337 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 21 September 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

Are you kidding? I'm hoping for battalion sized battles.

only if we get maps 5x the size of Alpine, thx.

[101011]

KraftySOT, on 21 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

BS

Evidence, quantifiable evidence...or youre just spewing.

Okay, sure. Take this TDR-5SS against this JM6-S in a 1v1 duel, with all weapons on chainfire. Then tell me which one wins. (Hint, it is not the Thud)

EDIT: I misspoke, and meant to say FLD.

Edited by 101011, 21 September 2014 - 10:40 AM.

[KraftySOT]

101011, on 21 September 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Okay, sure. Take this TDR-5SS against this JM6-S in a 1v1 duel, with all weapons on chainfire. Then tell me which one wins. (Hint, it is not the Thud)

Thats not evidence lol thats speculation. Until that test has actually been run, its just spew.

Given the terrain and other variables, either mech could win. Infact the pulser is going to be doing more damage, faster. The guass has that silly charge up time making it annoying to use. The Thud is just blastin away without a care in the world.

Positioning would have more to do with who wins than the weapons. One gets behind the other, or gets the first shots in...thats the winner.

AND THATS OK.

And lets add in that weapons arent pinpoint accurate...not even the gauss. Something people would like to see..

Then its really a toss up. The battle will go on a for a while, with the gausser trying to keep out of the pulsers range, and the pulser trying to close. Good pilots wont just rush each other to point blank range firing away...and no 1v1s exist.

Even if the 1v1 test was done, its completely unrelateable to the environment which our mechs actually perform in. The 12v12 group or solo que.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 September 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[101011]

KraftySOT, on 21 September 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Thats not evidence lol thats speculation. Until that test has actually be run, its just spew.

Given the terrain and other variables, either mech could win. Infact the pulser is going to be doing more damage, faster. The guass has that silly charge up time making it annoying to use. The Thud is just blastin away without a care in the world.

Positioning would have more to do with who wins than the weapons. One gets behind the other, or gets the first shots in...thats the winner.

AND THATS OK.

Well, if you would like to try that out against me, I would be more than willing. Positioning won't help when you have to chainfire all your weapons.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 September 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

only if we get maps 5x the size of Alpine, thx.

I just came from Alpine. It was disgustingly TimidWarriorOnline. A battalion-sized push would have shaken things up.

[KraftySOT]

101011, on 21 September 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well, if you would like to try that out against me, I would be more than willing. Positioning won't help when you have to chainfire all your weapons.

If there was a way to do that, I absolutely would.

And of course positioning will help. With med lasers and large pulses, ill work through that chain fire in less than a second. If I can get behind you, youre dead.

If you can keep me from getting close to you, youre going to kill me with gauss.

Ideally we'd do the test twice, once with me being the pulser, the next with you. The idea is the same. Pulser has to get close where the gauss rifles are a pain in the ass to fire, and then just hit the mouse button repeatedly.Gausser has to keep the pulser away where the lasers dmg is in fall off, and youre still doing 15 FLD

Though at least theres no 30 point alpha to worry about.

And in a full 12 on 12 game...the idea remains the same. Let the gausser engage someone, flank, shoot back. You put 6 armor in yer rear right and left torso. Gimmie 4 seconds of being behind you, ill take a gauss from ya, chain fire or not.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 September 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 21 September 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I just came from Alpine. It was disgustingly TimidWarriorOnline. A battalion-sized push would have shaken things up.

Because timid players and bad map design.

Every map has a single "dominant" feature, a Derp Ring.

90% of players overlook the rest of the map in favor of said derp rings. About the only one I regularly see that pattern broken on these days is Trampoline, where it's all about the E7 grid now, instead of the Star Gate.

Smart players realize that the entire southern part of Alpine is a great battlefield clear of the range of people on Candy Mountain.

But your Battalion v Battalion won't change mentality. It'll just be bigger death balls and Zerg Rushes, and 64 arty or air strikes per match.

Big improvement.

Until we have maps large enough for actual maneuvers (sorry but even the Comps basically just Zerg and Focus.... it's effective because the maps suck and so do most players, at least at teamwork) and strategy and tactics, with multiple objective areas, etc, and making real scouting useful, this will just be TDM on various scales.

[KraftySOT]

10.6 damage and youre wide open, by the time with net lag you realize youve been hit, ive hit it for another 10.6, then the med lasers come in. If I can get you to dance and twist for damage...ill tag it again and again. Youll be at a huge disadvantage before youve fired a shot.

Of course positioning matters.

It might not batter in another scenario, but the two given designs? I mean that Jager doesnt have the back protection it should, simply because its mounting such a ridiculous loadout. I have no problem with 2 gauss rifles on a jager...since like that design shows...you have to make concessions.

Two rapid mouse clicks from behind and that Jager is toast. Its only got 36 total points to neuter either gauss.

You know...congradulations, you just made a bad Rifleman design.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 September 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[PostalPatriot]

Russ Bullock, on 19 September 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

It is a scenario that could be likely. However we are getting close to releasing the full IS Quirk pass and it will put some more armor and Internals on mechs in the right places so I need to see how that plays first. I am hoping we can accomplish it this way instead of a blanket increase.

Having played in the days of 8v8 the 12v12 personally the 8v8s were far more satisfying in match time. Curious if you have stats for the speed of death between the two. Personally i would rather have a LONG, slug fest then this 12 man focus on one instant death buisness. I think its further away from what you were going for in terms of lances operating away from each other. All it really does is encourage people to group up into one giant mass.

Edited by PostalPatriot, 21 September 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

PostalPatriot, on 21 September 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Having played in the days of 8v8 the 12v12 personally the 8v8s were far more satisfying in match time. Curious if you have stats for the speed of death between the two. Personally i would rather have a LONG, slug fest then this 12 man focus on one instant death buisness.

doesn't help that all the old maps are too small for 12 v 12.

They need to expand those, aor set MM for 8 man drops on the old maps....since that is what they were designed around.

[n r g]

Xetelian, on 20 September 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

Please double it. Just double it. Don't screw around with Quirks that new people aren't going to understand plainly. Just up the survival time to twice as long as it is now. No mess, no noobs harmed and we all get to see what running out of ammo looks like before getting either 3 kills or dying.

Really please double armor.

revised

Edited by E N E R G Y, 21 September 2014 - 11:23 AM.

[101011]

KraftySOT, on 21 September 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

If there was a way to do that, I absolutely would.

And of course positioning will help. With med lasers and large pulses, ill work through that chain fire in less than a second. If I can get behind you, youre dead.

If you can keep me from getting close to you, youre going to kill me with gauss.

Ideally we'd do the test twice, once with me being the pulser, the next with you. The idea is the same. Pulser has to get close where the gauss rifles are a pain in the ass to fire, and then just hit the mouse button repeatedly.Gausser has to keep the pulser away where the lasers dmg is in fall off, and youre still doing 15 FLD

Though at least theres no 30 point alpha to worry about.

And in a full 12 on 12 game...the idea remains the same. Let the gausser engage someone, flank, shoot back. You put 6 armor in yer rear right and left torso. Gimmie 4 seconds of being behind you, ill take a gauss from ya, chain fire or not.

There is such a thing as a private lobby, you know, where we can put all this talk to the test

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 September 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Because timid players and bad map design.

Every map has a single "dominant" feature, a Derp Ring.

90% of players overlook the rest of the map in favor of said derp rings. About the only one I regularly see that pattern broken on these days is Trampoline, where it's all about the E7 grid now, instead of the Star Gate.

Smart players realize that the entire southern part of Alpine is a great battlefield clear of the range of people on Candy Mountain.

But your Battalion v Battalion won't change mentality. It'll just be bigger death balls and Zerg Rushes, and 64 arty or air strikes per match.

Big improvement.

Until we have maps large enough for actual maneuvers (sorry but even the Comps basically just Zerg and Focus.... it's effective because the maps suck and so do most players, at least at teamwork) and strategy and tactics, with multiple objective areas, etc, and making real scouting useful, this will just be TDM on various scales.

Yup.

The maps are bad. The mapsheets in BTech were bad. This game tries to make choke points, and elevated terrain and what not, and I just dont think thats really conducive of what MW is supposed to be. Its Sitzkrieg. With some jumping.

It was a really big improvement in the board game when I realized, hey I can take all 8 of these mapsheets and stick em together, and do some double blind rules on a piece of paper with my friend.

All of a sudden were scouting around for each others mech ball, which totally happened in the TT, because, like real life, you want to make contact with the smallest force possible, rapidly build up a volume of fire, and gain fire superiority...and the game really took off to new strategic and tactical heights. All of a sudden im scouring the rule books for rules I never noticed before, like sensors, and indirect fire...

I definitely think this game needs bigger maps, and more varied objectives. Even things where the two teams are trying to complete the same thing first.

CW has some aspects I like in the design doc they posted about the maps...but then again it sounds like just giant versions of what we have now, with arbitrary choke points, and weird "doors" that lights can jump over that go down after some obscure game device is triggered.

101011, on 21 September 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

There is such a thing as a private lobby, you know, where we can put all this talk to the test

Can you 1 on 1 in a private lobby? I had no idea.

Do I have to buy these mechs? I dont have either of them. Id say we do the same thing with my pulser banshee, but its just slow.

[IceSerpent]

Mystere, on 21 September 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I just came from Alpine. It was disgustingly TimidWarriorOnline. A battalion-sized push would have shaken things up.

Mystere, the number of players in the match is limited more by technical considerations (i.e. how much stuff can be processed by the server without too much lag and how much stuff your video card can render without going into a slide show), than by map size.

[Bishop Steiner]

IceSerpent, on 21 September 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Mystere, the number of players in the match is limited more by technical considerations (i.e. how much stuff can be processed by the server without too much lag and how much stuff your video card can render without going into a slide show), than by map size.

draw call levels are already issues often enough. Especially i notice on some LRM heavy matches. Would Just LOVE to see what would happen with 3x the number of calls.

[KraftySOT]

TDR-5SS

I would change your design though to this^

Cause frankly arm mounted is ridiculous, when im gonna use those arms to soak up guasses if I cant get behind you. And I dont see the benefit to all those med lasers when I get more DPS with two med pulses, and can throw on an extra heat sink to keep me firing.

[101011]

KraftySOT, on 21 September 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Can you 1 on 1 in a private lobby? I had no idea.

Do I have to buy these mechs? I dont have either of them. Id say we do the same thing with my pulser banshee, but its just slow.

Yes, you can, though you need premium time.

[PANZERKAT]

E N E R G Y, on 21 September 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Everyone look at all newbs/baddies crying out for a double armor increase...


Gotta love how some bad players refuse to ever get better, and instead focus their energy on finding loopholes and scapegoats to change game mechanics rather than practice (lol)

Great, I can see it now, a bunch of slow atlas' running in the open like imbeciles thinking they are immune to fire because they have "double armor".

It s not about getting better, being bad or l2p. The game was better when mechs weren't turning into heated mist before our eyes.

There are plenty of games where you die in a split second. I suggest playing one of those twitch games. The doubled the armour over TT standards because they were too low and would have been even worse, they can do something similar again across the board to give mechs a little more staying power.

And that's sort of what an Atlas did by the way.

[KraftySOT]

Course I dont have 10 million cbills to drop on it..but I do think ive found my next pulser.

Also this:

TDR-5SS

Id feel pretty confident against your chain firing double gauss and med lasers.

101011, on 21 September 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Yes, you can, though you need premium time.

And I dont have any of that

And damnit why isnt our mechlab like this ffs

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 September 2014 - 11:24 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And damnit it looks like im going to have to actually spend some money...i DO want to do these tests, can I friend you ingame or something (never used the social aspects of MWO) like that so we can figure this out after I figure out my CC situation and if I actually want to drop some money into this horrible travesty.

Whats the smaaallest amount of money I can spend to make this happen.