337 replies to this topic

[Quxudica]

Lightfoot, on 21 September 2014 - 02:17 AM, said:

MWO mechs do half the damage at twice the recycle as other MechWarrior games, but the mechs last half as long anyway. So the weapons should just be restored to normal Battle Tech operation and the mechs made tough enough to handle normal Battle Tech weapons.

What PGI is doing with all the weapon nerfs is making gameplay very shallow by leaving just a very few weapons that function normally. We have ACs+Lasers and LRMs, everything else is nerfed out of competition and it is starting to show up in-game this way. Gauss Rifle is very specialized instead of standard equipment on mechs (it is you know, just check all the stock mechs that get one). PPC is a total joke weapon being given all the long range drawbacks including 90 meter minimum range, but now it isn't even accurate. Only an idiot would take one over lasers. Point is all this was made necessary by MWO's fragile mechs going pfffft!!!! everytime they take a solid hit. It has nothing to do with balancing one weapon against another.

Make the mechs tougher before you nerf one more weapon PGI, and then try to restore normal Battle Tech gameplay and weapon balance. That would result in much deeper gameplay than you are currently able to offer in MWO.

The reason the last half as long is twofold: Convergence allows pinpoint damage from a mechs entire weapons loadout and the heat system does nothing to discourage high damage alpha strikes being the normal means of firing your weapons. Until these two points are addressed no bandaids they apply will solve the problem.

Quote

More longevity? The game needs to be developed past the 'biggest and ballsiest death ball wins' scenario. Power in numbers, power in focus fire. Mechs only get destroyed quick when half a dozen players are alpha striking the same player...

No idea what game you are playing, I can rip the side torso off an Atlas in a comparatively short amount of time in my medium 2D2. A single alpha can remove torso armor from other medium mechs, blow off parts from Lights and mediums. Hell I three shot a Direwhale I snuck up on (yeah back armor, but still).

The time it takes to do substantial if not lethal damage to all but the highest armored mechs in the game is really silly short. In many situations torso-twisting isn't even effective, when a single alpha can deliever 50-75 points of damage all in one spot at roughly the same time, twisting isn't going to help much.

[Xanquil]

As stated many many times (in this thread and others) the issue is Perfect pinpoint converged alpha strikes. Increasing the armor again isn't going to help with that. The fact that the heaver and slower your mech is the faster it dies should point that out quite well.

[SaltBeef]

I agree a support this idea. Mechs can die way too fast in this game. I would not double the armor maybe just add another 1/3 or 2/3 internal structure and another 1/3 or 2/3 to exterior armor Increase ammo per ton distribution by a fraction. No longer able to Alpha Kill / No longer can mechs sit in the same spot and snipe the increased durability add to counter flanking maneuver time. Weaker lights will have the armor to escape maneuver a bit more. I would then also make it impossible to fire more than 2 guass or 2 PPC's, or 3 ERLL, or 2AC20's at the same time. Remove ghost Heat, Remove charging mechanic for the guass, make it so the only weapons that can be fired while jumping are SRM's and MG's, and Make it known any other weapons grouped with these with intention to fire will result in a programmed misfire of additional weapons system's. PGI owns the Lore rights they can just say the combined weapons systems would overload the Main computer and cause massive neural feedback through the neurohelmet would fix the game in it's entirety. Clans could be Clans IS could be the frothing, filthy Surat droppings they always wanted to be! Game fixed Fun and raking in millions.

[Glythe]

12 vs 12 allows for too much focused fire.


This game was the best with just 8 vs 8. Back then there was actually a lot less zerg-ball tactics.


Conquest saw this the most as there are basically 3 objectives to fight for with only 8 mechs per team. Your team was forced to split up to win.

Every game mode for every map is now the same..... link up zerg the enemy. 4+ mech focus fire and cause landslide victories/losses. It's just really F*****g boring and lame.


You either need to force players to split up or force their lance to fight the enemy that spawns about 200m away. If no allies are within 800m you're pretty much forced to stay split up.


I'd love to see some 4 vs 4 games but that will probably never happen.

[KuroNyra]

I miss the good old day's on Mechwarrior Living Legend, there you had a very special feel.

You know the battle could last just a few second, or a few minutes depending on your opponent mech and yours...


Here's, sometime I feel a Raven is a tought has an Atlas...

[Angel of Annihilation]

I Zeratul I, on 19 September 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

The 12 vs 12 format makes it extremely easy to focus fire.

If 12 mechs are shooting at you, life expectancy is short no matter how much armor you have.

It would different in a 4 vs 4 or 8 vs 8 format.

Or if mechs were more spread out.

Yeah one of my biggest gripes about MWO is the small map size and lack of objectives that would require teams to split off lances to do multiple tasks in order to win. Maps should be about a minimum of 5 times the size they are now, maybe even 10 times.

[StalaggtIKE]

A blanket HP buff would make lighter weapons worthless and further justify high alpha builds. Here's to hoping Russ's solution works.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 21 September 2014 - 05:07 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Turn up the Heat across the board. That will slow the TTK down, despite Alpha potential.

[ice trey]

Get rid of the ability to alpha.

Groups or not, everything is in chain fire.

No two groups can be fired at the same time.

Done. the biggest problem right now, as with the past, was alphas being too powerful in a game where the armor mechanic is supposed to be made alongside a damage mechanic that spreads it out over multiple locations, but instead allows for pinpoint accuracy.

This whole thing could have been avoided with expanding reticules, but no.. that "Eliminates skill".

[101011]

ice trey, on 21 September 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Get rid of the ability to alpha.

Groups or not, everything is in chain fire.

No two groups can be fired at the same time.

Done. the biggest problem right now, as with the past, was alphas being too powerful in a game where the armor mechanic is supposed to be made alongside a damage mechanic that spreads it out over multiple locations, but instead allows for pinpoint accuracy.

This whole thing could have been avoided with expanding reticules, but no.. that "Eliminates skill".

I guarantee you that lasers would become useless. Even with the ability to alpha, most energy boats are poor. Make them spray damage all over the place, and you will completely obsolete them.

[ice trey]

101011, on 21 September 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

I guarantee you that lasers would become useless. Even with the ability to alpha, most energy boats are poor. Make them spray damage all over the place, and you will completely obsolete them.

If you have expanding reticles, lasers can go back to the way they're supposed to be; just like PPCs, they would do full damage to a single location.

The long-beam mechanic was only applied because a shot that instantly hit for its full damage wherever you aimed would be overpowered. If the dev team realized that skill isn't always defined by "Who has the best twiitch-click reflexes", then we'd have avoided a whole slew of issues.

[101011]

ice trey, on 21 September 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

If you have expanding reticles, lasers can go back to the way they're supposed to be; just like PPCs, they would do full damage to a single location.

The long-beam mechanic was only applied because a shot that instantly hit for its full damage wherever you aimed would be overpowered. If the dev team realized that skill isn't always defined by "Who has the best twiitch-click reflexes", then we'd have avoided a whole slew of issues.

FLD lasers? The dev team is moving away from FLD, not closer towards it. Look at how the Clan weapons work. None of them excluding the Gauss Rifle are true pinpoint (the CERPPC is close, but it also does splash damage).
EDIT: need more coffee

Edited by 101011, 21 September 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

As for me right now the armor (doubled TT numbers) is just about OK to accommodate more precise shooting compared to TT. No need to nerf weapons or to double the armor.
One on one the fight can be very long even now, that shows that mechs are durable. And it would be extremely stupid to ask that the mech lived long and happily under focused fire of a lance or more.

[Capt Sternn]

Actually if they could make varying numbers per side the game would be better. 12V12, 8 v 8, 6 v 6, 4 v 4. Both Team and single pug would work better this way. Or have game modes that make you break up your force or you will lose. Coming around a corner and being gunned down by 8 enemy mechs doesn't make for a fun game. Forcing people to either camp or play peek a boo doesn't make for fun battles. This is why you had problems like pop-tarting, super alpha sniper builds and such. Also it has beeen said before and I will say it again; GET THE AIMING RETICLE from World of Tanks. This solves 90% of your weapon issues. Ya you can make that super alpha sniper build but standing still for 3 seconds to take an accurate shot (and Note real snipers don't run and gun) will be very dangerous but that is the price for a big reward (dumping all that damage in 1 location)

Russ. I was in your original first 1000 beta testers. I have been here since day one and have played several times a week all this time. I bought the full founders and Phoenix packages and an A Le Carte Mad Cat. I am seriously thinking about leaving. The camping, the hiding, the non-dynamic fights. This game should be about mobility, taking objectives, flanking the enemy, instead its about camping a ridge, hiding, letting your team mates die if they try and push the enemy because the rest of the morons hide until 1/2 your team is dead then they are hunted down one at a time and murdered. This game has had its ups and downs but it keeps going down hill. And its a shame cause it could be the best game ever. Here are some points that might help:

ECM as it is is way too powerful and has been for years. Cut it back

Pin-pont convergence is not in the spirit of battletech Or makes the game fun. Get rid of it or just give the mech a health bar (which would kill an interesting aspect of the game).

Vary groups sizes (4 v4, 6v6, 8v8) or Tonage limits ( 600 tons a side 6 Dire wolves V 30 Locusts which would be super fun, Money is on the Locusts).

Clan Mechs don't need to be nerfed per say but it should cost more of you sides resources to have them. (such as a clan mech is worth +20 tons over an IS mech)

10 Clan v 12 IS was a great Idea, and I have no idea why this can't happen. The IS guys should be more numerous and the Clan should be slightly more powerful Mech for mech.

Until something gets better I think I have to move on to other games. This just isn't fun anymore, it's annoying.

Edited by Capt Sternn, 21 September 2014 - 06:52 AM.

[oneproduct]

There's some problems with doubling armor again:
1. Catching out of position mechs on their own would be even less rewarding because his teammates would have twice as long to come and rescue him.
2. If some heat changes weren't made as well, then energy based builds would have a hard time in prolonged fights whereas mechs that can use ballistics could continue to fight for the whole duration. Mechs that can carry ballistics are generally already the better mechs (shadowhawk, jagermech, cataphract, victor, etc).
3. Critical hits would be even less significant than they are now. As someone else mentioned halving armor and doubling internals would probably be interesting as it would encourage more weapons destroyed by critical hits and induce more ammo explosions which will help punish IS ballistics which are significantly better than lasers. I don't think that critting weapons would cause that much of a difference in TTK but it would be more interesting.

1 and 2 both of these punish light mechs particularly more than other weight classes since they tend to be energy only and the fast movers who can punish enemies that are out of position.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

101011, on 21 September 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Pinpoint lasers? The dev team is moving away from pinpoint, not closer towards it. Look at how the Clan weapons work. None of them excluding the Gauss Rifle are true pinpoint (the CERPPC is close, but it also does splash damage).

reread what you commented

[SaltBeef]

I do not thinks lasers would be come irrelevant if Ghost heat was removed. Laser weapons would have higher refire rates. Make it so only a strict set amount can be fired at the same time. 4 or 5 med lasers, 3 LL, 2 PPC, 2 gauss , ( 7 or 8 second refire rate No charge mechanic.), 2 ac10 , 1 or 2 ac20, 6 smalls, 2 lrm 20, 2-3 lrm 15, 4 lrm 10, 3 ac5, 4 ac2 .

Everybody's an armchair Game designer myself included.

Edited by SaltBeef, 21 September 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[ShadowbaneX]

White Bear 84, on 21 September 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:

More longevity? The game needs to be developed past the 'biggest and ballsiest death ball wins' scenario. Power in numbers, power in focus fire. Mechs only get destroyed quick when half a dozen players are alpha striking the same player...

I had a match on Terra Therma last night and it had the best brawl I've ever seen in MWO. It started by my side having a light skirmish in the middle and getting control. This was followed by the usual peaking around corners, my side in the middle the other team on the outside looking in. Then once of our lances flanked around behind and got some of the enemy to turn around, and we pushed in, thinking that it was a 6-8 mechs.

Turns out that the entire enemy team was there, but miracle of miracles, when we pushed we all pushed. I was one of the first in with my Vindicator, but since there was a couple of Timberwolves behind me, I only took like damage before the bigger mechs behind me moved in. I charged down the hill firing as I could.

It was a full on melee furball. It was awesome. I did get taken out eventually, but I just sat and watched the melee and it was glorious. My armour actually felt useful as, well, I wasn't instantly focused fired and cored. I actually felt like I was in a (granted, medium sized) giant walking robot and I couldn't help but think, damn, we need more fights like this.

[Mystere]

Glythe, on 21 September 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

12 vs 12 allows for too much focused fire.


This game was the best with just 8 vs 8. Back then there was actually a lot less zerg-ball tactics.

Are you kidding? I'm hoping for battalion sized battles.

[KraftySOT]

101011, on 21 September 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

I guarantee you that lasers would become useless. Even with the ability to alpha, most energy boats are poor. Make them spray damage all over the place, and you will completely obsolete them.

BS

Evidence, quantifiable evidence...or youre just spewing.

101011, on 21 September 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Pinpoint lasers? The dev team is moving away from pinpoint, not closer towards it. Look at how the Clan weapons work. None of them excluding the Gauss Rifle are true pinpoint (the CERPPC is close, but it also does splash damage).

Really? I dont pilot any clan mechs, but it seemed like the lasers still converged...ive taken the trial nova out a time or two, but maybe thats not giving me the full picture.

Thats great if thats the direction were headed. Less pin point damage is good. More inaccuracy is good.

And it sounds like you just contradicted yourself?