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Can We Just Double Armor And Hp Again Already?


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#121 IceSerpent

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:26 PM

View PostMystere, on 20 September 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

I wouldn't call that abuse. That's just smart play.


It is smart play. Problem is that it promotes camping. If I know (or strongly suspect) that the other team has their guns zeroed in on the ridge I need to crest in order to get to them, the smart play for me would be to not go there and camp my side of the same ridge. If both teams are smart, the end result would be both teams camping and nobody going anywhere, which is pretty boring gameplay.

#122 Wolfways

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:27 PM

Why not have all weapons automatically converge at their optimal range? Long range weapons would also become less viable at shorter ranges which is something players have been asking for.

#123 Augustus Martelus II

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:28 PM

and smaller weapons would suffer the most wich mean light mechs and some med mechs build

#124 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:30 PM

View PostMystere, on 20 September 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:


Minimal convergence? [My brain must be really slow today].

In any case, let me explain further ...

Instead of having the automatic convergence we now have that is unfortunately also instant (which I think is the real but unsolvable culprit due to CryEngine), convergence will have to be a fixed distance set in the game's settings. We also can have separate convergence distances for head/torso and arm-mounted weapons.

Alternatively or in addition, convergence can be adjusted in-game via mouse-wheel or key presses.

So if a player wants to have all weapons hit at the same location, the target must be within the convergence sweet spot that was set.

so..WWII fighters targeting?

#125 IceSerpent

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:30 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 20 September 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Um...if we can "manually adjust our convergence" why would companies (well anyone, actually) not have minimal convergence? Manually adjusting does ....nothing, unless I am totally misunderstanding you?


You are misundertanding. Manual convergence is how guns converged on WWII fighters - you set a distance at which they fully converge. So, there's no such thing as "minimal convergence". Still, not a very good idea IMHO (see my other posts).

#126 Artgathan

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:32 PM

View PostShadowbaneX, on 20 September 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:


As...unfond of the AC/2 as I am and in drastic favour of having it's DPS reduced, giving it TT DPS values would essentially make it a stupidly long range Machine Gun. Firing once every ten seconds or cutting the damage values by half is a bit much.


I agree there'd be a need for some balancing (again). That said, having TT DPS doesn't necessarily mean only having one shot even 10 seconds. For instance, an AC/20 that fires shots doing 5 damage every 2.5 seconds has a DPS of 2 (the TT DPS).

EDIT: I'm not saying that this is my preferred solution to the problem, just that there are multiple ways to approach the issue without resorting to "double everything again".

Edited by Artgathan, 20 September 2014 - 12:33 PM.


#127 Wolfways

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:32 PM

View PostAugustus Martelus II, on 20 September 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

and smaller weapons would suffer the most wich mean light mechs and some med mechs build

Assuming you were replying to me, how?

#128 Koniving

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:56 PM

View PostShadowbaneX, on 20 September 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

It's the 30st century, convergence should automatically be set to whatever you're locked on to...perhaps it should have a default if you're not locked on to something...might make more people actually use it.

It's the 31st century.
However, technology has been frequently acquired, destroyed, recreated, destroyed. Entire campaigns are set out to completely wipe technology from the face of the galaxy.

For far over 150 years, the double heatsink, a commodity that every single mech had 400 years before, was wiped out entirely. All knowledge of how to create it completely lost. The ones that were left had no way of properly repairing them.. Eventually it became entirely extinct.

The NARC had been wiped out since 2792, and only made its return in the years following a database recovery in 3028 and redeveloped.
"Introduced: 2587 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct: 2795 (Inner Sphere)
Recovered: 3035 (Free Worlds League)"
NARC.

Battlemechs, once capable of very fluid and perfectly human-like movements in the 2600s to the extent of hurling grenades and ripping each other's heads off, were reduced to much more robotic controls and movements after the original and much more powerful neural helmets were discovered to cause people to go insane and significantly shorten lifespans. (These were the original helmets that couldn't even rotate, thusly requiring that the entire mech rotate its head instead so the pilot could see; one example of the ability of a mech of the time is the precision of playing Cat's Cradle, a game involving the twisting and manipulation of string with all of your fingers to make specific shapes.)

At the current time line, the average Inner Sphere Battlemech is over 50 years old, rebuilt time and time again from replacement parts. Brand new battlemechs are kept very close to homeworlds or given to the absolute elite units.

As an example, Capellan front line units in what I've recently read are being fielded covered in rust, riddled with unrepairable damage and are often pushed through battles without repairs in between. The narrating pilot described them as "an unstoppable horde of the dead that just won't stay that way."

The range of an AC/20 isn't because of low propellant in a single shot, but the nasty recoil of a weapon that averages between 15 and 10 shots to get out 20 damage (with extreme variants being between 100 shots [Pontiac 100] and 4 shots [Chemjet Gun]).

The mechs themselves are typically between 3 and 6 stories tall [3 meters or 10 feet is considered the standard for 1 story. A mech is between 8 meters [2.x stories] and 14+ meters tall [5.x+ stories] (considerably smaller than MWO), and their gyros are far from perfect (20 damage in 10 seconds can knock one over with ease; in fact a single PPC knocked my Nova down as I'm writing this; these damn Clan Buster King Crabs are a lot tougher than I thought they would be).

Tabletop simulates the accuracy of mechs in the form of roll penalties. 0 for stationary, 1 for walking, 2 for running, 3 for jumping. Currently because my gyro is damaged I am also suffering additional penalties because my mech's AC causes my mech to be less stable when firing, so if I fire my UAC/5 the recoil is enough to cause my Nova (a Clan mech; far more advanced and 'modern' compared to the IS mechs) to lose balance.

If it says anything, they are using FAXes to send information and while a Battlemech is far more versatile, in the IS a 100 ton tank is superior to an Atlas, up until it gets tracked. Far more accurate than Battlemechs too while the tank is able to move, as the tech there has never suffered the kind of losses that Battlemech technology has. (I've had a single 100 ton tank + a Commando take on an Atlas [100 tons] and 5 Enforcers and win. Though it was tracked in the first shot).

For a good example, run a Locust, Stalker, Highlander, or Shadowhawk in third person. Watch them move. Those weapons have no way to adjust for any of the mech's movements. None at all. They don't even have a way to converge in the way that they do in MWO. (BT mechs don't have convergence in the torso weapons; this is why all ballistic weaponry has a 90 meter minimum range penalty. ACs included. This is because the weapons cannot pivot and therefore cannot adjust or converge. Instead you have to align with just that weapon to try and make a shot.)

Edited by Koniving, 20 September 2014 - 01:09 PM.


#129 Augustus Martelus II

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:00 PM

View PostWolfways, on 20 September 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Assuming you were replying to me, how?


Well i was refering about double armor lol

#130 Wolfways

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:20 PM

View PostAugustus Martelus II, on 20 September 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Well i was refering about double armor lol

lol okay :)

#131 ShadowbaneX

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:22 PM

View PostKoniving, on 20 September 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

It's the 31st century.
However, technology has been frequently acquired, destroyed, recreated, destroyed. Entire campaigns are set out to completely wipe technology from the face of the galaxy.


meh, close enough. I'm familiar with the tech and lore, that's not the point. The point is that 1000 years in to the space 80s computers should be able figure out the range to it's target and then adjust the weapons accordingly.

Currently the pin point happens to hit whatever you're aiming at. If you're pointing right at a mech, your weapons will converge on it. If you're leading a target it'll converge on what ever the background is at. This is very noticble with something like the Cataphract-4X with quad AC/5s where rounds from one arm will hit, but the other will go wide because it's converging at a point off in the distance.

All that said, if the point of convergance were to be set to the distance for whatever target you've got locked, well, you'd actually be able to lead your target and hit with weapons in both arms.

#132 KraftySOT

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:22 PM

Yup the minimum range penalty is based on the fact that the guns cant traverse (or converge) on targets that close.

For missiles thats why theres a min range.

Has nothing to do with damage...and everything to do with the pilots ability to bring that weapon on target.

Take for instance the 25 ton Char Bis 1 heavy tank from world war two. Had a turrent mounted 37mm, and a front mounted 75mm gun in the chassis. There were serious dead zones where the two weapons could not fire on the same target, and nothing but moving the entire tanks chassis to the left or right, would let you traverse the 75mm gun left or right.

A battlemech, even in the future, isnt going to have the space for torso mounted weapons, large ones, to have anything but an up and down traverse, thats linked with the torso. It has no ability to converge on a target. It just fires straight out. Everything else is up to the skill of the pilot.

And under a certain range...youre going to have a much harder time with this weapon, because it cant converge or traverse in place.

#133 KraftySOT

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:28 PM

View PostShadowbaneX, on 20 September 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:


meh, close enough. I'm familiar with the tech and lore, that's not the point. The point is that 1000 years in to the space 80s computers should be able figure out the range to it's target and then adjust the weapons accordingly.

Currently the pin point happens to hit whatever you're aiming at. If you're pointing right at a mech, your weapons will converge on it. If you're leading a target it'll converge on what ever the background is at. This is very noticble with something like the Cataphract-4X with quad AC/5s where rounds from one arm will hit, but the other will go wide because it's converging at a point off in the distance.

All that said, if the point of convergance were to be set to the distance for whatever target you've got locked, well, you'd actually be able to lead your target and hit with weapons in both arms.



Actually no IS mech has a computer....

Theres a thing called a targeting computer...which helps you aim. Though that doesnt exist in this game really. There is no assistance, its just you...and apparently weapons can magically traverse and rotate in their mounts...

I like what someone said in another thread...they brought up cruise missiles fired from naval vessels using satellites for aiming that are the most accurate things in the world, still miss by 3-8 meters usually.

Youll have to excuse my laughter while I contemplate mechs hitting single pixels with all their weapons instantly....im sure in the 31st century theyll still wish their weapons are that accurate.

The USN wishes its weapons were that accurate today :)

Also its really annoying that your mech while moving, is actually jostling up and down by 4 to 10 feet every step...but that has no apparent effect on your accuracy.

Theres nothing different about a weapon in your hands, and a weapon strapped to a mech. When the mechs a movin, so are the weapons in it. It hitting a pin point target is pretty freaking ridiculous...even in the 31st century.

Unless the laws of physics have changed fundamentally...theres alot of silliness in all the MW titles.

#134 KraftySOT

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:31 PM

Also one thing people seem to keep ignoring is gearing resolution.

If you only have 1 degree traverse resolution, you have dead spaces at long range. Tanks had this problem in world war two. At 1,000 meters, 1 degree at a time, leaves you unable to fire at pinpoint targets without moving the chassis.

Think of it has having 360 positions. If the target is between position 284 and 285, you have to move the chassis to make up for that lack of resolution.

#135 dario03

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:34 PM

I wouldn't mind increasing armor/internals again but I think double might be a bit much, at least all at once. Maybe something like 20-25% and see how that goes. Or 20% armor, 30% internals so there is more of a chance to lose weapons and equipment before dying.

#136 Koniving

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 01:35 PM

View PostKraftySOT, on 20 September 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Also its really annoying that your mech while moving, is actually jostling up and down by 4 to 10 feet every step...but that has no apparent effect on your accuracy.



I always did find it hilarious. (Sorry 'bout the music there.)
Watch that bounce.


Some impossible convergence!

Edited by Koniving, 20 September 2014 - 01:37 PM.


#137 KuroNyra

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 02:11 PM

double the resistance of the Assaut and Heavy mech. :P

#138 ShadowbaneX

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 02:12 PM

View PostKraftySOT, on 20 September 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Actually no IS mech has a computer....

Theres a thing called a targeting computer...which helps you aim. Though that doesnt exist in this game really. There is no assistance, its just you...and apparently weapons can magically traverse and rotate in their mounts...



See: a thousand years into the space 80's...as in 1980s. Things were branched off, It's a lot like the Cyberpunk 2020 system which Cell phones being stupidly expensive and data modules still requiring tapes or the like rather than solid state drives or whatever other advancements. Just because they couldn't fathom small computers back when the system was conceived, doesn't mean that 1000 years in the future it wouldn't be stupidly easy to have them in game.

No computers? Sure, right then. I'm aware that Targeting Computers don't come in to the game later, but that's something specificially designed to make hitting specific components. This would just be, hey a target is at 250 m. Adjust so that things converge at that location. As for weapons moving in their mounts, well, that's a bit of an issue, but we're already dealing with Space Magic, so who cares. A bit of Ret-Conning and things work.

As for instantly correcting, that's how it works, right now. It's just that it converges on what the background is. I don't care if it shouldn't work to pixel perfection, that's how it's coded. Whatever your cursor is on, that's where your weapons converge. What I'm suggesting is that a bit more reasonably, is that your weapons converge at whatever distance your locked on target is at. It'd make leading targets and hitting with both feasible.

If you really want to go nuts with your pixel perfect precision and all that jazz, you could always add a bit of RNG or target deviation so that weapons aren't always precise. Just don't bother using the "hey, it never works like that in the real world" because the game isn't the real world. It's Space Magic, and the game would get really boring if we had to add a bunch of real world physics to it...such as removing giant walking robots for a start.

#139 Mystere

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 02:14 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 20 September 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

so..WWII fighters targeting?


If we do not have the ability to adjust convergence while in a match, then yes, that is what it will be like. Which is why I think in-match adjustments should also be included.

In addition, the targeting computer can be modified to make in-match adjustment faster for Clan mechs. As for IS mechs, I am at a loss on how this should be done.

#140 KraftySOT

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 02:17 PM

View PostKoniving, on 20 September 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:



I always did find it hilarious. (Sorry 'bout the music there.)
Watch that bounce.


Some impossible convergence!



I seriously love your posts.





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