337 replies to this topic

[n r g]

You know what WOULD BE A GOOD BALANCE UPDATE FOR MECHWARRIOR ONLINE?

Doubling the armor on legs. Every competitive player in Mechwarrior (yeah I know, it's funny, competition and mechwarrior are antonyms right?) knows how weak the legs are.

competition matches are basically "leg everything!"

it definitely gets boring and I really feel the legs are weak in this game.

I do not agree with doubling armor on the other components however. Mechs already have a lot of armor, and it would just encourage newer players to bypass terrain and simply tank/run in the open (they will still die of course to focus fire).

It was also seem to create an in-balance with weapon damages, like the 30pin point damage of the 2ppc1gauss would seem completely obsolete? (as if that weapon duo is not obsolete already derp)

Edited by E N E R G Y, 21 September 2014 - 11:38 AM.

[stjobe]

Well, what you could do, is of course reduce weapon damage (and go back to TT armour values).

A ML is supposed to do 5 damage in a 10-second turn, that's what it's balanced for.

Currently it can fire 2.5 times in 10 seconds, which means it should really be doing 5 / 2.5 = 2 damage per shot. Not 5. 5 is the Damage-Per-10-Seconds number.

Edited by stjobe, 21 September 2014 - 11:47 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 21 September 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Well, what you could do, is of course reduce weapon damage.

A ML is supposed to do 5 damage in a 10-second turn, that's what it's balanced for.

Currently it can fire 2.5 times in 10 seconds, which means it should really be doing 5 / 2.5 = 2 damage per shot. Not 5. 5 is the Damage-Per-10-Seconds number.

I would prefer not to play paper cut warrior, no matter how it is achieved.

Heavy damage weapons do need a cooldown time increase, but I don't see any real advantage or "fun factor" increase to not only have to grind matches to get anything but also make every match a grind to actually kill stuff.

Make more balance in current weapons by letting the big alpha have it's shot...but also leave said mech vulnerable for a longer period while his gund cycle, presenting openings for more DPS oriented builds to step in.

[n r g]

stjobe, on 21 September 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Well, what you could do, is of course reduce weapon damage.

A ML is supposed to do 5 damage in a 10-second turn, that's what it's balanced for.

Currently it can fire 2.5 times in 10 seconds, which means it should really be doing 5 / 2.5 = 2 damage per shot. Not 5. 5 is the Damage-Per-10-Seconds number.

This isn't tabletop.

No one wants to sit around for 1hour playing a slow game like that.

We get that all you table top 1980's players loved that game, and sure, some elements can be incorporated into this game, but this is a PC game, and for it to be competitive it shouldn't emulate some out-dated 1hour board game

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 September 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

I would prefer not to play paper cut warrior, no matter how it is achieved.

E N E R G Y, on 21 September 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

No one wants to sit around for 1hour playing a slow game like that.

Seems I missed the part where we go back to TT armour values as well

I'll edit that in

(the perils of posting between drops is that all of a sudden - you drop )

Edited by stjobe, 21 September 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

E N E R G Y, on 21 September 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

This isn't tabletop.

No one wants to sit around for 1hour playing a slow game like that.

We get that all you table top 1980's players loved that game, and sure, some elements can be incorporated into this game, but this is a PC game, and for it to be competitive it shouldn't emulate some out-dated 1hour board game

well, if you really want twitchy.... there is Hawken and Titanfall.

Or you can respect the IP, and find a happy medium, which is fast paced, but not insta-death.

Problem is, reducing damage, or doubling armor is not the way to achieve that. Fixing what is actually wrong, the ability to deliver focused, multi-weapon, multiplayer PP damage, ridiculously easily, is.

Issue being, most people cannot agree on how to achieve that.

Second issue being, everybody seems to think just tweaking one thing is the answer, when the actual problem is a multi-layered mess involving the maps, weapon mechanics, heat mechanics, targeting mechanics, etc.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 September 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[Jonny Taco]

stjobe, on 21 September 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

A ML is supposed to do 5 damage in a 10-second turn, that's what it's balanced for.

You missed the part that it was balanced FOR dice rolling hexagrid table top combat, not a skill based suedo mech sim...

After hearing this crap for almost 3 years strait... I've come to the conclusion that people wanting 1 to 1 mirrored TT figures (including the 10 second ROF) need to just stop posting...

Edited by lartfor, 21 September 2014 - 11:53 AM.

[Zordicron]

Russ Bullock, on 19 September 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

It is a scenario that could be likely. However we are getting close to releasing the full IS Quirk pass and it will put some more armor and Internals on mechs in the right places so I need to see how that plays first. I am hoping we can accomplish it this way instead of a blanket increase.

It is good that you are going to follow through with the quirks first.

Question: we were getting hitbox reviews on mechs for a while. Some more then others, but most were going to see the "bikini" treatment for the legs/CT. Is that program on hold, done, waiting in the wings?


On the TTK aspect and why it is what it is: as others have said, PPD is part of the equation, and is indeed the fastest way to take down a foe(giving that aim is taken out of the equation, we are talking just DMG vs armor now) The thing with adding more armor etc across the board- as others have said it wont change the way dmg is done. It will STILL be the fastest way to take down a foe. My worry, looking more broadly at the issue and not just at black and white numbers, it will emphasize the PPD if it takes more to take a mech down.

For instance, say it is fastest to take a JAger down through Side Torso, with PPD because of XL. Now it has twice the HP there. It will take twice the shots right? EXCEPT, the other aspect of this is it will create a bigger gap in performance between PPD and DPS weapons this way, as spreading dmg will then take even longer to take the enemy down vs the PPD shots. To say it another way, it will be even more optimal, and important, to be able to PPD focus one point of a enemy mech to maintian efficient TTK. There is not a simple "now it takes twice as long" result from that type of change.

So, I agree, please finish the quirks first, and I would say follow it with the remaining hitbox alterations, or even do another pass(IMO Awesome still needs some shoulder area removed from ST and added to arm box, among a few other mechs)

[KraftySOT]

E N E R G Y, on 21 September 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

This isn't tabletop.

No one wants to sit around for 1hour playing a slow game like that.

We get that all you table top 1980's players loved that game, and sure, some elements can be incorporated into this game, but this is a PC game, and for it to be competitive it shouldn't emulate some out-dated 1hour board game

BS

Theres no way with any certainty you can say "no one wants that"

I do.

Stjobe does.

So theres two.

Nor FFS!, would it turn an 8 or 9 minute match into an hour long match.

At most...15 to 20 minutes.

If thats past your short attention span...

[n r g]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

well, if you really want twitchy.... there is Hawken and Titanfall.

Or you can respect the IP, and find a happy medium, which is fast paced, but not insta-death.

Problem is, reducing damage, or doubling armor is not the way to achieve that. Fixing what is actually wrong, the ability to deliver focused, multi-weapon, multiplayer PP damage, ridiculously easily, is.

Issue being, most people cannot agree on how to achieve that.

Second issue being, everybody seems to think just tweaking one thing is the answer, when the actual problem is a multi-layered mess involving the maps, weapon mechanics, heat mechanics, targeting mechanics, etc.

hawken or titan fall? twitchy?

have you even played those games? MechWarriorOnline is like a 70 year old with osteoporosis compared to those games?

you would have to basically reverse engineer this game completely to even make it at the pace of some of those games, it's already beyond slow paced and not even in the "happy medium" category.

[Duke Nedo]

I can just say, please don't. There is a decent balance now of 1v1 and 4v1 and 12v1 etc. One should die if focused on by many mechs and 1v1 should be possible to do without having a coffee break in the middle of the engagement...

[Dolph Hoskins]

Duke Nedo, on 21 September 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

I can just say, please don't. There is a decent balance now of 1v1 and 4v1 and 12v1 etc. One should die if focused on by many mechs and 1v1 should be possible to do without having a coffee break in the middle of the engagement...

Yeah I gotta agree. As a whole most aspects of the game feel pretty well measured out once you're on the battlefield.

There are a few things I would like to change about the game as far as preferences that I like, but I wouldn't want to totally convert the feel of everything we have. Over this weekend I have had some great 1v1 slug outs that left me feeling good about the action in the game. If I am getting focused by 4+ enemies I would expect to die quickly, and I have.

[Bishop Steiner]

E N E R G Y, on 21 September 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

hawken or titan fall? twitchy?

have you even played those games? MechWarriorOnline is like a 70 year old with osteoporosis compared to those games?

you would have to basically reverse engineer this game completely to even make it at the pace of some of those games, it's already beyond slow paced and not even in the "happy medium" category.

um...kind of the point I was making. If you want super faced paced and exciting, you are playing the wrong game, from the wrong IP.

GGClose?

[KraftySOT]

lartfor, on 21 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

You missed the part that it was balanced FOR dice rolling hexagrid table top combat, not a skill based suedo mech sim...

After hearing this crap for almost 3 years strait... I've come to the conclusion that people wanting 1 to 1 mirrored TT figures (including the 10 second ROF) need to just stop posting...

Yet after hearing this crap from you people for three years straight, ive never seen any quantitative evidence presented, or an admission that this is the only game in the first person shooter WORLD that has pinpoint converging weapon systems nailing one single pixel.

Ive come to the conclusion that you just want to poptart mechs and would be much happier leaving MWO and going and playing Hawken.

[KraftySOT]

And of course it has NOTHING to do with being skill based.

Where is the skill? Anyone can move a mouse. There is nothing to have skill at. Skill at moving a mouse?

The skill comes in, in the same place it comes in, in the TT...in mech choice/design, positioning, and team work.

Three years and you guys are still saying the same stupid thing. "This isnt the TT because you can aim", without ever admitting, that if you had a system LIKE EVERY OTHER SHOOTER IN THE WORLD...it would be the TT, and you would still be aiming.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 21 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Yet after hearing this crap from you people for three years straight, ive never seen any quantitative evidence presented, or an admission that this is the only game in the first person shooter WORLD that has pinpoint converging weapon systems nailing one single pixel.

Ive come to the conclusion that you just want to poptart mechs and would be much happier leaving MWO and going and playing Hawken.

well, dunno for sure if it's the ONLY one, but it does seem to be pretty much the exception.

I have my opinions on how to fix that, but well, yeah, you know, it gets adversarial around here fast if you try to take away the pick a pixel aiming from flying mechs at moving targets 1000 meters out.

[stjobe]

lartfor, on 21 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

You missed the part that it was balanced FOR dice rolling hexagrid table top combat, not a skill based suedo mech sim...

After hearing this crap for almost 3 years strait... I've come to the conclusion that people wanting 1 to 1 mirrored TT figures (including the 10 second ROF) need to just stop posting...

And I've heard the same lame "buh-buh-buh mah skillz" bovine manure for just as long from people apparently losing their reading comprehension and their common sense at the merest mention of the word "random" or "table top".

Where do you think the 5 damage of the ML comes from? How do you believe that number is connected to the armour values? Heat values? To the pseudo-random hit location system? How do you imagine that value and the other weapon values interact when you start to give the weapons differing rates of fire? How do you think the longevity of a 'mech is affected by having four medium lasers behave like one 20-damage mega-laser?

Do you have even the slightest inkling of an idea of what game balance entails?

If so, why don't you come up with a substantial argument instead of the "stop posting" drivel, it's inane and I'm frankly tired of hearing people complaining about BattleTech in a freaking MechWarrior game.

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 September 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

well, dunno for sure if it's the ONLY one, but it does seem to be pretty much the exception.

I have my opinions on how to fix that, but well, yeah, you know, it gets adversarial around here fast if you try to take away the pick a pixel aiming from flying mechs at moving targets 1000 meters out.

I know and its ridiculous.

Its one of the biggest issues, that tons of other issues stem from.

[n r g]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 September 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

um...kind of the point I was making. If you want super faced paced and exciting, you are playing the wrong game, from the wrong IP.

GGClose?

yeah but you are insinuating even slightly modding this game would turn MWO into a twitch based game or even close.

so I was firmly stating that this game is another universe compared to those games, and you could buff and modify this game to any one's taste and it wouldn't come close to a fast paced shooter so open your mind a bit.

Edited by E N E R G Y, 21 September 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 21 September 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

And of course it has NOTHING to do with being skill based.

Where is the skill? Anyone can move a mouse. There is nothing to have skill at. Skill at moving a mouse?

The skill comes in, in the same place it comes in, in the TT...in mech choice/design, positioning, and team work.

Three years and you guys are still saying the same stupid thing. "This isn't the TT because you can aim", without ever admitting, that if you had a system LIKE EVERY OTHER SHOOTER IN THE WORLD...it would be the TT, and you would still be aiming.

perhaps if the epeen could be reduced enough to have the term "skill based" replaced with "reflex based".... reflexes being a an inherent talent or ability, not really a teachable skill? Because I freely admit, those HoL and SJR guys all pretty much got way better reflexes than me.

The day I see an M1A1 abrams moving at flank speed over rough terrain and aiming pinpoint with a mouse, I reckon I will concede that situational or conditional CoF obviate skill.

But I would say the men and women who drive them, shoot real guns and overcome all kinds of imperfect aiming scenarios, have more "skill" than anyone playing this game.

Sadly, it seems people don't like to acknowledge that real skill comes from acknowledging that there are always outside influences introducing "RNG" into taking a shot, and knowing when to, and when not to, take the shot and make it work, anyhow.