337 replies to this topic

[PANZERKAT]

4th Succession war rules. Mechs starting with damage and less ammo due to being beat to crap.

I can't believe they even floating the option for this game that you may have to play a match damaged because you didn't repair haha.

War Thunder has it right. You can pay to repair or the vehicle goes on a timer before it can be used at all.

[Koniving]

KraftySOT, on 20 September 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

I seriously love your posts.

Why thank you.

[KraftySOT]

ShadowbaneX, on 20 September 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

See: a thousand years into the space 80's...as in 1980s. Things were branched off, It's a lot like the Cyberpunk 2020 system which Cell phones being stupidly expensive and data modules still requiring tapes or the like rather than solid state drives or whatever other advancements. Just because they couldn't fathom small computers back when the system was conceived, doesn't mean that 1000 years in the future it wouldn't be stupidly easy to have them in game.

No computers? Sure, right then. I'm aware that Targeting Computers don't come in to the game later, but that's something specificially designed to make hitting specific components. This would just be, hey a target is at 250 m. Adjust so that things converge at that location. As for weapons moving in their mounts, well, that's a bit of an issue, but we're already dealing with Space Magic, so who cares. A bit of Ret-Conning and things work.

As for instantly correcting, that's how it works, right now. It's just that it converges on what the background is. I don't care if it shouldn't work to pixel perfection, that's how it's coded. Whatever your cursor is on, that's where your weapons converge. What I'm suggesting is that a bit more reasonably, is that your weapons converge at whatever distance your locked on target is at. It'd make leading targets and hitting with both feasible.

If you really want to go nuts with your pixel perfect precision and all that jazz, you could always add a bit of RNG or target deviation so that weapons aren't always precise. Just don't bother using the "hey, it never works like that in the real world" because the game isn't the real world. It's Space Magic, and the game would get really boring if we had to add a bunch of real world physics to it...such as removing giant walking robots for a start.

A TAC is the only way to really make an aimed shot against something that isnt immobile. Jumping clan mechs with pulse lasers and TACs aim shotting you is pretty par for the course in Megamek games lol

But honestly, youre linked into your mech through a wetware jack implanted in your brain. You had surgery before you piloted a mech (convientely forgotten alot of the times)

I always want to know if the state pays for that procedure, or youre on your own.

At any rate...

You aim. You. You are the mech. The mech walks like you, moves like you, ducks, runs, leans, goes prone, punches, kicks, trips, climbs, just like you. You think about moving your arm, you move your arm.

You move the arm at what youre looking at, and think to fire the weapons. Wether or not you hit, is up to you as an individual. Not the computer. It has nothing to do with it, and no IS mech until after the clans invade, have onboard systems that do anything really...its all you. Some might have a command cockpit or more systems in the lore...but you dont even have a radar. Thats what BAPs, Magscans, and ECM are for...thats why LOS matters and you cant see a mech on the other side of a building, unlike an MBT today that can tell pretty much where everything is via connection with a satellite, awacs, troops, or even simple radar.

One of the main factors in a mechwarrior hitting or missing a target, is your own eye sight, and ability to bring the mechs weapons to your eye point and fire them, thinking about where the weapons are firing from.

A hunchback pilots whole life in a mech, revolves around putting that AC/20 on target. Its not moving a crosshair, its moving your actual own physical right chest and firing a weapon from it. Thats what your perspective as a mechwarrior is going to be like. Like youre firing these weapons from positions on your own body.

Which given the to hit percentages, means most shots fired at a run and medium to long range, miss. Even the best pilots in the books, have trouble hitting things. Its usually a matter of the disconnect between your eye point, and the actual point of origin of the weapons, and total lack of covergence.

[Mystere]

Koniving, on 20 September 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

For a good example, run a Locust, Stalker, Highlander, or Shadowhawk in third person. Watch them move. Those weapons have no way to adjust for any of the mech's movements. None at all. They don't even have a way to converge in the way that they do in MWO. (BT mechs don't have convergence in the torso weapons; this is why all ballistic weaponry has a 90 meter minimum range penalty. ACs included. This is because the weapons cannot pivot and therefore cannot adjust or converge. Instead you have to align with just that weapon to try and make a shot.)

In all honesty, I would like that. But I might be in a small minority.

Edited by Mystere, 20 September 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[KraftySOT]

And clearly im saying...

CHANGE THE CODE.

Whats funny is that im sure the Crysis developer kit comes with scripts already loaded....

They had to delete the scripts that every other FPS in the world uses to account for inaccuracy of weapon systems, and coded one thats pin point accurate...they CHOSE to code their raycasts this way.


Maybe the devkit didnt come like that for Crysis as the studio level, but Unity Professional sure does.

Mystere, on 20 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

In all honestly, I would like that. But I might be in a small minority.

I doubt its the minority. Even people who say they wouldnt like it...would....because they all play Battlefield and Planetside where its standard operating procedure that all your weapons dont fire like instagib rail guns. The millions of WoT and War Thunder players cant be wrong lol

Most games go to lengths to make sniping a challenge.

Here its like the old AR-15 sales pitch...ITS SO EASY A CHILD COULD DO IT! lol

[Gorgo7]

Regarding the post title: Don't be ridiculous.

Edited by Gorgo7, 20 September 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[KraftySOT]

And everyone wll like it the first time they crest a hill, stare a 4 PPC warhawk in the face at 600m, and the alpha strike hits you as you back down the other side, and you look up after not instantly exploding and see that your arm, your right torso, and your right leg were hit, and yer RL was the part stripped of armor with 2 hits. Not just being instantly cored.

The warhawk will be all ... buut heee diddnnttt dieeee....then he looks down and notices his heats only at 2...

All is well in the world again.

[Lily from animove]

I say double internals only and half the armor on all mechs, this will cause more wepaons to be destroyed before the whole section drops off. fights will go longer because crippled mechs lose ttk. Then probably buff some bigger is mechs internals as well, or give them a buff like

-10% critchance. because you know they are oldschool big bulky tech mechs and therefore like russion tehcnolog: not so easy to break

this will ensure that IS emchs with havign less wepaons compared to IS mechs will stay well armed longer, while clanmechs preferably lose wepaons faster.

[KraftySOT]

Lily from animove, on 20 September 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

I say double internals only and half the armor on all mechs, this will cause more wepaons to be destroyed before the whole section drops off. fights will go longer because crippled mechs lose ttk. Then probably buff some bigger is mechs internals as well, or give them a buff like

-10% critchance. because you know they are oldschool big bulky tech mechs and therefore like russion tehcnolog: not so easy to break

this will ensure that IS emchs with havign less wepaons compared to IS mechs will stay well armed longer, while clanmechs preferably lose wepaons faster.

its not a bad idea, its just not TT.

But I would rather see this, than no change at all. Targeting specific spots would come back into play, which at least keeps you from getting cored...no ones after yer 2 med lasers...since the fastest way to turn a threat into a non threat is to destroy its ability to harm you, instead of trying to core it.

It would at least lead to better more tactical gameplay and I wont hate on an idea just because its not TT when it helps lead to more TT like RESULTS...which is combat not being a game of HIT THEM IN THE **** EARL!!!

[KraftySOT]

But from a game design theory stand point....I believe strongly that you dont want mechs all dying because of losing the CT before feeling the degradation of power in your mech first. If you wont change the way aiming works, at least make it more beneficial to not target the CT, than to target the CT.

From a F2P stand point where youre trying to hock your different mechs advantages and disadvantages...mechs that you want to learn their load outs are good...familiarity breeds desire. The more youre always targeting that Atlas's torso, the Hunchie, the Novas arms, the Orions arm...the more youre likely to buy an Orion or a Nova or whatever. Its more strategic depth if youre fighting different mechs in different ways.

The coolest part of the uber realistic World War Two Online, was that each tank had historically accurate weak points, and every tank on tank fight was a game of chess that you almost always lost if you didnt know how to fight the enemy tank. (WOT has this too, its just the time period every is in out of the first tiers, guns penetration values got high enough that you werent bouncing as many shots and WOT does a little historical balancing for game play purposes, not a bad thing, SOME concessions have to be made, just not as many and as often as people think, WOT and Warthunder in the realism modes are pretty darned good)

If you didnt know the Char B1 had its engine behind the right side grille...youd always lose to it hammering the turret, front, or left side where the armor was the thickest and no internal components worth a damn were.

This would add alot of depth to this game, and would help drastically.

Edited by KraftySOT, 20 September 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I don't have an issue with the pinpoint convergence as much as I do the almost gliding accuracy while moving. And I don't really want an RNG, especially like WoTs because then it'll be a campfest like WoT. And before anyone goes, "b-b-but BF4 and CoD42 have RNG!"

Yes and no. They have RNG scale upwards as the weapons fire, their first shot? It's on just that one pixel, kind of like real world firearms.

With proper ammunition (IE not cheap surplus garbage) my R700 .308 achieves sub 1MOA levels of accuracy, and in comps I was putting the rounds within a 10 inch circle at 600m and the REALLY good shots? They were putting their shots in a sub 6 inch circle at that range.

So essentially the weapon is going to put the bullet where you want it IF YOU have the skill to put it there.

I want to see reticule deviation:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3273185

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 04 April 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

So, was derping about in testing grounds looking at my pretty pink Battlemaster in 3PV while testing some changes.

I noticed in 3PV there is reticule sway as the mech moves, and it moves in step to the mech. Kind of how it would be if we had stompy robots that shot laser beams, bullets, and missiles.

So too see if it was not just a cosmetic thought, but a potentially gameplay impacting one; I more or less wrote my name in the snow (not really, medium lasers have a weak stream).

Video! (Probably shouldn't have left my headset sitting on the desk, you can hear my keyboard and it kills my OCD.)

But as you can see in 3PV the lasers drew a line in the snow that was not straight. It was affected by the stepping of the mech as it bobbed up and down and swayed gently left and right.

However, in 1PV it was smooth as a baby's bottom.


I think having the 3PV crosshair sway would add some more elements to the gunnery of MWO. It might help with the reining in of direct fire as well. I also think Koniving did a topic on this some time back, but I'm unable to find it. Or I'd just necro the hell out of it.


Questions? Comments? Incoming tomatoes?

Which will help to bring some element of skill back into the game as far as gunnery goes, IMO.

[Mystere]

Wolfways, on 20 September 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

That would basically remove mechs like the Jagermech from the game. It is already forced to carry too much tonnage in ammo.

Why is that? The Jag has both ballistic and laser hardpoints.

[Wolfways]

Mystere, on 20 September 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Why is that? The Jag has both ballistic and laser hardpoints.

The lasers are just backup weapons. The JM6-S and JM6-DD are made to carry 4xAC's as their main weapons. I feel that ammo/ton right now is ridiculous as you need to fit around 9tons instead of the stock 3tons just to be able to use your weapons for (sometimes nearly) a whole match.

[Koniving]

Mystere, on 20 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

In all honestly, I would like that. But I might be in a small minority.

This is related only because it's part of how I plan to demonstrate that non-converging torso thing. But if nothing else it should make a fun read.

Spoiler

For an animation I'm working on which is part of a little thingy archive I'm working on called "Battletech Online, if Koniving was designing it..." I have a scenario involving an Awesome, a Raven, and a Commando.

It's meant to feature a number of small aspects, including a hint to melee (which I have another animation planned using better suited mechs), destructible buildings, but more importantly I am working on it to showcase specific things that I really wanted to see but never will in MWO.

One such thing goes along with the '10 second rule', where in 10 seconds you can shoot 3 PPCs just fine with an Awesome. But not necessarily at once. So, as part of the demonstration I am working on demonstrating convergence with arm and torso weaponry when torso weaponry cannot converge.

At this point in time, the Awesome comes to a complete stop. Priming its left torso PPC and the right arm PPC, the two charge up. As the power builds, the pilot aligns the right arm 'x' crosshair with the '+' of the LT after setting the torso crosshairs to 450 meters. This way when the shot converges at that point, it will be perfectly criss-crossing at 450 meters. (Using both external and internal camera angles to show this off).

As the buildup of the PPCs comes to its peek (it's been approximately one second), the Commando who at this time was completely unaware of the impending threat is (for cinematic purposes) having a conversation with the Raven pilot, who is some distance back.

The Raven, who due to his position as he walks at quarter speed on asphault, spots the Awesome but hasn't 'detected' it yet. The Commando is still clueless that it's about to be vaporized. (Time rescaled back to when the charge up first started and was being aligned.)
Cranking the gear forward, the Raven pilot shifts into full throttle. His thumb pushes in a button, enabling the sprint mode which shifts energy from weapons power into running, pushing his myomers to the limit.

As he gets close, he initiates a melee attack, bracing the Raven's head downward for a head-on-ram into the Commando. This would obviously hurt the friendly Commando, but compared to the double blast from twin PPCs the Commando would survive. As the mech builds up speed, a foot slips but catches itself (showing that running on Asphault is a bad idea).

Back to the Awesome. It fires. The zap first crosses the screen like lightning, and a transparent wave of heat energy immediately follows, causing bits of the sky to ignite into a blue directional flame followed by a series of electrical pulses in the sky.

The Raven slams into the Commando, knocking it down with the intention of clearing the Commando out of the line of fire. (Flash to the pilot's perspective of the Commando, the sudden force and the forward slam into the ground all the way to the straining seatbelt on the body that prevents the pilot from falling from her seat. The front armor dents as the mech hits the ground and screeches along the pavement, causing minor damage. The pilot isn't hurt due to bracing herself (and the seatbelt) and quickly works to get up.

The Raven's intention was to also use its momentum to clear the PPC blasts if possible. He managed to get enough speed and angle to avoid the full impact, obtaining only a glancing blow from the left torso PPC of the Awesome into the Raven's left arm shield arm (it's a 2x).

The two PPCs were fired in such a way that they would converge with the LT PPC going straight | and the RA PPC coming in from an angle. \
|\

So while the first PPC just crazed the mech's arm, the Awesome's right arm PPC however, though it converged at 450 meters, kept going without the target at 450 meters. With the actual distance to the Raven being 453 meters, the second PPC went past the arm and instead hit the left torso. The combined blow along with the impact causing the Raven to tumble, slamming into a building and concaving some of the structure. The pilot himself is hanging upside down, vision blurred, hazed. On his monitor, a view of the Commando pilot is trying to rouse him awake.

From the corner of the pilot's viewport, you can see part of the Commando as it stands up.

The Awesome during all of this is only just now starting to move forward. The delay being to allow the weapons to cool. The Awesome's immense armor is mostly unconcerned about either mech's offensive abilities.

From there, I haven't decided where the story will go. But on a similar note; "DC" mech players will love mechs that have command consoles; a secondary pilot and/or commander would allow for the secondary pilot to take over if the primary is unconscious.

(For unconscious, take War Thunder's driver is unconscious tidbit. Add visual effects. Of course, the game would likely have similar pacing which some would like and some won't.)

(Edit: To make the sprint/melee tidbit more practical with the speed of a PPC I had to change the distance of the attack. Forgot to change it in the rest of the text.)

Edited by Koniving, 20 September 2014 - 03:10 PM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Wolfways, on 20 September 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

While I'd like a lower heat capacity and increased dissipation (or preferably a slower weapon ROF) and I'd love to see a heat scale (BT's heat scale) my concern is that BT is heat over time while MWO is heat spikes. Having a heat scale at about 30% would seriously hurt high heat weapons like the (already bad imo, even before the speed nerf) ER/PPC's. you couldn't fire without constantly being affected by heat. The Nova would be useless!

You understand badly BT heat scale. In real there are 2 bars, like 2 heat scales. One that is heat sinks capacity and the other one that you see on mech sheet that is heat penalty scale. So for example GRF-1N that has 12 heat capacity can fire hes PPC all day long without hitting even 1 level on penalty heat scale, things get changed if he start to use hes LRM 10 rack as well, thats why smart GRF-1N pilots use all weapons only while standing still and even then they need to cool off.

[Quxudica]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 20 September 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I don't have an issue with the pinpoint convergence as much as I do the almost gliding accuracy while moving. And I don't really want an RNG, especially like WoTs because then it'll be a campfest like WoT. And before anyone goes, "b-b-but BF4 and CoD42 have RNG!"

Yes and no. They have RNG scale upwards as the weapons fire, their first shot? It's on just that one pixel, kind of like real world firearms.

With proper ammunition (IE not cheap surplus garbage) my R700 .308 achieves sub 1MOA levels of accuracy, and in comps I was putting the rounds within a 10 inch circle at 600m and the REALLY good shots? They were putting their shots in a sub 6 inch circle at that range.

So essentially the weapon is going to put the bullet where you want it IF YOU have the skill to put it there.

I want to see reticule deviation:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3273185


Which will help to bring some element of skill back into the game as far as gunnery goes, IMO.

Think this is the common misconception people have when people speak against convergence. While there may be some that want bloom fire randomness, I'd wager more argue what I've advocated: Shots from your weapons should always go to the same points, those points should just not be the same. If you have a PPC in your RT and a PPC in your LT and you fire them both at the same time the two projectiles should never converge together, there should always be space between them. This means in order to hit a target in the same spot with both you need to aim for the RT PPC then adjust your mech and aim for the Second PPC, or simply accept that your simultaneous PPC shots are going to hit more than one location on an eney mech.

additionally, Mechs that have multiple HPs in the same location that technically fire from the same muzzle (a failing of the art design imo) then the cross hair should enlarge based on the number of weapons. If you have six lasers in your arms and fire all at once you are hitting a larger area on the target than if you fired one or two weapons. But nothing about it is random.

[Mystere]

Sable, on 19 September 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

Title says it all. The spike damage nonsense wouldn't be such a problem if it took a whole lot more effort to bring down a mech. Heat management skills would be more valuable since you wouldn't be able to alpha all day long. Maybe it's just tonight but MWO is not fun right now.

In translating from TT to MWO, the problem (I think anyway) has never been the lack of armor. It has always been:

• increased rate of fire
  
• instant and pixel-perfect convergence

As such, those are the problems that need to be addressed.

The difficulty in tackling the first is that things can get boring real fast if the rates of fire get too low. But this can be mitigated by adopting a "more shots, less damage per shot" scheme.

The difficulty in tackling the second seems to be due to the CryEngine itself. So "creative" solutions are needed.

Edited by Mystere, 20 September 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Naw, we just need a seriously revamped heat system so that it discourages mass alpha strikes. Also, 8v8 and bigger maps would help make dying a lil slower.

But doubling HP and armor again? Oh jeeez I hope not...

Then, a slight Cof bloom type mechanic. Not one like World of Tanks, but more like Planetside 2. Your guns go where you aim them by default, but continuous firing with little or no break increases the Cof until your not really hitting anything. Then make increased heat decrease weapon accuracy as well. add in fuzziness to the HUD as you gain heat...slow down recharge timers maybe. There are other ways to increase survivability rather then doubling HP and armor, or nerfing damage and increasing straight weapon heat numbers.

[KraftySOT]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 20 September 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Yes and no. They have RNG scale upwards as the weapons fire, their first shot? It's on just that one pixel, kind of like real world firearms.

Incorrect...almost none of them are pin point on their first shot. Theyre really really accurate, but you can test this yourself with any game that has a decal come up where you hit. Even the best sniper rifles have deviation out of their first shot. All rifles will, and especially all pistols.

Its a very small deviation, but its there. Its there when youre prone or crouched or not moving or whatever that game considers "still".

It especially goes up when moving. You wont get a pixel accurate shot on your first shot while moving.

Id settle for a meet me half way system. So it only applies when youre running. (more than 50% of your movement speed)

Thats legit.

[Wolfways]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 20 September 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

You understand badly BT heat scale. In real there are 2 bars, like 2 heat scales. One that is heat sinks capacity and the other one that you see on mech sheet that is heat penalty scale. So for example GRF-1N that has 12 heat capacity can fire hes PPC all day long without hitting even 1 level on penalty heat scale, things get changed if he start to use hes LRM 10 rack as well, thats why smart GRF-1N pilots use all weapons only while standing still and even then they need to cool off.

I do understand it. You take the amount of heat you generate, remove the amount that your heat sinks dissipate, then add the remainder to your heat scale taking any modifiers indicated.
But in MWO your heat sinks don't instantly negate an amount of heat but instead dissipate over time, while weapons cause spike heat.