blastman

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 07:27 PM

I like the gameplay currently.

#95 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 07:54 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 20 September 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:


Then I'll just keep repeating that is balanced by having lower DPS than every single Autocannon: the AC 2, AC 5, the UAC 5, the AC 10, the AC 20 and even the Gauss Rifle.

It also generates more HPS than all of them.

That, is the balance point.


The ER PPC designed to function at 800m has the projectile speed of an AC 10.

Yet 2x ER PPCs has higher heat spike and heat per second than Dual AC 20s with ghost heat.


It should be hot, lower DPS and long range and accurate.

Not hot and lower DPS and slow, and therefore inaccurate at it's designed long range.


Infinite ammo. This makes missing far less relevant.

No explosive component.

Occupies a fraction of the total space.

That's why the low DPS; same reason lasers have a lower DPS. Unlimited ammo.

Completely separate from the need to balance damage/range/accuracy against all the other ballistic fire PPFLD weapons.

If we want to make it an ion beam so it's DoT that's fine, make it hitscan and do 10pts over 0.7 seconds or whatever the right balance for that is.

And, of course, we can come back to the fundamental issue -

We did this already, with various changes, for over 18 months and it was bad.

We already had fast PPCs. Already did it. There isn't a question of what it looks like or how it plays - there's no speculation there, no uncertainty. PPCs were dominate and OP compared to all other weapons and it absolutely destroyed all other aspects of balance for ACs and lasers. You took PPCs + ACs (to use while the PPCs cool) or you played gimped.

Asking to speed up PPCs is asking to go back to what we just left in order to have a balanced field of weapons.

Saying 'no no, it is balanced by higher heat' is asking everyone to totally forget the nearly two years we saw how, actually, no that doesn't balance PPCs at all it just turns the game into a bunch of snipers and a few poor dedicated fools trying to play something other than PPC+AC mix. PPC + ACs is still very effective - it's just not dominant.

Trying to go back to that much reviled game environment 'just a bit, like most the way back to it' isn't going to fly for those of us who enjoy having a selection of viable weapons bigger than 2.

PPC speed nerf was one of the best things to happen to this game in a long time and it was hugely over-due.

#96 Xanquil

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 03:14 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 19 September 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Improvise, adapt, overcome.


Oh Rah!


Both of my favorite sayings from the time I was in the Marines.

Along with "Semper Fi" obviously.

#97 Quxudica

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 04:16 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 September 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Oh, as to the fair question fair answer bit, how about this?

'Among ballistics, which do you see the most of? AC2, AC5, UAC5, PPC, AC10, AC20, Gauss?'

You'd get an even spread of answers these days between PPC, Gauss and AC5. Those three are the most common ballistics. Before you'd have heard 'PPC, absolutely, followed by AC5'.

Now we've got a more balanced environment. AC2 was always niche but could probably use some work. AC20, niche but useful. AC10... like I said. LB10X with slug and shot ammo options will change that.

PPC is one of the most common ballistics in play.


I don't see how the LBX having slug ammo options would fix the AC10. it does the opposite, it completely obsoletes the AC10. Unless you mean it "fixes" the weapon insofar as the LBX basically becomes a better AC10.

#98 Reno Blade

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 05:31 AM

The Gauss is perfect with the charge and should NOT be changed at all !
In good hands and without counter fire (shake) you have all day long to aim and you can hit at very long range compared to PPCs or AC10/20.
Even in a brawl you can use it, if you are skilled enough to time the charge and not get overwhelmed by enemy fire shaking you.

If it's too hard to use, get some training/practice.


The PPCs are quite slow, but any increase in speed will make it sync with AC5 for long ranges over 600m.
I used my Adder with 1cERPPC and 2SRM6 yesterday on alpine and had 3 hits on a moving Mad Cat at 1200m range. Now go and say you can't hit anything beyond 500m!
In its curent state your best to use it reliably at 400-500m and it will still be better than LPulse or LLaser, but the ERLL will rival it for range and accuracy at longer ranges (if you can hold the beam!).

If you need a Clan weapon that does less than 15 heat and about 10 damage -> cLPulse here we go! Only freebirths need normal PPCs!



If you want to keep the enemies at bay with long range weapons, so they don't smash you with their med/short range stuff, you have enough options.
But the biggest one is teamplay, strategy and movement!

Using ERLL, LRM, Gauss and even ERPPCs and AC2,5,10s together with teamwork and movement will deal with any rushing enemy force before they can close in too fast.
Ofc, if you are poking behind cover every minute and expect to one-shot people like PPC/Gauss before (exaberated), you will suddenly face your enemies that took the time and closed in.
Be mobile, play together, and don't just boat a single weapon type.
Always have a packup plan/weapon.

#99 DjPush

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 05:44 AM

Shouldnt the title of this thread be: "Return AC20 to its former glory?"

Edited by DjPush, 21 September 2014 - 05:45 AM.


#100 Eddrick

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 08:20 AM

For a long time, people complained about long range being dominent. Now, after its nerf. Someone complains about the lack of long range.





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